Fastballl special with shrinking.

[incrdbil]

Ok--situation--60 Str Brick, tossing someone with 5 levels of shrinking, 30" of flight, and a 15 STR. The tossee starts shrunk, the tosser has a running throw

 

a casual estimation has the brick using an effective 105 Strength for distance he can throw him. I'm without book right now, but the velocity is in the 80" to 100" range, IIRC. the fastbal special hits, and just at the moment of impact, the shrinking character turns off shrinking.

 

According the the rules on fastball, he's supposed to drop the the ground right there--but its the moment of impact.

 

Using the low niumber, 80, the shrinkers strength, and growth damage, this would be a 27.5d6 move by,( only 17.5 d6 if you dissallow the growth modifer, or 22.5d6 if you half it; for a move by I wouldn't allow it) or a ...40d6 move through. Yes, the velocity modifier would be a pain. Using the flight to make turns, this could be a nasty multiple move by. Preferable to the move through, since the shrinker would be wacked silly from the damage.

 

 

A common rule we used to use was that if the subject was caught by suprise or blinded and was unaware of the fastball special coming at them, the velocity penalty to OCV didnt apply. Anyone use anything like that now as a house rule? It may have been in an older edition, but I think it was just house rule.

 

Am I way off base with this? Part of me, for balances sake, says only use the extra strength the brick gets for tossing the lite weight shrinker for distance, but only allow the damage to be based off the velocity for a normal body mass subject.

 

I won't even mention the optional rule of allowing the shrinkers flight to add to the throwing velocity. Or wha could hapen if the Shrinker has a damage shield or some other hth attack used as a multiple power attack.

[Steve Long]

Re: Fastballl special with shrinking.

 

This doesn't seem to be a rules question, but more an invitation to a discussion, so I've moved it. If you have a specific rules question that I've overlooked, please post a follow-up.

[incrdbil]

Re: Fastballl special with shrinking.

 

This doesn't seem to be a rules question' date=' but more an invitation to a discussion, so I've moved it. If you have a specific rules question that I've overlooked, please post a follow-up.[/quote']

 

 

 

The only possible rules question might pertain to the extra effective strength and resulting higher velocity the thrower gains by tossing a charracter with such reduced mass and if it should apply to the damage generated by a move by or move through. The only reason I note this as possible is due to the difference in knockback distance and actual knockback damage for shrinking. Probably more of a balance issue than a rules question.

Sorry for the initial poor forum selection.

[Kristopher]

Re: Fastballl special with shrinking.

 

By increasing his mass, the thrown character actually gains nothing. Kinetic energy won't increase.

 

 

KE=.5m*v^2

 

Increased mass = decreased velocity.

[Rapier]

Re: Fastballl special with shrinking.

 

By increasing his mass' date=' the thrown character actually gains [i']nothing[/i]. Kinetic energy won't increase.

 

 

KE=.5m*v^2

 

Increased mass = decreased velocity.

Ug. Then you get into some funky ponderables though. It's theoretically impossible to shed mass. Which means his mass wouldn't change, just his weight (ponder that one for a little bit).

 

You would also have to consider that the "increased mass" would already be moving at the same relative velocity as the "non-increased mass." If it was not that character would take move through damage based on the mass increase.

 

While I understand you thought, using standard physics equations as a definitive reasoning behind a rules adjudication is problematic, at best. It is theoretically impossible for Shrinking to work at all (since the weight is halved for each level, and you would almost certainly have to rule that the only way the weight could be halved is if the mass also decreased -- barring some particular SFX, that is).

 

In this case, we have to take the system in its assumptions: When you increase your size you pick up energy (converting from potential to kinetic). This is a standard Hero system ruling from way back and is very genre.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fastballl special with shrinking.

 

erm, probably missing something but...

 

Move through/moveby doesn't use mass to determine damage, just strength and velocity, I'm not sure changing mass would make that much difference

 

Can you use the increased damage obtained by flinging a small object AND the growth damage? Well, you could rule that the increased flinging distance works like increased KB for shrunk characters: you can get them further but it has no effect on the damage, you calculate the distance based on shrink mass but velocity based on normal mass, that means there's no real difference, damage-wise, whether you are big or little, assuming your STR stays the same.

 

As for combining growth velocity damage with a fastball special, fine, but I'd want a DEX roll, penalties for velocity, to get the timing right.

 

It does lead to the interesting question about change of mass and velocity though I can't see it coming up much. If you preserve momentum despite variations in mass, changing shape would make a big difference to velocity, but that is complicated and as Rapier points out applying physics to game menchanics doesn't always help. I'd be inclined to base velocity on the mass you were at when flung, and if you change mass during flight it increases or decreases the distance you travel, and not worry too much about changing at the moment of impact.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fastballl special with shrinking.

 

A common rule we used to use was that if the subject was caught by suprise or blinded and was unaware of the fastball special coming at them, the velocity penalty to OCV didnt apply. Anyone use anything like that now as a house rule? It may have been in an older edition, but I think it was just house rule.

