The Science of Magic and the Evolution of Gods

[Curufea]

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[AlHazred]

Re: The Science of Magic and the Evolution of Gods

 

Just so's I'm clear, Dynamic Ley Lines pulse at a completely random rate and intensity, whereas Variable Ley Lines pulse at a predictable rate and intensity. Did I get that right?

[Curufea]

Re: The Science of Magic and the Evolution of Gods

 

Kinda.

 

More like Dynamic lines have high and low points at the same time. Variable lines are either all high, or all low along its entire length. I also envision lines more like a web, than a single line around the circumference of the world.

 

Location  A                B
           _   _   _   _
Dynamic = _/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/

Variable= ------------------
or (at a different time)
Variable= __________________

Static is like Variable, but doesn't change over time

[tkdguy]

Re: The Science of Magic and the Evolution of Gods

 

Interesting. I need to to take a closer look at this.

[Curufea]

Re: The Science of Magic and the Evolution of Gods

 

I haven't written the rules up yet, but basically to tap a ley line there are various considerations-

 

Clerics only tap lines of their god, but are better at it (it's a specialisation)

Mages can do any.

Elves are better than mages (in my campaign).

 

Distance to the line, and how close it is to the spell you want to cast. I envision an End Reserve and an Aid for some types of spells..

 

Dynamic I wouldn't keep track of in a campaign, just roll randomly if tapped to find out what level it's at.

Variable would depend on the religions - so I'd keep a calendar (ie there are more fireballs thrown around on the High Holy Day of the God of Fire for example).

Static are the easiest to book keep - they remain the same. And generally are used to power petty magics.

[Curufea]

Re: The Science of Magic and the Evolution of Gods

 

More on tapping magic-

 

There can be a branch of learning (possibly restricted to Elves only) called metamagic, which deals with how magic functions.

It would have spells specifically geared to manipulating how ley lines are tapped - and stopping others from tapping them.

 

It would lead to interesting tactical magic combats, as various "supply lines" were cut off from the use of enemy magicians and they are forced to fall back on secondary lines, that are less appropriate or further away.

 

Possibly this could be seen as an ECM/ECCM combat (TCM- Tapping Counter Measures?)

 

Which also leads to the number of supportable users of a ley line. For each additional user of a particular line, its overall strength should diminish.

[Curufea]

Re: The Science of Magic and the Evolution of Gods

 

Currently I'm thinking of a table with different strengths of ley lines. You go up or down on the table according to season/festival, what type of ley line it is, and what type of user you are (religious, irreligious, Elven).

 

The general high level ley line will probably be-

END Reserve (100) 10pt, Recovery (10) 10pt, Ranged, Usuable simultaneously, x64 targets (Active cost 70), Slow Recovery 1/minute (-1 on recovery cost only), independent, reduced by range, IIF immobile, requires skill roll, no active point penalty & subject to skill vs skill (Real cost of 13)

+

2D6 Aid 20pts, Variable effect (relevent faith/area) (Active cost 60), Linked, independent, reduced by range, IIF immobile, requires skill roll, no active point penalty & subject to skill vs skill (Real cost of 11)

 

(possibly a usable by others as well for the Aid, but not sure about that)

 

There is a caveat that all magic must use ambient energy if it wishes to be persistent (or any other constant), and to use your own character's endurance should be extra tiring (increased endurance)

[sbarron]

Re: The Science of Magic and the Evolution of Gods

 

This is an interesting system. Within the past 2 weeks I started working on a magic system with similar ideas (specifically Ley lines and nexus points). I was even considering creating charts and such. Ultimatley, I settled on very different approach. I'm interested to see how this all works out. Great job, Curufea.

[Curufea]

Re: The Science of Magic and the Evolution of Gods

 

I like the idea of magic being integral to life, but separate. This system also makes astral perception useful - and magically aware characters never have problems with navigation. Unless you introduce Mana Storms

 

Although If you do, I'd be inclined to make the mana weather system non-random, otherwise PC mages would regard magic as fickle. Things like God's intervening, or massive ritual magic, or the use of very powerful artifacts may cause tides or ripples. Possibly even temporary dead zones.

 

The opening of the Demon Rift caused the largest chaotic storm, with the massive extradimensional invasion. Lies were warped, broken, or moved. Effectively over-written, or 'invaded' by otherworldly magic, creating chaos at the edges (and, incidentally, wiping out any advantages the Elven empire had). Mind you, I kinda rewrote the Western Shores history - there was an alternate timeline where the PCs were Elven princes/heirs in a magic Elven golden age - their first mission they are tricked into doing by an evil grand-vizier-type was the retrieval of a magic item necessary for a ritual magic spell that effectively causes their ancestors to have never been born. They themselves wear devices that protect them from the item so they can retrieve it - which also incidentally protects them from the paradox of existing. So you have PCs of a different history, wandering around in the book's normal example history (1st ed Fantasy Hero that is) wearing devices that if removed, cause them to cease existing There were a number of ways to get around the devices eventually, but we didn't get that far. I'm not really sure why I went that route ten years ago - normally I find time trave quite abhorrent. Oh well...

