Alpha Male Contest

[Nightfire]

In comics there are often battles between two people that be classified as Alpha Males. Normally these fights are between brick types or martial artists where there is little in question about what powers would be considered unfair to use. In a recent discussion with someone on this board, I made the contention that the use of Duplication/Summoning would be unfair powers to use. My reasoning is that in a traditional street fight where one person is trying to prove themself the Alpha, it would be forbidden by the rules of engagement for anyone else to join in the fight.

 

Both Duplication and Summoning are the introduction of additional players to the fiield. My worthy opponent says that they should be considered legitimate abilities, otherwise Strength, Dex , Con and Speed would be the only fair determining factors. His example is that some one who uses Evocation magic (i.e calling powers to the field) is the same as a Summoner calling monsters . . . I disagree because the evocation (or say for example the stuff that comes out of Green Lantern's Ring) is still under the direct control of the evoker, where as something from a summoner ( a monster, or in comic examples Duo Damsel) brings someone else to the field.

 

In the real would becoming the Alpha male of a group is a one on one struggle, granted powers skews this a bit, but I believe the same rules would apply. So I ask the group, would summoning/duplication be viable abilities in such a contest, or do they fall out side of the scope of what "macho" men would use to prove themselves the superior individual?

[proditor]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

No one can beat BULLDOZER!!! None of you scrawny whimps with yer fancy power rings and tightie whities on the outside, not one of you! I'd just grab yer head and...wait, what was the question?

[levi]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

Do you think that the groups represented by politicians don't help decide who the "Alpha Males" are in the political arena?

 

In the case of supers, specifically in Champions where points are paid for all abilities, saying that one type of powers is more or less acceptable in a battle is unfair. Now if one combatant were significantly higher in point totals than the other, that would seem unfair IMHO.

[Hermit]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

Depends on other factors such as cultural norms, upbringing, and so forth.

 

In a fantasy setting, for example, two conjurers might 'throw down' by each summoning the nastiest demon they could and forcing them to fight on their behalf. Not only is the summoner proving his power over his foe, but his control over his creature. Muy Magi Macho!

 

[Acroyear]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

In the straight fight, I actually wouldn't consider it "out of line" but I fully expect some witnesses say "psh, you needed your stupid pet dog to beat him."

[paigeoliver]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

I would consider summons to be completely out of order except in the case of the two wizards where BOTH are using summons.

 

Duplication is trickier.

 

If the characters primary power is duplication, and they make identical duplicates, then yes, go for it. But if the base character himself is a substantial one, then duplicates would be cheating for a one on one battle.

 

Case from the cinema.

 

The Matrix movies. Agent Smith has duplication. When he was just going after Neo he went after him with everything he had, but when him and Neo decided to fight one on one, then the duplicates stood on the sidelines and watched the fight, as Agent Smith is a substantial character without duplication.

 

In general though, a character who duplicator is NOT an alpha male though, so this power would be rare in a contest between alphas.

[Gary]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

I can just see an Evoker and a Conjuror trying to set up ground rules in a duel.

 

Evoker: Ok, magic missile, lightning bolt, fireball, cone of cold, and meteor swarm are all perfectly legal. However, Monster Summoning, Gate, and Conjure Elemental are strictly forbidden.

 

Conjuror: I'm not agreeing to these rules! You're nuts!

 

Evoker: Then you're not a manly man. You're a girly man.

 

Conjuror: $#@%#$%$#

[PoorWandering 1]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

It all depends on the purpose of the fight. if it is to some how decide who is tougher then preventing one side from ysing all the tools at their disposal would be unfair. Say the fight was between Cyclops and Wolvereen. Saying that Cyclops could not use his eye blasts would result in a false test. Or swap Mr. Fantastic for cyclops but don't let him use stretching powers. Its the same with summoning and duplication. If the powers are part of the charactor then they have a place in the test because they would have a place in a real fight. Now it would be quite questionable for say Nightcrawler to port out and port back into the ring with Beast riding along and beast is not part of nightcrawler but it would not be questionable assuming Dr. Strange was in the ring if he called on demons angels and amway salespersons. The summoning is part of the character and you see the same behavior when Strange is in a real fight. Now if the compatents want to agree in advance that's another story. Wolvereen and cyclops could go at it agreeing no claws no blasting in advance simply to see who is the more skilled HTH fighter but they would not be simulating a real fight. Like iu said it all depends on why you are fighting.

[OddHat]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

In a formal duel, the rules are whatever the duelists agree to.

