Nightfire Posted September 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 Re: Alpha Male Contest Add to this, real world Alpha Male contests are situational. I think you can probably guess the age and employment situation of the posters by their responses to this question. Any my age and profession would be? And don't peak at my profile. You said guess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 Re: Alpha Male Contest Any my age and profession would be? And don't peak at my profile. You said guess Early thirties, computers or other technical field, not management? Just a guess, and a fairly safe one considering board demographics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 Re: Alpha Male Contest But if an alpha male contest comes up amongst supers it is a chest beating scenario. IF the leader is chosen through peaceful means' date=' that's called and election, and persuasion (or intimidation) is the mechanism. It's true the Alpha-Male leads, but while I agree that the nature of the contest is situational, the situation in question is Superheroes, most times questions of leader ship are resolved in some civil manner, but the comic conventions say the stuffed shirts don't always talk: The Thing, The Hulk Green Arrow, Wolverine, sometimes Batman and always Lobo resort to the old fashion method of deciding who's the main man. Remember this is how supers (who really aren't worried about such namby pamby laws like Assault and BAttery) settle mano y mano issues.[/quote'] Who wins an Alpha-Male contest in a Super Hero team is writer determined. Writer A can certainly put Superman under a "Red Sun Lamp" and have Batman establish his Alpha Male status by beating the crap out of him. Batman fans will say Batman won fair and square, proving he's the Alpha Male. Superman fans will point out that this is an unfair contest, the equivelant of putting a Karateka up against a school kid but only if the Karateka agrees to have his tendons cut before the contest. Which of them is the real Alpha comes down to which one can get the rest of the league to follow their orders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 Re: Alpha Male Contest I've been in a few fights .. not many, but just enough to learn one thing. You Do Not Fight Fair, Ever. If the guy is on the ground, attempt to collapse his chest in with kicks. If you have a knife and he doesn't don't put the knife away and put up your fists, stick the target. a lot. In a real fight, especially one with severe pain and death involved, it'd be stupid of you to fight with some kind of schoolyard set of rules. the Alpha Male is the guy who wins. Sure, in some controled environment with paramedics in the sidewings like wrestling we can all point and go "Hey! don't use the chair!! That's cheating!" and boo him off stage. On the street ... use the chair. Hell, us it multiple times. You're gonna need it when the friends of that guy you just pulped come out of the crowd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog Soldier Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 Re: Alpha Male Contest The whole alpha male thing is purely situational and exist within a small group. The alpha is "the big dog" and leader of the pack. I think it was an idea stolen from people that study wolf packs who named the male of the breeding pair the alpha male. Of course in wolf packs there's an alpha female who's the only female allowed to mate. Sort of wolf population control. It really doesn't translate well to humans as humans will work in teams, we don't produce whole litters of offspring and only screwball cults have one guy that gets all the sex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNakagawa Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 Re: Alpha Male Contest The whole alpha male thing strongly implies a 1v1 confrontation. You don't get to be the baddest kid in school because you bring your older brother who's in the army to the fight and he kicks the crap out of your rival. $0.02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 Re: Alpha Male Contest The whole alpha male thing strongly implies a 1v1 confrontation. You don't get to be the baddest kid in school because you bring your older brother who's in the army to the fight and he kicks the crap out of your rival. $0.02 You do get to be the baddest kid in school if you have a gang of friends who will act together to kick the crap out of your rivals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNakagawa Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 Re: Alpha Male Contest You do get to be the baddest kid in school if you have a gang of friends who will act together to kick the crap out of your rivals. No, then you're one member of the baddest gang in school. You, yourself have no legitimate claim to being the baddest kid in school by yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 Re: Alpha Male Contest The whole alpha male thing strongly implies a 1v1 confrontation. You don't get to be the baddest kid in school because you bring your older brother who's in the army to the fight and he kicks the crap out of your rival. $0.02 If I'm Insect King and my powers are to summon swarms of insects to defeat my foe, I'm no less of a badass than Brick Man who's super strong, or Blaster who shoots energy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightfire Posted September 26, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 Re: Alpha Male Contest No' date=' then you're one member of the baddest gang in school. You, yourself have no legitimate claim to being the baddest kid in school by yourself.[/quote'] Exactly, if Joe Average kicks the stuffing out of the leader of said gang, he gains the rep of top dog without having to slam the whole gang. If someone helps him then he hasn't proven satisfactorily that he's top dog. I'll grant that all alpha male fights are situation, but I still contend, iof you have to summon help "Magical beasts, your dog, or your big sister, then whter you winf the fight or not, you are not really the alpha male. You and your Magic Beast, you and your dog, or your big sister is the Alpha. There are countless movies, books and comics where the contender insists that he has to go the final fight alone, because he knows that the victory doesn't count if its many on one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Half Baked Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 Re: Alpha Male Contest The important thing to understand about alpha male contests is that the group decides the rules of engagement. To win the contest, the alpha male needs to win by the rules that the group sets. These rules are usually different to what is acceptable to a fight with an opponent outside the group. Sociologist call these two types of contests intraspecies and extraspecies and there are many examples in the animal kingdom. Intraspecies conflicts are intended to resolve disputes without fatality and usually involve impressive displays. Snakes