 

The magic system is a little bit of "The Force" in Starwars, meets Animism, meets "Gaia" in Final Fantasy

 

Although one of the campaigns was heavily influenced by Kabbalism as well (too much Evangelian watching I guess)

[Curufea]

Re: The Science of Magic and the Evolution of Gods

Endurance Reserve							Aid			Total
End	Rec	Class	Type	Event	Active	Real	Aid	Active	Real	Active	Real
200	5D6	Major	Dynamic	Artifact Destruction, Mass slaughter, Major sacrificial festivals, Natural disasters	131.25	25	5D6	150	29	281	54
150	5D6			Holy days	113.75	22	5D6	150	29	264	51
100	5D6			Normal	96.25	18	5D6	150	29	246	47
100	4D6	Minor	Dynamic	Artifact Destruction, Mass slaughter, Major sacrificial festivals, Natural disasters	84	16	4D6	120	23	204	39
50	4D6			Holy days	66.5	12	4D6	120	23	187	35
40	4D6			Normal	63	11	4D6	120	23	183	34
120	100	Major	Variable	Major Holy days and rituals, Manifestations	392	70	3D6	90	17	482	87
100	20			Holy days	105	20	3D6	90	17	195	37
80	10			Normal	63	12	3D6	90	17	153	29
60	50	Minor	Variable	Major Holy days and rituals, Manifestations	196	35	2D6	60	11	256	46
50	10			Holy days	52.5	10	2D6	60	11	113	21
40	5			Normal	31.5	6	2D6	60	11	92	17
40	40	Major	Static	Normal	154	27	1D6	30	6	184	33
20	20	Minor	Static	Normal	77	14	1D6	30	6	107	20

Major lines are between major temples, shrines or artifacts and usually represent the dominant religions and beliefs.

The variable recovery for Dynamic lines costs are based on average roll of a D6 (3.5)

Other Endurance Reserves
END	Rec	Name
As creature	0	Birth
As creature	0	Death
20	20	Sex
10	10	Worship
As artifact	0	Artifacts

Note - all artifacts should not have recoverable endurance reserves, but some may be able to recharge themselves if in proximity to an appropriate ley line

Normal race PCs should not have reserves either, unless they are magical beings of some sort. Recovery of the reserve is the same as artifacts.

The END of the "Other Endurance Reserves" can be used to recharge magical beings and artifacts - if it is appropriate (ie a vampire cannot recharge from births, an angel of the god of healing cannot recharge from deaths)

[Curufea]

Re: The Science of Magic and the Evolution of Gods

 

Recommended for ley-line using packages-

 

Clerics:

Psych lim - can only use ley lines of their deity for magic.

Psych lim - Belief/faith/code of conduct/honour

Skills - Theology: equivalent to a magic skill roll for casting spells of their faith AND a tapping skill roll for accessing their deity's ley lines.

 

 

Mages:

Psych lim - cannot recharge END reserves with worship (all Mages are athiests)

Skills - College/School: magic skill rolls for casting particular classes of spells

- Tap College/school:: tapping skill roll for using a type of ley line

 

Elves:

Skills - Racial Magic: magic skill roll for a particular category of spells

- Tap Racial Magic: tapping skill roll for using a category of ley lines

e.g. Dark Elves - Evil, Sea Elves - Chaos, Wood Elves - Good, Elven Council - Order, High Elves - Entropy

 

The setting is pantheistic/pantheurgic for all the users of magic. So each of the three types listed above should have a main type of magic bought at 3/2 and if they want more it costs a larger amount for the secondary beliefs/colleges/racial magics.

Note - High Elven Entropy covers all forms of magic.

 

This ties in to the pyramid structure of the Elven religion.

 

Next, I'll probably do a list of the tier structure of magic, and suggestions of which colleges/spells/gods belong to which branch of the Elven religion. This is my version of Western Shores though - so you would need your own for whatever campaign setting you are using.

 

If you make gods the source of power, rather than a manifestation of it, as it is in my world - you should rewrite clerics and make them more powerful than other type of magic user.

[tkdguy]

Re: The Science of Magic and the Evolution of Gods

 

Another idea you can do is have just one source of magic. It's just that the clerics believe it comes from the gods. If they have a lot of political power, they can make life hard on the mages for "stealing the gods' magic."

[Curufea]

Re: The Science of Magic and the Evolution of Gods

 

That is the general idea. The church is powerful - afterall, the gods occasionally walk the earth, miracles happen, and prayer really does make a difference.

And both Mages and Elves are classed as 'soulless'

So they should also have social limitations of being vilified.

 

However, the church is only powerful in the current age - the altered timeline with the previous "golden age of elves" had the Elven empire dominant, and while the church still hated them, they only whispered behind their backs

[tkdguy]

Re: The Science of Magic and the Evolution of Gods

 

If the elves still have their own kingdoms, they'd be in a good position to fight back. Even if they don't, they can still have a resistance movement of sorts. Mages, being lumped in with the elves, would most likely be their allies. They would be a force to be reckoned with, despite the power of the church.