 

In a schoolyard brawl, the looser will always claim that the winner "cheated".

 

In judging which of two Champions characters is tougher, it's idiotic to rule out key powers.

 

In a life-or-death struggle, the winner is the guy who is still moving around.

[jackalope]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

In the straight fight' date=' I actually wouldn't consider it "out of line" but I fully expect some witnesses say "psh, you needed your stupid pet dog to beat him."[/quote']

 

Ditto that.

 

If the fight is mano e mano, and you summon something to fight for you, then it's not really mano e mano, is it? Nope, because the summoner isn't fighting, his proxy is.

 

And that will forever cheapen any victory - and heap even more embarassment on the summoner should he lose ("Psh, you couldn't even beat him with the help of your stupid pet dog!").

 

EDIT: Also, almost by defintion, anyone who relies on Summoning to win fights is, by defintion, Not Macho. Hiding behind others and letting them win your fights for you is totally girlie.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

A win's a win. I'm actually more impressed with someone who out-thinks his opponent than someone who simply out-muscles him. If summoning stuff is your power, then not using it doesn't make you 'macho', it merely makes you stupid.

 

Of course, I never understood the point of these testosterone-fests, myself ...

[OddHat]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

EDIT: Also, almost by defintion, anyone who relies on Summoning to win fights is, by defintion, Not Macho. Hiding behind others and letting them win your fights for you is totally girlie.

 

Who's going to tell Patton?

 

[Lupus]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

Depends on other factors such as cultural norms, upbringing, and so forth.

 

In a fantasy setting, for example, two conjurers might 'throw down' by each summoning the nastiest demon they could and forcing them to fight on their behalf. Not only is the summoner proving his power over his foe, but his control over his creature. Muy Magi Macho!

 

Y'know, the Belgariad actually had some kinda cool ideas, for all its inanity, and this was one of them. Two wizards squared up and summoned demons - the trick was that you had to squeeze them into a certain shape. As long as you maintained concentration, and a clear image of the shape, you kept the demon bound. If you slipped, or made a mistake and thus lost concentration, or let yourself get distracted, you lost control of your demon. Which would then, most likely, eat you.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

Alpha Male fights are usually dominance fights.

 

Whose on top. Not just who is bigger, faster, stronger, better .. but who can win.

 

You can go on about "fairness" and "one on one" .. The true Alpha Male is someone who knows what resources are available and how to use those resources to remain "on top"

 

You don't go telling Mafia Don's they're wimps because he knows Bruno The Butcher will reorganize people's internal organs for him instead of him doing it himself.

 

If the two competitors are of the same nature then it would be expect that they would use similar tactics - two bricks would most likely just go at pounding each other.

 

If the two competitors are not of the same nature then why would it be "unfair" for each to use their own powers/methods available to them.

 

Johnny Summoner is disqualified from Alpha Fights because his area of talent is calling forth Chthuloid Monsters instead of using brute force to pound the enemy?

 

That sounds silly to me. You're not testing Alpha Status anymore, you're making it some kind of macho cage match endurance fight fit for pay per view. wow - that's exciting and different.

 

In a fight for Alpha Status their are no rules, no fairness and no honor. There is only proving your are mightier/better than your opponent to obtain that top spot.

 

In a Duel, it's something different where you are testing specific skills set forth by each combatant.

 

Don't get the two mixed up. Or Bruno The Butcher might have to pay you a visit...

[BNakagawa]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

Ackpht.

 

Anyone who resorts to any of the 1:5 constructs (followers, summons, vehicles, multiforms) and ESPECIALLY anyone who resorts to any of the +5: x2 adders has no place in an alpha male contest.

 

Inordinately powerful, sure.

 

But not macho.

[Nightfire]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

I would consider summons to be completely out of order except in the case of the two wizards where BOTH are using summons.

 

Duplication is trickier.

 

If the characters primary power is duplication, and they make identical duplicates, then yes, go for it. But if the base character himself is a substantial one, then duplicates would be cheating for a one on one battle.

 

Case from the cinema.

 

The Matrix movies. Agent Smith has duplication. When he was just going after Neo he went after him with everything he had, but when him and Neo decided to fight one on one, then the duplicates stood on the sidelines and watched the fight, as Agent Smith is a substantial character without duplication.

 

In general though, a character who duplicator is NOT an alpha male though, so this power would be rare in a contest between alphas.

