Charges on a Multipower's Reserve

JMHammer · October 31, 2004

This thread and this other thread reminded me of an issue I've had with Multipowers for a while:

If one were to purchase a Multipower like this (Example 1)-

30 30-point Multipower Reserve

3 u30-point power, 16 Charges

That's 42 points for a total of 64 shots.

But if one were to purchase a Multipower like this (Example 2)-

45 30-point Multipower Reserve, 64 Charges

3 u30-point power

That's 57 points for a total of 64 shots. The only advantage is that the charges aren't allocated to each of the slots in advance. For the sake of space I used only a 4-slot Multipower; but the more slots added, the less of an advantage applying additional charges to the Reserve appears to be.

And take a look at this (Example 3)-

45 45-point Multipower Reserve

4 u30-point power, 64 Charges

That's 61 points for 256 Charges with no less flexibility (because 64 charges are applied to each slot) than Example 2. I'll admit that 42-->57 points is a significant amount (15), but 57-->61 is only 4 more.

On the other hand, when one applies Charges with a Limitation value to the Reserve, at least the character gets a cost break on the price of the Reserve.

I've been turning around in my mind various ways of changing how Charges might function when the modifier is applied to a Multipower's Reserve and to a Multipower's slots. Essentially, I'm concerned that applying Charges to each Multipower Slot is much more cost-effective than applying Charges to a Multipower Reserve; which pushes players to therefore not apply Charges to the Reserve even when doing so might better fit their special effects (such as a weapon with one power source and many settings).

My first thought is to do the following when Charges are applied to a Multipower Reserve-

When Charges are applied to the Reserve of a Multipower, take the number of Slots purchased for that Multipower and multiply by one-half of the Charges applied to the Reserve. The result of that equation [(Slots)*(Charges applied to the Reserve*.5)] is the total number of Charges available for the entire Multipower.

This would result in the same number of Charges with 2 Slots, but if more than 2 Slots are purchased for the Multipower then the number of Charges increases.

Has anyone else given this some thought? If so, care to share?

Thanks,

John H

Sean Waters · October 31, 2004

Re: Charges on a Multipower's Reserve

I think the only way around it is to make your charcaters decide how the power works and model the effect from there. Charges on individual slots make more sense where you have clips of bullets with different effects, charges on the reserve work better for a laser with an adjustable beam type thing. I think both constructs have their place: if you've only bought 16 AP bullets then that is all you have, however many other bullets you might have brought with you.

You might, for balance reasons, want insist that slots taken with charges have to have the limitation 'Full phase to change slot' at -1/4 or even -0.

Because of the way the progression goes, doubling the number of charges for each level once it becomes an advantage, the numbers do get silly quickly, but I'd be inclined to call this one a ! WARNING ! than a system problem. The utility of having a huge number of charges is a diminishing returns thing - you are never going to use them all.

PhilFleischmann · November 1, 2004

Re: Charges on a Multipower's Reserve

The way I handle it is like this:

The Reserve must take the Charges Limitation or Advantage, based on the total number of shots in all of the slots, and the slots take their own limitation (or advantage) for the number of shots they have. Thus the slot limitation will always be lower (more of a limitation) than the Reserve's. Thus, using your examples:

Example 1 would be

45 30-point Multipower Reserve, 64 Charges

3 u30-point power, 16 Charges

That's 57 points for a total of 64 shots. Only 16 for each power.

Example 2 would be

45 30-point Multipower Reserve, 64 Charges

4 u30-point power, 64 Charges

That's 61 points for a total of 64 shots. Unrestricted allocation of charges to the slots. (Plus, you essentially save 2 points due to the slot costs rounding off in your favor.

Example 3 would have to be bought like this

60 30-point Multipower Reserve 256 Charges

4 u30-point power, 64 Charges

Which comes to 76 points (again saving 2 points in roundoffs), which allows 64 shots of each slot. At this point, you're probably better off just buying the whole thing at 0 END (unless one or more of the powers is Autofire).

On the limitation side, the numbers might look like this:

37 30-point Multipower Reserve, 32 Charges (example 4)

2 u30-point power, 8 Charges

Total: 45 points. Notice that the limitations on the slots add up to an Advantage on the Reserve.