[Curufea]

Re: The Science of Magic and the Evolution of Gods

 

Kinda possible if it was a different history. Post time-paradox, the elves are reduced a single city in the forest (Moondeep) and humanity has taken over. While powerful magic is one thing - a high birthrate and a willingness to explore at the hazard of dieing makes up for a lot...

 

Mages aren't organised into guilds in my world. And while I refer to colleges and schools of spells - that's only because that's the way it is organised in 1st ed Fantasy Hero and the Companion books. While magic is fairly common - it is very low powered (at least now it is - the Demon Cleft reduced the overall magic level).

[Adam Kadmon]

Re: The Science of Magic and the Evolution of Gods

 

Recommended for ley-line using packages-

 

Clerics: Psych lim - can only use ley lines of their deity for magic.

 

Mages: Psych lim - cannot recharge END reserves with worship (all Mages are athiests).

 

Is this meant to be a psych lim? Shouldn't it be a physical limit?

At the moment mages and clerics only believe that they cant use other lay lines.

Having it as a physical limit means they cant use the lay lines.

[Curufea]

Re: The Science of Magic and the Evolution of Gods

 

No, I'm in favour of psych lim :-

 

If a Mage finds faith, they become a cleric.

If a Cleric loses faith, they become a mage.

 

The magic is still there, but the method of obtaining changes. It allows for more character development, and epiphanies.

 

You can't actual "buy off" the psych lim disad, you can only change it from one to the other. As it's a point of world view that changes.

 

I toss the terms "mage" and "cleric" about a lot, but that's because everyone is familiar with the class structure of D&D. Personally, I much prefer skill based systems without defined classes. In this case it's "world view".

 

Possibly there could be a transition period of self-doubt where they have difficulty getting in touch with magic at all.

[Markdoc]

Re: The Science of Magic and the Evolution of Gods

 

Actually I'd agree with Adam - a Phys. Lim is most appropriate. Don't get hung up special effects - a Phys. Lim. can be mental or mystic in origin.

 

The reason for this is that a Psych. Lim can be overcome with an Ego roll - so if you choose a Psych Lim., then a mage who made an Ego roll could recharge from worshipping and a Cleric could tap ley lines.

 

If that's what you want: that the two styles of magic can recharge at each other's sources with an effort of will, then go with a Psych. Lim. If not, go with a Phys Lim.

 

cheers, Mark

[Curufea]

Re: The Science of Magic and the Evolution of Gods

 

True.

 

I was kinda thinking "alignment shifts" from D&D for acting out of character on this..

 

Change in faith is possible- either there could be a house rule that attempting an EGO roll means the character is "wavering on the edge" - which will be a GM warning. If they make more than a certain number of rolls, they have a "crisis of faith" and all magical powers acquire an activation roll (or possible fail entirely, and then over time, perhaps get an activation roll), before they get a skill roll, until the character completes a spiritual quest of some sort.

 

If it's a phys lim - then it can be worked out with the GM if they want to develop their character along alternate line

[Curufea]

Re: The Science of Magic and the Evolution of Gods

 

I'll just clarify the bit about organised magic - Each kingdom has different forms of magic use-

The human kingdoms vary between Church dominated, and tharl/shaman for the Noric-types.

The feline empire (Kartar) has mainly combat-oriented mage schools and a structured system.

The lizardman empire (Zylastra) has mainly Church dominated. But their church is quite different from the human's. On a subspecies note - the warmblooded lizards are more intelligent,and rule. The coldblooded are slaves (who, incidentally would grow up to be dragons if left in peace)..

 

Anyhow, back OT-

 

Mages SHOULD have some form of special sense to see magic. For Elves, it's a requirement. But for mages, and clerics it depends on how you access magic. Wild mages and the average cleric will just know that some places and times are better than others for magic/miracles. Those that can sense 'astral space' (still thinking of a better name), will know why, and can chart/navigate and map ley lines. Possibly also detect magical beings.

 

I could well imagine some of the more fundamentalist sub-religions using mana-sight to track down mages and their use of magic, as a form of witch-hunting.

 

Another note on range for ley lines - I've listed it as a power of the line itself, which doesn't account for the highly skilled mages being able to tap into lines at a greater distance.

This could be represented as a kind of clairsentience/telepresence. But I haven't worked out how, yet....

 

There is an alternative to mapping ley lines for campaigns as well - just use statistics.

Most vilages will have a shrine of some sort depending on how devout they are. Most will have a graveyard, animals and people are born and die all the time. This should set an ambient mana level that will be good enough to power all persistent spells/miracles/magical traits.

There are magic-null areas where this is not the case. These are areas hiding great artifacts or magical beings that consume the ambient mana - or areas that have been invaded by non-terrestrial mana (such as the area around the Daemon Cleft in WS).

Some form of table should be designed for your campaign setting based on the following factors-

Nearness to a settlement

Size of the settlement

Types of gods worshipped there (or other beliefs) - which flavour the Ley Lines and change what powers they aid

Time of year (affects how powerful the domain of a god is for the Line)

Local weirdness (are there artifacts, dungeons, battles or cults nearby)