Alpha Male Contest

[Gary]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

Okay. If it's 'me, myselves and I', then really, it's all about you. Go for it. Collectively, you're a badass.

 

And I restate: it's not metagaming, it's the clearest way to make the distinction I see. A humanoid rocky statue being animated by their will to bash the enemy = an extension of your personal power. Most interpretations of a Golem, however, are essentially - you called in your robot buddy.

 

 

That's an artificial distinction. If a wizard summons a demon or elemental and dominates its will, it's an extension of his personal power as well. Probably more so than a humanoid rocky statue.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

That's an artificial distinction. If a wizard summons a demon or elemental and dominates its will' date=' it's an extension of his personal power as well. Probably more so than a humanoid rocky statue.[/quote']

 

Extension of his power, yes. It clearly makes him more powerful.

 

So does any kind of ally. Or a cosmic plot device.

 

But neither of those prove superiority of your own abilities.

 

'Creeping Doom' or 'Rocky Statue of Fighting' makes something harmless dangerous. Gate just calls in help from somewhere else, help that isn't dependent on your own powers to be dangerous.

 

If it would be no less powerful if you weren't there, it has no reflection on how powerful you are.

[Gary]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

Extension of his power, yes. It clearly makes him more powerful.

 

So does any kind of ally. Or a cosmic plot device.

 

But neither of those prove superiority of your own abilities.

 

'Creeping Doom' or 'Rocky Statue of Fighting' makes something harmless dangerous. Gate just calls in help from somewhere else, help that isn't dependent on your own powers to be dangerous.

 

If it would be no less powerful if you weren't there, it has no reflection on how powerful you are.

 

 

I disagree. 'Creeping Doom' or 'Rocky Statue of Fighting' is still dangerous, even if you aren't around. A gigantic carpet of stinging and biting insects is dangerous no matter how you slice it.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

I disagree. 'Creeping Doom' or 'Rocky Statue of Fighting' is still dangerous' date=' even if you aren't around. A gigantic carpet of stinging and biting insects is dangerous no matter how you slice it.[/quote']

 

Ah, but you've actually got to organise/animate them... if you then take a nap, they go back to being harmless.

 

-The Creeping Doom finds other insects to eat if not maintained.

 

The Demon however...

[Gary]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

Ah, but you've actually got to organise/animate them... if you then take a nap, they go back to being harmless.

 

-The Creeping Doom finds other insects to eat if not maintained.

 

The Demon however...

 

 

Or they might go on a rampage and eat/destroy every village in sight. Or the Demon might prove to be harmless without the wizard guiding it and giving it power. You simply can't make blanket statements.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

Or they might go on a rampage and eat/destroy every village in sight. Or the Demon might prove to be harmless without the wizard guiding it and giving it power. You simply can't make blanket statements.

 

And a Fireball could burn down a small town... or a large one.

 

A Demon that is powerless without a Wizard with their hand up... without a Wizard puppeteering it...

 

Look. My definition is 'Summon' (the _Power_) = Not 'manly'. I've said this twice, and you call it 'metagaming'. It's not metagaming. It's the fact that powers which I'd write up as Summon, are the kinds that don't qualify... because I use the same damn criteria.

 

If it is best done as a summon, then it makes not a weapon (offensive power) but an ally (NPC).

 

So, if you create demons that do thing as the SFX for your EB/TK/Whatever... then it's 'manly'. If you summon demons to be your henchmen, then you should not fight alongside them to prove your dominance. If either they, or you, alone can't win... then you ARE outclassed, even if you can gang tackle them to beat them.

[Gary]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

And a Fireball could burn down a small town... or a large one.

 

A Demon that is powerless without a Wizard with their hand up... without a Wizard puppeteering it...

 

Look. My definition is 'Summon' (the _Power_) = Not 'manly'. I've said this twice, and you call it 'metagaming'. It's not metagaming. It's the fact that powers which I'd write up as Summon, are the kinds that don't qualify... because I use the same damn criteria.

 

If it is best done as a summon, then it makes not a weapon (offensive power) but an ally (NPC).

 

So, if you create demons that do thing as the SFX for your EB/TK/Whatever... then it's 'manly'. If you summon demons to be your henchmen, then you should not fight alongside them to prove your dominance. If either they, or you, alone can't win... then you ARE outclassed, even if you can gang tackle them to beat them.