 

I wouldn't let this one by: someone who is unaware or blinded is already running at penalties to DCV. The OCV penalty reflects, to my mind, the difficulty of lining yourself up to hit, preventing tumble, that sort of thing, and it would be as difficult to do if you were hurled at a dodging target or the side of a barn.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fastballl special with shrinking.

 

If you are doing fastball specials you should apply both the move through/by OCV penalty and a range penalty as being flung is not controlled movement. I'd also be inclined to use the lower OCV of flinger and flingee, because that is going to be the determining factor: it doesn't matter how dextrous the flingee is if the flinger isn't on target.

 

Some people make the flinger hit the right hex with a roll and then allow the flingee to make a movethrough/by if they hit it. I find this generous in the extreme, and strongly favour the 'combined penalties' approach above.

 

Is this covered in Ultimate Brick or elsewhere?

[CDad]

Re: Fastballl special with shrinking.

 

UB has a couple of good points about Fastball Specials. Here's a summary:

• Thrower makes the attack roll to get "missile" in position
  
• Thrower has a -OCV for throwing an unbalanced, non-aerodynamic "missile"
  
• Next, "Missile" makes his own attack roll
  
• Any power activation occurs 1/2 way to the target, not at the "moment of impact" (this counts if the target is 5" or 50" away).
  
• GM's option to let "missile" use a Combat Maneuver (still get Velocity Damage)
  
• One GM option allows flight Velocity can be added if it exceeds the throwing Velocity
  
• Another GM option to add flight Velocity to Fastball Velocity
  
• Growth Momentum may require a Power Skill roll
  
• Turning off Shrinking reduces maximum distance thrown from 80" to 40" and Velocity from 80 to 40
  
• Activating Shrinking in mid-throw adds 1/2 the distance the "missile" traveled in inches and Velocity
  

If you travel less than 40", turning off the shrinking is no problem - having the thrower HIT the target is a problem (that's a -12 OCV at 32"!).

[Rapier]

Re: Fastballl special with shrinking.

 

UB has a couple of good points about Fastball Specials. Here's a summary:

• Thrower makes the attack roll to get "missile" in position
  
• Thrower has a -OCV for throwing an unbalanced, non-aerodynamic "missile"
  
• Next, "Missile" makes his own attack roll
  
• Any power activation occurs 1/2 way to the target, not at the "moment of impact" (this counts if the target is 5" or 50" away).
  
• GM's option to let "missile" use a Combat Maneuver (still get Velocity Damage)
  
• One GM option allows flight Velocity can be added if it exceeds the throwing Velocity
  
• Another GM option to add flight Velocity to Fastball Velocity
  
• Growth Momentum may require a Power Skill roll
  
• Turning off Shrinking reduces maximum distance thrown from 80" to 40" and Velocity from 80 to 40
  
• Activating Shrinking in mid-throw adds 1/2 the distance the "missile" traveled in inches and Velocity
  

If you travel less than 40", turning off the shrinking is no problem - having the thrower HIT the target is a problem (that's a -12 OCV at 32"!).

I'm running late and should have been in the shower like 20 minutes ago. However, I think thats a fairly good rule path. I would do things a little differently, oh hell (i'll use Colossus and Wolvy instead of Flinger and -ee):

 

1) Colossus picks up Wolvy (exterts STR) and throws him. Colossus is targeting hex (DCV 3) and Wolvy is helping by being as aerodynamic as possible (split the difference and call it -2 OCV)

 

2) If Jean Grey wants to boost Wolvy (with TK Flight UBO) she can add velocity at 5" / DC like normal. This is going to require a TeamWork roll to time things will Colossus and a PowerSkill roll for the effect.

 

3) If GrowMan (couldn't think of a RL hero with this power) decides to grow Wolvy at/around impact to use the Growth velocity, he requires a TeamWork and PowerSkill roll (just like Jean). Growth velocity is added like normal.

 

4) Wolvy rolls his To Hit with all the normal penalties (movethrough/by, uncontrolled movement, velocity) with an additional -2 for the difficulty.

 

5) Apply damage.

 

Now, if the Wolvy character had Flight and Growth (or Shrinking) if simplifies things because he wouldn't need a TeamWork or Power Skill roll (well, maybe a PowerSkill for the added Flight).

 

Like I said, pretty much the same thing, just a little different take. Off to shower!!

[incrdbil]

Re: Fastballl special with shrinking.

 

Interesting responses. So far I'm thinking of the following

 

Growth momentum ok for move throughs, not move bys.

 

Flight only adds velocity/distance if it exceeds velocity gained from thrower.

 

I'll let power activation occur at impact (the halfway restriction doesn't make sense and goes against the norm for power activations--when the character chooses)

 

No more house rule about move-through mods. Always a penalty, hope the target is flashed, stunned, or entangles.

 

For the move through, if the shrinker isn't turning off his shrinking till the moment of impact, the thrower wont just have to hit the hex, he'd have to hit the target...then the shrinker has to make his roll as well. If the shrinker stays shrunk for the move by, same thing. I think that balances it out.