30 30-point Multipower Reserve, 16 Charges (example 5)

1 u30-point power, 4 Charges

Total 34 points (again, saving 2 points due to roundoffs). Now the -1 lims add up to no lim.

15 30-point Multipower Reserve, 4 Charges (example 6)

1 u30-point power, 1 Charge

Total: 19 points. -2 lim on each slot, -1 lim on the reserve.

You could also allow for partial flexibility by reducing the lim on the slots:

30 30-point Multipower Reserve, 16 Charges (example 7)

2 u30-point power, 8 Charges

Total: 38 points. Now the whole MP can be used 16 times, each slot can be used up to 8 times. This provides more flexibility than example 5, but not as much as:

30 30-point Multipower Reserve, 16 Charges (example 8)

3 u30-point power, 16 Charges

Total: 42 points. The whole MP can be used 16 times, freely allocating the slots.

This seems the fairest way to me.

JMHammer · November 2, 2004

Re: Charges on a Multipower's Reserve

Phil,

That makes a lot of sense to me! Except...

How do you handle the situation where a Multipower includes some Slots with Charges and other Slots without Charges? This is a very common build among published characters and many of my own creations, and I'm not sure how they would be reconciled with your otherwise excellent resolution.

Thanks,

John H

PhilFleischmann · November 2, 2004

Re: Charges on a Multipower's Reserve

That's easy enough - you limit the slots that have charges, and don't limit the slots that don't have charges.

30 30-point Multipower Reserve, (example 9)

3 u30-point power, 16 Charges

2 u30-point power, 8 Charges

1 u30-point power, 1 Charge

3 u30-point power

The first slot can be used 16 times; the second one, eight times; the third, once. After you've used these 25 shots, you can use the fourth slot as many times as you want (though it might cost END).

JMHammer · November 2, 2004

Re: Charges on a Multipower's Reserve

Phil,

I follow what you're saying, but if you treat Multipowers with mixed Charges/No-Charges Slots that way then it obviates the entire point of treating Multipowers which only have Charges Slots in the manner you described in your previous message. You're right back to getting more and more charges by buying more Slots with the Charges Limitation without applying the Charges Limitation to the Reserve, which is the standard rule I feel needs some fixing as I described in the first message in this thread.

John H

PhilFleischmann · November 2, 2004

Re: Charges on a Multipower's Reserve

Whoops! :doi: You're right! Ignore my last post. :hush:

Let me try again:

60 30-point Multipower Reserve, Unlimited Charges (example 9 - revised)

3 u30-point power, 16 Charges

2 u30-point power, 8 Charges

1 u30-point power, 1 Charge

2 u30-point power, Costs END

The first slot can be used 16 times; the second one, eight times; the third, once. After you've used these 25 shots, you can use the fourth slot as many times as you want. (For an extra point, the fourth slot can be 0 END.)

Or if you prefer, you can reduce the Advantage on the Reserve to the maximum you feel you'll need in a day, and add the same advantage to the fourth slot, thusly:

45 30-point Multipower Reserve, 64 Charges (example 10)

3 u30-point power, 16 Charges

2 u30-point power, 8 Charges

1 u30-point power, 1 Charge

3 u30-point power, 64 Charges, Costs END

Do you think you'll need more than 64 shots per day?

How 'bout this construct:

37 30-point Multipower Reserve, 25 Charges (example 11)

3 u30-point power, 16 Charges

2 u30-point power, 8 Charges

1 u30-point power, 1 Charge

24 30-point power, Lockout: Can't use MP at the same time (-1/4?)

IOW, buy the unlimited charges powers outside the MP, or in a separate MP.

Yes. It is a little tricky.

Rapier · November 2, 2004

Re: Charges on a Multipower's Reserve

Points, points, points!!

SHEESH! I'm so sick of everything coming down to points!

I guess that is the nature of the beast, neh?

The SFX of the power must determine how the charges are bought. I can understand maximising a character with a couple of tweaks here and there (I myself tend to buy Characteristics in nice point friendly breaks), but CONCEPT is what is important.

Yes, you can min/max your way into cheesing out a significant number of uses in your multipower by creatively applying limitations, especially in a multipower. But the concept is what determines how the charges are purchased. I would never (well, maybe not never if the concept is tight enough) allow an archer character to purchase charges on his reserve (with arrows in the slots).