 

 

And my definition is clearly different from yours. It is metagaming to declare that a Summoned Demon who grabs his foe is 'unmanly', but if that same Summoned Demon is built as Telekinesis and grabs his foe, it's somehow considered 'manly'. A Demon clawing someone can be built two ways, using the Summon power, and as an indirect RKA. I don't see why building the power one way is any different from the other, especially from the point of view of one of the participants.

[Mentor]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

And my definition is clearly different from yours. It is metagaming to declare that a Summoned Demon who grabs his foe is 'unmanly'' date=' but if that same Summoned Demon is built as Telekinesis and grabs his foe, it's somehow considered 'manly'. A Demon clawing someone can be built two ways, using the Summon power, and as an indirect RKA. I don't see why building the power one way is any different from the other, [b']especially from the point of view of one of the participants[/b].

Nobody who can summon anything that can wipe out enemies or burn down a town can be called a girlie man. Even a girl summoning the Demon is a girlie girl...or whatever she wants to be called.

[zornwil]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

I can see TK instead of Summon if the effect is in fact limited to what TK can do. The TK could actually be in fact somewhat limited - TK only when a rock form is around to be animated.

 

Somewhere along the line I missed why this rock form (as the example) was said by WW to be capable of doing more than the declared TK abilities?

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

And my definition is clearly different from yours. It is metagaming to declare that a Summoned Demon who grabs his foe is 'unmanly'' date=' but if that same Summoned Demon is built as Telekinesis and grabs his foe, it's somehow considered 'manly'. A Demon clawing someone can be built two ways, using the Summon power, and as an indirect RKA. I don't see why building the power one way is any different from the other, [b']especially from the point of view of one of the participants[/b].

 

One type of summon will remain when the wizard dies. The OTHER is the direct extension of their will. Even a mindless automaton has enough autonomy to break that dichotomy...

 

One is handling it yourself, as modified by the existence of magic.

The other is getting an underling to help you out, as modified by the existence of magic.

[Gary]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

One type of summon will remain when the wizard dies. The OTHER is the direct extension of their will. Even a mindless automaton has enough autonomy to break that dichotomy...

 

One is handling it yourself, as modified by the existence of magic.

The other is getting an underling to help you out, as modified by the existence of magic.

 

 

So according to you, Summon Golem where the Golem stays around after the Wizard's death is verboten and "getting and underling to help you out", but Summon Golem where the Golem disintegrates after the Wizard's deat is ok and considered "handling it yourself".

 

Sorry, that's an artificial distinction.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

So according to you, Summon Golem where the Golem stays around after the Wizard's death is verboten and "getting and underling to help you out", but Summon Golem where the Golem disintegrates after the Wizard's deat is ok and considered "handling it yourself".

 

Sorry, that's an artificial distinction.

 

One is a 'puppet', the other is a 'robot'.

[Nightfire]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

One is a 'puppet'' date=' the other is a 'robot'.[/quote']

 

 

The more I follow this thread, which I started, the more I see a crucial element of the whole Alpha Male contest. It's not just that the outsiders must agree, the combtants must also. It seems the summon camp (S) believes that their greatest strength is to summon, that it is a valid means of winning and the Power within camp (PWI) scoffs at the idea. so the resolution is for each to beath the other at his own game. The "S" must bring fouth things with the raw inner power they lack (or are reluctant to weild) to overwhelm the "PWI" who will simply have to smackdown everything the summon whips up (if possible after whipping the stuffing out of the summoner first). In other words, Take out the summoner, and then deal with the summoned, if possible, or beat the summoned with summoner. Either way works.

[OddHat]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

The more I follow this thread' date=' which I started, the more I see a crucial element of the whole Alpha Male contest. It's not just that the outsiders must agree, the combtants must also. It seems the summon camp (S) believes that their greatest strength is to summon, that it is a valid means of winning and the Power within camp (PWI) scoffs at the idea. so the resolution is for each to beath the other at his own game. The "S" must bring fouth things with the raw inner power they lack (or are reluctant to weild) to overwhelm the "PWI" who will simply have to smackdown everything the summon whips up (if possible after whipping the stuffing out of the summoner first). In other words, Take out the summoner, and then deal with the summoned, if possible, or beat the summoned with summoner. Either way works.[/quote']

 

I see it differently. The posters are locked in a death-struggle to determine the Alpha-Poster of the Hero Boards, with associated mating rights (well, none really) and teritorial dominance ("I Rule This Thread!"). Any arguments you may think you see are merely the electronic version of the beating of chests and flinging of, well, something unpleasant.