 

Thanks Paigeoliver, that's my point exactly, the substantial unit (the original) is Alpha MAle of the Duplicates, to prove his toughness to another individual, he'd favorr the one on one. I think he might pop the duplicates for psychological warfare, perhaps the same for the summoner, (look at this arch-devil I summoned just to watch.)

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

Ackpht.

 

Anyone who resorts to any of the 1:5 constructs (followers, summons, vehicles, multiforms) and ESPECIALLY anyone who resorts to any of the +5: x2 adders has no place in an alpha male contest.

 

Inordinately powerful, sure.

 

But not macho.

 

And machismo is important ... why?

[Nightfire]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

A win's a win. I'm actually more impressed with someone who out-thinks his opponent than someone who simply out-muscles him. If summoning stuff is your power, then not using it doesn't make you 'macho', it merely makes you stupid.

 

Of course, I never understood the point of these testosterone-fests, myself ...

 

Buth this is a mach contest, a battle of wits is another matter entirely. Rarely can you have a macho man who is also a master of wit, but it can happen.

[Nightfire]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

And machismo is important ... why?

 

 

Well it would be important to two Alpha Males. Its a matter of control. Machismo is only important to the ones who want to be in control solely because they feel they are the ones who should be on top. For animals its for breeding rights, for superheroes, its bragging rights, or team leadership.

[Nightfire]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

Alpha Male fights are usually dominance fights.

 

Whose on top. Not just who is bigger, faster, stronger, better .. but who can win.

 

You can go on about "fairness" and "one on one" .. The true Alpha Male is someone who knows what resources are available and how to use those resources to remain "on top"

 

You don't go telling Mafia Don's they're wimps because he knows Bruno The Butcher will reorganize people's internal organs for him instead of him doing it himself.

 

If the two competitors are of the same nature then it would be expect that they would use similar tactics - two bricks would most likely just go at pounding each other.

 

If the two competitors are not of the same nature then why would it be "unfair" for each to use their own powers/methods available to them.

 

Johnny Summoner is disqualified from Alpha Fights because his area of talent is calling forth Chthuloid Monsters instead of using brute force to pound the enemy?

 

That sounds silly to me. You're not testing Alpha Status anymore, you're making it some kind of macho cage match endurance fight fit for pay per view. wow - that's exciting and different.

 

In a fight for Alpha Status their are no rules, no fairness and no honor. There is only proving your are mightier/better than your opponent to obtain that top spot.

 

In a Duel, it's something different where you are testing specific skills set forth by each combatant.

 

Don't get the two mixed up. Or Bruno The Butcher might have to pay you a visit...

 

 

For humans in the 21st century being aplha male IS a macho cage match, look at professional wrestling, the guy who picks up the chair is the bad guy, even if he wins. If two superheroes are duking it out for supremacy there is a sort of school yard set of rules that they fight by. Granted you can get away with a lot of things, but somethings make you the loser, even if the other guy is bleed ing on the floor at battle's end. If one fighter were to whip out a can of pepper spray (ie summon) then he's whimping out. There is a classif fight between BAtman and Guy Gardner (Green Lantern). Granted with the Ring Guy could beat BAts 9 ways to sunday, but sense the strugle between them was a chest beating seesion Guy forwent the use of the ring believing that his physical prowess was more than Bats. Batman laid him out in one punch, because all things being equal ( No ring for Guy/No Utility Gadgets for Bats) Bataman was actually more the Alpha Male.

 

 

Mafia Don's having a guy wacked is not an Alpha Male fight, its an Alpha male having a Beta male, rubbing out a gamma male. From the Stand point of sociology, it is his right to not bother doing his own scut work.

 

The discovery channel had an excellent example of a pure Alpha male fight a few years ago. One prehistoric leader had some animal tooth that was a symbol of his leadership, on a particular hunting trip he lost the tooth, and a would be rival found it. The Rival now declared himself (sans actual words, of course) leader, but the leader beat him to death and took it back. Remember for the most part superheroes are more like the chest beater than they are like the mafia dons, they don't have proxies fight for them.

[Guest Soulcatcher]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

Do you think that the groups represented by politicians don't help decide who the "Alpha Males" are in the political arena?

 

In the case of supers, specifically in Champions where points are paid for all abilities, saying that one type of powers is more or less acceptable in a battle is unfair. Now if one combatant were significantly higher in point totals than the other, that would seem unfair IMHO.

 

That would not be unfair. Who ever is the most powerful is the most powerful Alpha male. Points is an artificial meta-gaming concept not an RPG concept.