It is darn difficult to rationalise how a MP can be charged when you have tangible charges (eg arrows, bullets, etc). Not impossible, but rare.

JmOz · November 2, 2004

Re: Charges on a Multipower's Reserve

Points, points, points!!

SHEESH! I'm so sick of everything coming down to points!

I guess that is the nature of the beast, neh?

The SFX of the power must determine how the charges are bought. I can understand maximising a character with a couple of tweaks here and there (I myself tend to buy Characteristics in nice point friendly breaks), but CONCEPT is what is important.

Yes, you can min/max your way into cheesing out a significant number of uses in your multipower by creatively applying limitations, especially in a multipower. But the concept is what determines how the charges are purchased. I would never (well, maybe not never if the concept is tight enough) allow an archer character to purchase charges on his reserve (with arrows in the slots).

It is darn difficult to rationalise how a MP can be charged when you have tangible charges (eg arrows, bullets, etc). Not impossible, but rare.

To play devil's advocate:

An archer might have 32 charges that are not predetermined* representing what he can fit in the quiver

* or he may have to decide what he wants before he goes out, but can change everytime he is at home: 8 Glue's, 4 Fog's, 16 Electro, and 4 Broadheads

My personal method: I don't allow advantages on MP's at all (Bye the reserve up and put it on the slot).

If you want you can apply a -0 limit of X number (X>12) of charges to the reserve if you want (for that matter if you do I will probably give you an xp everytime you run out). If you want a laser pistol.

JMHammer · November 2, 2004

Re: Charges on a Multipower's Reserve

Rapier,

Well yes, this is The Hero System, so things do tend to come down to issues of cost and whether cost properly represents relative value.

Anyway: I agree that powers and equipment should be built in a manner so as to best represent the special effects. What I hope you might have inferred from my first message in this thread is that I think the costs which the official rules apply to Charges on a Multipower Reserve and/or Charges on Multipower Slots don't properly represent the relative value of the things which, in game terms, they emulate.

Here are two simple builds for an Archer's bow and arrows:

Example A

30 60-point Multipower Reserve, OIF Bow (-1/2), 12 Charges (-1/4), Must allocate the 12 Charges among the available arrow types and can only change that allocation "at base" (-1/4)

3 u4d6 RKA, OAF Arrow (-1)

3 u2 1/2d6 RKA, AP (+1/2), OAF Arrow (-1)

3 u12d6 EB, OAF Arrow (-1)

3 u6d6 Entangle, OAF Arrow (-1)

Example B

30 60-point Multipower Reserve, OIF Bow (-1/2), Some other Limitation - it doesn't matter exactly what it is as long as the value is (-1/2)

3 u4d6 RKA, OAF Arrow (-1), 16 Charges (-0)

3 u2 1/2d6 RKA, AP (+1/2), OAF Arrow (-1), 16 Charges (-0)

3 u12d6 EB, OAF Arrow (-1), 16 Charges (-0)

3 u6d6 Entangle, OAF Arrow (-1), 16 Charges (-0)

These are both reasonable ways of building a super-archer's bow and arrows but Example B is far better with more shots per slot than Example A has for the entire Multipower. Yet the cost is the same for both.

If you just don't allow Charges (neither as a Limitation nor as an Advantage) on Multipower Reserves, how will you represent, say, a ray gun with 32 shots but with 6 different settings? Without Charges on the Reserve, you can get a certain number of shots per setting, but not a total number of shots without regard to the setting used for each shot.

So I'm hoping we can explore here some alternatives to the official rules for handling the intersection of Multipowers and Charges.

John H

Rapier · November 2, 2004

Re: Charges on a Multipower's Reserve

To play devil's advocate:

An archer might have 32 charges that are not predetermined* representing what he can fit in the quiver

* or he may have to decide what he wants before he goes out, but can change everytime he is at home: 8 Glue's, 4 Fog's, 16 Electro, and 4 Broadheads

Well, I didn't say it was impossible, nor that I hadn't done something similar in the past. I just said that it was the rarity. All concepts fall very nicely into either "Charges on the Slots" variety or the "Charges on the Reserve" variety. There are some cases (as you post above) where there is a little wiggle room in where the charges are applied but, again, its a rarity.

When I was writing my post, I thought of exactly the situation you offer...the archer can only fit 32 arrows so predetermines how many of each type he is bringing with him. Although I'd probably ask the character to take another -1/4 (maybe even a -0) must determine MP charges before play.