don't tend to bite each other with mating rituals, but engage in pushing contests. Lions don't rend each other tooth and claw, but show off their mane and engage in strength costs. The examples are numerous and the more impressive looking the natural weaponry the less useful it tends to be in extraspecies contests. This extends into the world of man. Medieval knights jousted with specific rules to establish a pecking order. It was dangerous, but not intended to be fatal. If a knight cheated by using a longer lance, they would not be considered the victor by the spectators. However, when fighting outside their group they would happily cut down scores of peasants. The french knights would cut the fingers off captured english lowbowmen. Crossbows were banned by the Church and only permitted to be used against non-Christians. In other words, there were rules, written and unwritten, that determined the nature of combat between the alpha males of the medieval day. The Iliad set down the rules of combat for the Greeks. The entire work illustrates the difference between combat between alpha males and the rest.Paris is not an alpha male because he uses a bow and engages in sneaky long range attacks. His brother, Hector, is as he fights his foes at close range. How does this apply to a contest between Alpha Males in the super world? Well, what powers that are acceptable to use is determined by the group. Within a superteam they are unlikely to permit lethal attacks to determine the leader. They may permit the full use of their powers, as long as they are not dangerous. Within a villain organisation it may have different rules. A public battle between two rival heroes to show who is the best is making the general public and media the group. Most likely, any power that can be considered sneaky or deceptive will be disapproved of. Western society has strong echoes of the Iliad even today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiba Bob Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 Re: Alpha Male Contest The important thing to understand about alpha male contests is that the group decides the rules of engagement. To win the contest' date=' the alpha male needs to win by the rules that the group set.[/quote'] Interesting! Social counter-evolution in action. So you are saying that Alpha Male (primitive man) has built a social system based on physical prowess to protect himself for the emergence of the Omega Male (evolved man). That the rules of social superiority are engineered to reenforce Alpha Male egotism and to suppress eventual dawning of Omega Male mastery. This is to say, that someone like Bug Master, is socially inferior to The Rock because The Rock can punch Bug Master out with his fists while all that the Bug Master can do against The Rock is summon a billion killer bees and sting him to death. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog Soldier Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 Re: Alpha Male Contest Primate alpha male contest usually involve chest beating, screaming and throwing feces. I human terms this would translate into tearing the shirt off and trash talking possibly followed by some shoving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightfire Posted September 26, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 Re: Alpha Male Contest The important thing to understand about alpha male contests is that the group decides the rules of engagement. To win the contest, the alpha male needs to win by the rules that the group sets. These rules are usually different to what is acceptable to a fight with an opponent outside the group. Sociologist call these two types of contests **Snipp** How does this apply to a contest between Alpha Males in the super world? Well, what powers that are acceptable to use is determined by the group. Within a superteam they are unlikely to permit lethal attacks to determine the leader. They may permit the full use of their powers, as long as they are not dangerous. Within a villain organisation it may have different rules. A public battle between two rival heroes to show who is the best is making the general public and media the group. Most likely, any power that can be considered sneaky or deceptive will be disapproved of. Western society has strong echoes of the Iliad even today. Wow, you articulated my point better than I could. I would imagine in a fantasy mage battle summoners would be top dogs because magic is a sighn of prowess, a summon can fight a longer stronger battle, because less of his personal stength is needed to produce results. But Mages strength comes from their knowledge and application of power. Their contest would be quite different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightfire Posted September 26, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 Re: Alpha Male Contest Interesting! Social counter-evolution in action. So you are saying that Alpha Male (primitive man) has built a social system based on physical prowess to protect himself for the emergence of the Omega Male (evolved man). That the rules of social superiority are engineered to reenforce Alpha Male egotism and to suppress eventual dawning of Omega Male mastery. This is to say, that someone like Bug Master, is socially inferior to The Rock because The Rock can punch Bug Master out with his fists while all that the Bug Master can do against The Rock is summon a billion killer bees and sting him to death. . Omega male, I like that, The fact that sports draw more spectators than chess matches suggests that the Omega male is no where near ascendancy. We're still moved more by aderenaline than by beta waves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Half Baked Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 Re: Alpha Male Contest Interesting! Social counter-evolution in action. So you are saying that Alpha Male (primitive man) has built a social system based on physical prowess to protect himself for the emergence of the Omega Male (evolved man). That the rules of social superiority are engineered to reenforce Alpha Male egotism and to suppress eventual dawning of Omega Male mastery. This is to say, that someone like Bug Master, is socially inferior to The Rock because The Rock can punch Bug Master out with his fists while all that the Bug Master can do against The Rock is summon a billion killer bees and sting him to death. . LOL I'll do you the courtesy of treating that as a joke. I'm not saying that anyone has built the social system. Nor that the Alpha Male is primative and the Omega Male is evolved. The Omega Male's mastery will never dawn because they are by definition not the Alpha Male. What define's an Alpha Male may (and has) changed. It varies by social group to social group. A room of gaming geeks sets different qualities to judge the Alpha Male than a football team. Today's Omega Man may well be tomorrow's Alpha Male, but the Omega Man will never have mastery. They just receive the baton from the old bearers as they are crushed underfoot The Bug Master will never be the Alpha Male if the society that judges him thinks that being able to punch someone's lights out is more important than summoning killer bees. If the social group is a bunch of beekeepers then Bug Master would be considered the top of the heap. Only subservient to Queen Bee who takes pleasure it wrapping the Bug Master around her finger or whatever queen bees wrap the breeding males around. Wow' date=' you articulated my point better than I could. I would imagine in a fantasy mage battle summoners would be top dogs because magic is a sighn of prowess, a summon can fight a longer stronger battle, because less of his personal stength is needed to produce results. But Mages strength comes from their knowledge and application of power. Their contest would be quite different.