[zornwil]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

The more I follow this thread' date=' which I started, the more I see a crucial element of the whole Alpha Male contest. It's not just that the outsiders must agree, the combtants must also. It seems the summon camp (S) believes that their greatest strength is to summon, that it is a valid means of winning and the Power within camp (PWI) scoffs at the idea. so the resolution is for each to beath the other at his own game. The "S" must bring fouth things with the raw inner power they lack (or are reluctant to weild) to overwhelm the "PWI" who will simply have to smackdown everything the summon whips up (if possible after whipping the stuffing out of the summoner first). In other words, Take out the summoner, and then deal with the summoned, if possible, or beat the summoned with summoner. Either way works.[/quote']

Hard to come to an agreement when you're dead.

 

So whoever strikes first pretty much wins...

 

[Gary]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

One is a 'puppet'' date=' the other is a 'robot'.[/quote']

 

 

Nope, both are puppets.

[Archangel Gabri]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

There are clearly (at least) two different issues being debated here:

1) In a 'Manly Man' contest for who's the most macho, what abilities should be forbidden as 'girlie'?

2) What truly constitutes a contest for dominance in the 'Alpha Male' sense.

 

These are easy to get crossed up, since they bump into each other anyway.

 

My $.02:

1) The distinction that powers that are 'part' of you should be allowed, and powers that bring in outside aid should not, while admittedly arbitrary, is still accurate within context.

I disagree that this should be dependent in any way on game mechanics. I believe this is an issue of special effects. If you call upon an outside power to appear and smack down your foes, that power ought not be used in this fight (unless it's your only real power and the contest is "I can beat up your pet demon.")

 

2) As has been said, the rules for social dominance are complex, fluid, and utterly dependent on the sociocultural context of the creatures involved. Human males most definitely do engage in social dominance behavior. All social animals do. Our rules are just way more inscrutable than those of wolves.

If you need proof of humanity's charter membership in the social dominance club, just watch a group of men while they watch a sporting event (especially football or basketball).

[Dog Soldier]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

I actually thought about this thread last night at martial arts class. I went in early to assist, I'm a 3rd degree black belt. The lead instructor is 4th degree, anyway, I briefly left the mat to adjust my safety equipment and Mr. O called me over to rebuke me for leaving a lower rank in charge. I explained and all was forgiven. The point was that my infraction was a perceived lack of dominance by me. You could say that he's the Alpha Male there, he enforces the hierarchy and expects the same from me.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

Nope' date=' both are puppets.[/quote']

 

No. The 'robot', while incapable of independent THOUGHT, is capable of independent action.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

I see it differently. The posters are locked in a death-struggle to determine the Alpha-Poster of the Hero Boards' date=' with associated mating rights (well, none really) and teritorial dominance ("I Rule This Thread!"). Any arguments you may think you see are merely the electronic version of the beating of chests and flinging of, well, something unpleasant. [/quote']

 

(bzzt) Bad hat. Bad, bad, bad hat.

[OddHat]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

(bzzt) Bad hat. Bad' date=' bad, bad hat.[/quote']

 

Well you'll never become Alpha-Poster that way.

[Gary]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

No. The 'robot'' date=' while incapable of independent THOUGHT, is capable of independent action.[/quote']

 

 

Nope, some robots are and some aren't capable of independent action. Some require orders from their master to do anything.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

Nope' date=' some robots are and some aren't capable of independent action. Some require orders from their master to do anything.[/quote']

 

...and since that makes them dependent on the caster, that's okay by me. That makes them a 'puppet', not a 'robot'.

[Gary]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

...and since that makes them dependent on the caster' date=' that's okay by me. That makes them a 'puppet', not a 'robot'.[/quote']

 

 

So Summon 300 pt Demon, special effect that the demon is grabbed from the 342nd Layer of Abyss is "unmanly", but Summon 300 pt Demon with exactly the same stats, but with special effect that the caster turns a nearby rock into the demon, is "manly"?

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

So Summon 300 pt Demon' date=' special effect that the demon is grabbed from the 342nd Layer of Abyss is "unmanly", but Summon 300 pt Demon with [b']exactly[/b] the same stats, but with special effect that the caster turns a nearby rock into the demon, is "manly"?

 

Well, no. As with any time I reference mechanics, it's function, not sfx that matters...

 

If the 'rock-demon' has to be constantly directed, it's an extension. if it can be told to 'go hurt that guy' and will do so without having to be told 'punch now, choke now, grab now....' it has independent action.

 

If it does require constant prodding, it's as directly controlled as 'fireball' or whatever.

 

It's what _translates as_ SPD advantage that's 'cheating'. It should be a process of one on one blow exchanges (or equivalent)....