Actually an additional -1/4 would be a good idea. After all, it does remove some flexibility and usefullness of the MP. Neato.

Rapier · November 2, 2004

Re: Charges on a Multipower's Reserve

Well yes' date=' this is The Hero System, so things do tend to come down to issues of cost and whether cost properly represents relative value.[/quote']
Yeah. I was kind of frustrated. Arguing in the MA is Overpriced thread and someone keeps trying to prove that Bricks are better/more powerful/better constructs than MAs because bricks get extra PD, Leaping etc for their STR. But thats another thread....

Anyway: I agree that powers and equipment should be built in a manner so as to best represent the special effects. What I hope you might have inferred from my first message in this thread is that I think the costs which the official rules apply to Charges on a Multipower Reserve and/or Charges on Multipower Slots don't properly represent the relative value of the things which, in game terms, they emulate.

Here are two simple builds for an Archer's bow and arrows:

Example A

30 60-point Multipower Reserve, OIF Bow (-1/2), 12 Charges (-1/4), Must allocate the 12 Charges among the available arrow types and can only change that allocation "at base" (-1/4)

3 u4d6 RKA, OAF Arrow (-1)

3 u2 1/2d6 RKA, AP (+1/2), OAF Arrow (-1)

3 u12d6 EB, OAF Arrow (-1)

3 u6d6 Entangle, OAF Arrow (-1)

Example B

30 60-point Multipower Reserve, OIF Bow (-1/2), Some other Limitation - it doesn't matter exactly what it is as long as the value is (-1/2)

3 u4d6 RKA, OAF Arrow (-1), 16 Charges (-0)

3 u2 1/2d6 RKA, AP (+1/2), OAF Arrow (-1), 16 Charges (-0)

3 u12d6 EB, OAF Arrow (-1), 16 Charges (-0)

3 u6d6 Entangle, OAF Arrow (-1), 16 Charges (-0)

These are both reasonable ways of building a super-archer's bow and arrows but Example B is far better with more shots per slot than Example A has for the entire Multipower. Yet the cost is the same for both.

I agree with the constructs completely. Both are totally valid and acceptable. However, the -1/2 mystery limitation on Example B is also the extra point I'm trying to make. That mystery limitation makes any comparison between A and B pointless. They are not the same constructs. If you remove the mystery limitation, the costs are not the same.

I don't have HD on this computer and not up to the math right now (darned allergies). If you remove the -1/4 from A and the -1/2 from B then you can compare the relative values of the constructs.

In the case of Example A (as above), I would disallow it without the extra -1/4. IMO the actual charges belong on the slots. Trying to purchase charges on the slots (without limiting it to a pre-selected number of charges) seems to be a cheese-around for evenly splitting the charges between the slots.

Yes, there is still going to be a price-differential. However, since the examples provide different effects/results that is all hunkey dorey.

There are also campaign considerations. We ran into this in my old skool DnD days. 1 guy running around with 4 spears, 3 swords, a mace, 5 daggers, a 10' long blowgun, a lance and 3 handaxes. What, is he draggin a wagon behind him? Some archer comes into my game with 128 arrows on his person, he is REALLY gonna have to dance quick to rationalise it.

If you just don't allow Charges (neither as a Limitation nor as an Advantage) on Multipower Reserves, how will you represent, say, a ray gun with 32 shots but with 6 different settings? Without Charges on the Reserve, you can get a certain number of shots per setting, but not a total number of shots without regard to the setting used for each shot.

I have no problem whatsoever with charges on an MP. The RayGun example is the proto-typical charges on the MP power. Its even juicier if you use some of the extra Charge attributes that is in on of the DH articles. There is one in there that lists costs for Slot Uses 2 Charges.

I completely understand you pointing out that there is a cost advantage on Charging MP and Charging Slots. However, I believe that concept will trump any such comparison (as per the 128 arrows above).

CrosshairCollie · November 2, 2004

Re: Charges on a Multipower's Reserve

In most cases, If I'm going to a 'group power source' for a multi-setting weapon (like, say, a Phaser), I'm probably just going to give it an END Reserve.