[/quote'] Thanks, I'm glad you liked it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog Soldier Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 Re: Alpha Male Contest I don't think that there's any agreement on what constitutes an Alpha Male to begin with. What I think of when you say Alpha Male is obviously different from what some others think of. Given that fact there's not much chance of coming up with an Alpha Male Contest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 Re: Alpha Male Contest A challenge is issued, a challenge is accepted. The one whose left standing is the alpha male. The "alpha male" is the one who wins. You don't have to like how they won to accept that they won - unless you plan on issuing a challenge yourself. There are no niceties or ethical quandries involved. Someone came out on top and proved their dominance. Additionally - I tend to agree that social groups have their own "alphas" if we stretch the definition somewhat, but if that alphas dominance is rooted in their ability to manipulate social rules and not their ability to exert realpolitick dominiance, its not really what we're talking about here. Personally - If barbarian x and sorcerer y go head to head - the last man standing is the alpha - even if sorcerer y summoned up galactus to do barbarian x in - because in the end: the sorcerer demonstrated his dominance. And if people want to say: "you had to get galactus to do it for you," I suspect there will be a lot of silence when the sorcerer asks: "shall I have galactus do you to?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Half Baked Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 Re: Alpha Male Contest A challenge is issued' date=' a challenge is accepted. The one whose left standing is the alpha male. The "alpha male" is the one who wins. You don't have to like how they won to accept that they won - unless you plan on issuing a challenge yourself. There are no niceties or ethical quandries involved. Someone came out on top and proved their dominance.[/quote'] Not true. In Greek myths Paris killed Achilles in a battle of the Trojan War. Yet he was never considered an alpha male by the greeks. He did so from a distance without facing his foe. He won, but received no respect from his peers for winning. When you battle for social dominance beating the enemy is not the real victory. Convincing your peers that your victory gives you dominance over them is the real victory. It does not have to be explicitly stated, just acknowledged in some fashion. The "alpha male" contest is a social one, not a physical battle. You have to win within the "rules" of the contest to have really won. Additionally - I tend to agree that social groups have their own "alphas" if we stretch the definition somewhat' date=' but if that alphas dominance is rooted in their ability to manipulate social rules and not their ability to exert realpolitick dominiance, its not really what we're talking about here.[/quote'] They are not manipulating social rules, but winning according to accepted rules, acknowledged or unacknowledged. By doing so they are the considered the leader of their pack. Leadership is nothing to do with realpolitick, but perceptions of their status within the group. If they do not exert realpolitick dominance their leadership may come under pressure and their status challenged. It may also change the rules of engagment as the social group believes different qualities are important. Personally - If barbarian x and sorcerer y go head to head - the last man standing is the alpha - even if sorcerer y summoned up galactus to do barbarian x in - because in the end: the sorcerer demonstrated his dominance. And if people want to say: "you had to get galactus to do it for you' date='" I suspect there will be a lot of silence when the sorcerer asks: "shall I have galactus do you to?"[/quote'] Not really. The sorcerer's power means he is outside the society and more of a god than a member of it. A realworld analogy might be a 19th Century European with guns and technology. He can dominate the primative society, but is never accepted as part of it. As such he cannot truly be the alpha male. The sorcerer wins, but dominates society as an outsider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 Re: Alpha Male Contest Hiding behind others and letting them win your fights for you is totally girlie. Ja! Hear me now and believe me later! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNakagawa Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 Re: Alpha Male Contest Obviously, some people think that either Bill Gates or George W. bush is the most alpha male in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog Soldier Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 Re: Alpha Male Contest George Bush is THE Alpha Male in the world right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 Re: Alpha Male Contest Obviously' date=' some people think that either Bill Gates or George W. bush is the most alpha male in the world.[/quote'] Nah, both of those guys are wussies who let others do their fighting for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog Soldier Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 Re: Alpha Male Contest Alpha Male is a social/sexual term, why do you think that Presidential Candidates put their spouses and children on display? It has little to do with the ability if gain a submission in a wrestling match unless that particular society esteems wrestling as part of virility. Every married man is the Alpha Male in his own household. On the flip side their has been one Muay Thai champion that had a sex change upon retirement. He was an outstanding fighter but he was never an Alpha Male. Rogue or bachelor males aren't alpha Males either though a "lone wolf" may be a more capable combatant than the patriarch of some group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Half Baked Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 Re: Alpha Male Contest In Australia the alpha male is the man who takes over the BBQing from the host Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.