[Guest Soulcatcher]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

Alpha Male fights are usually dominance fights.

 

Whose on top. Not just who is bigger, faster, stronger, better .. but who can win.

 

You can go on about "fairness" and "one on one" .. The true Alpha Male is someone who knows what resources are available and how to use those resources to remain "on top"

 

You don't go telling Mafia Don's they're wimps because he knows Bruno The Butcher will reorganize people's internal organs for him instead of him doing it himself.

 

If the two competitors are of the same nature then it would be expect that they would use similar tactics - two bricks would most likely just go at pounding each other.

 

If the two competitors are not of the same nature then why would it be "unfair" for each to use their own powers/methods available to them.

 

Johnny Summoner is disqualified from Alpha Fights because his area of talent is calling forth Chthuloid Monsters instead of using brute force to pound the enemy?

 

That sounds silly to me. You're not testing Alpha Status anymore, you're making it some kind of macho cage match endurance fight fit for pay per view. wow - that's exciting and different.

 

In a fight for Alpha Status their are no rules, no fairness and no honor. There is only proving your are mightier/better than your opponent to obtain that top spot.

 

In a Duel, it's something different where you are testing specific skills set forth by each combatant.

 

Don't get the two mixed up. Or Bruno The Butcher might have to pay you a visit...

 

Very good comments.

[Guest Soulcatcher]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

The one thing is that you are applying an Alpha male challenge of the "street" to superpowered individuals. The contest is always to determine who is strongest and nature of the contest is dependant on the times and circumstances. During Napoleonic times it was duels and for medieval times it was jousting. These contests were typically done with individuals who used the Alpha male combat techniques of the times. Those techniques qualified you to be Alpha male.

 

For superpowered individuals it would probably encompass all their powers because superpowered individuals are all so different. It would be too difficult to establish ground rules that are fair to each combatant so that the only logical result is to have no-holds barred combat.

[OddHat]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

The one thing is that you are applying an Alpha male challenge of the "street" to superpowered individuals. The contest is always to determine who is strongest and nature of the contest is dependant on the times and circumstances. During Napoleonic times it was duels and for medieval times it was jousting. These contests were typically done with individuals who used the Alpha male combat techniques of the times. Those techniques qualified you to be Alpha male.

 

For superpowered individuals it would probably encompass all their powers because superpowered individuals are all so different. It would be too difficult to establish ground rules that are fair to each combatant so that the only logical result is to have no-holds barred combat.

 

Add to this, real world Alpha Male contests are situational. I think you can probably guess the age and employment situation of the posters by their responses to this question.

 

I'm fairly certain that I can physically beat up any male in my office. This would not make me the Alpha of the office; it would get me fired and jailed. In the real world prison system (as opposed to the movies), my ability to defeat individual prisoners in HTH would not make me the alpha of the cell block, though it might help. The Alpha of the cell block would be the prisoner who could get other prisoners to obey his order to hold me down and, well, make me really wish that I had not attempted to establish my office Alpha status Fight Club style.

 

The Alpha Male is the male who leads. Schoolyard rules do have meaning in context, but only in context.

[Nightfire]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

Add to this, real world Alpha Male contests are situational. I think you can probably guess the age and employment situation of the posters by their responses to this question.

 

I'm fairly certain that I can physically beat up any male in my office. This would not make me the Alpha of the office; it would get me fired and jailed. In the real world prison system (as opposed to the movies), my ability to defeat individual prisoners in HTH would not make me the alpha of the cell block, though it might help. The Alpha of the cell block would be the prisoner who could get other prisoners to obey his order to hold me down and, well, make me really wish that I had not attempted to establish my office Alpha status Fight Club style.

 

The Alpha Male is the male who leads. Schoolyard rules do have meaning in context, but only in context.

 

 

But if an alpha male contest comes up amongst supers it is a chest beating scenario. IF the leader is chosen through peaceful means, that's called and election, and persuasion (or intimidation) is the mechanism. It's true the Alpha-Male leads, but while I agree that the nature of the contest is situational, the situation in question is Superheroes, most times questions of leader ship are resolved in some civil manner, but the comic conventions say the stuffed shirts don't always talk: The Thing, The Hulk Green Arrow, Wolverine, sometimes Batman and always Lobo resort to the old fashion method of deciding who's the main man. Remember this is how supers (who really aren't worried about such namby pamby laws like Assault and BAttery) settle mano y mano issues.