Rapier · November 2, 2004

Re: Charges on a Multipower's Reserve

In most cases' date=' If I'm going to a 'group power source' for a multi-setting weapon (like, say, a Phaser), I'm probably just going to give it an END Reserve.[/quote']
That's what I usually do too. Lately I've swung over to that construct than using charges. It seems to work a little more concept smoothly in my mind...and there have been occassions when on an extended adventure someone wants to recharge their Laser. I can pop a limitation on the END Reserve Recovery (requires external power source). It makes it much easier for the player to determine (and me) how long it takes to charge the thing.

Pegasus · November 2, 2004

Re: Charges on a Multipower's Reserve

I just happened to be reworking my archer type character, and I wanted to try the charges on the multipower route as it works well with his sfx. Problem I ran into is that some of the slots are supposed to be continuing charges (darkness, acid, etc.)...ideas?

Hugh Neilson · November 2, 2004

Re: Charges on a Multipower's Reserve

Whoops! You're right! Ignore my last post.

Let me try again:

60 30-point Multipower Reserve, Unlimited Charges (example 9 - revised)

3 u30-point power, 16 Charges

2 u30-point power, 8 Charges

1 u30-point power, 1 Charge

2 u30-point power, Costs END

The first slot can be used 16 times; the second one, eight times; the third, once. After you've used these 25 shots, you can use the fourth slot as many times as you want. (For an extra point, the fourth slot can be 0 END.)

Compare this to:

45 45 point MP reserve

4 u30-point power, 0 END

This costs 61 points, 8 points (20%) less than your construct (assuming 0 END on the last power added to yours), and each power has unlimited uses. I can make the last power a 45 point power if I'm willing to spend END.

Is it reasonable that the character with no restriction on number of uses of each slots gets the equivalent of a limitation (even one less than -1/4) on the power as a whole?

Or if you prefer, you can reduce the Advantage on the Reserve to the maximum you feel you'll need in a day, and add the same advantage to the fourth slot, thusly:
45 30-point Multipower Reserve, 64 Charges (example 10)

3 u30-point power, 16 Charges

2 u30-point power, 8 Charges

1 u30-point power, 1 Charge

3 u30-point power, 64 Charges, Costs END

That's at least a bit cheaper than my alternative above - by 7 points (although I could shave 4 points if I put 0 END on the reserve and don't pay the extra point per slot, but I wouldn't allow that).

In fairness, the discrepancy arises from charges, not from your construct. I'd be inclined to allow +1/2 as the maximum advantage for "unlimited charges" provided none of the individual powers are autofire. 250 charges should not be more expensive than 0 END with unlimited usages.

I'm inclined to read the rules as written and allow the slots to be limited without limiting the reserve (or with the reserve getting the least of all limitations for charges). Let's look at the alternatives:

(a) 4 30 point powers, each with 12 charges, will cost 24 x 4 = 96

( 4 30 point powers with unlimited uses will cost 30 x 4 = 120

With taht in mind, what's wrong with having

(d) the same 4 powers, each with 12 charges, for 34 points (OK, 32 points, but that's a rounding problem) [rather than for 53 points applying a +1/2 advantage to the pool]?

Sure, using all 12 shots of all 4 slots is unlikely, but they are presumably different powers, and there will be times when using up one slot will hurt, even with the other three fully available.

PhilFleischmann · November 4, 2004

Re: Charges on a Multipower's Reserve

I'd be inclined to allow +1/2 as the maximum advantage for "unlimited charges" provided none of the individual powers are autofire. 250 charges should not be more expensive than 0 END with unlimited usages.

I agree. That's really the problem. I'd probably do the same thing as a house rule, but I wanted to keep my examples more-or-less "book legal."

Other related problems that could be solved with house rules:

The granularity of limitations and advantages. I have advocated before allowing other values of modifiers besides "quarters" -1/4, +3/4, etc. I suggested allowing "nickels" -0.1, +0.15, -0.5, +0.2, etc. This would allow modifiers such as Charges to be fine tuned. (Although it was almost universally rejected the last time I brought this up.)

Avoid the rounding problem by rounding to smaller fractions, especially for the slots of MPs, you could round them to the nearest half-point, instead of the nearest whole point. Or even to a smaller fraction, say, the nearest 0.1. If you end up with a half point left over, enjoy it! Be the only kid on your block to have a odd COM score!

Charges on a Multipower's Reserve

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