Ballistics & Guns & such

[Vengeance]

Not to add more die rolls, but...

 

Neil,

 

As you know, I like simple rules and don't want additional complications, but an issue (albeit a small one) I've had with Hero Games firearms is that it does not take differences in bullets into consideration. All 9mm (for example) bullets are not created equal. Yes, there is the standard full metal jacket 9mm round, but then you have the variations in velocity (+p and +p+) and then with the bullet type (jacketed hollow point, jacketed soft point, Hydra-Shok ) and they will all (in reality) do different amounts of damage. I know you can replicate this in the Hero Games system by doing power limitations (reduced penetration, damage classes, etc...), but thats a bit more work than I like to do. Anyway, just a minor gripe.

 

On a side note, I found this website which discusses the test the FBI use when performing ballistic tests. It's kind of interesting (and it's brief): http://greent.com/40Page/general/fbitest.htm

 

That's it. I'll talk to you later.

[Markdoc]

Well, I can't break it down by calibre/slug type, but in large hospitals which see a lot of trauma cases, firearms wounds run about 16% fatality (or roughly a 1 in 6 chance). The vast majority of these are from handguns (at least in the Chicago area (I assume the same would be true in other major metropolitan areas, but it might not be in MiddleofNowhere, Montana). Since many of these are multiple firearms wounds and in most cases, the victim has had to wait more than a few minutes for help, we could assume that this means taking someone into negative BOD.

 

It's a reall ballpark figure, but if you assume a 1 in 12 chance of a single shot causing a fatality, then the current weighting for middle of the road handguns (.32, 9mm) seems about right.

 

US military fatalities from firearm wounds are far lower than this number - even before the wide adoption of effective body armour - but that's because they usually have trained medics within screaming distance (like most PCs).

 

So, you could well argue that firearm damage is over-rated. I can't see any real reason to up the DC. "Instakills" are actually pretty rare. What Hero (or any other game system for that matter) does not do is simulate bleeding very well - most firearms deaths occur in the 60-120 minutes *after* the injury occurs.

 

And frankly, I am not sure that I need that much realism. I don't want to tell my players "Your character has suffered severe trauma to the pectoralis minor. He has heavy bleeding and an accumulation of fluid in the interstital space"

 

cheers, Mark

[RDU Neil]

Re: Not to add more die rolls, but...

 

Originally posted by Vengeance

Neil,

 

As you know, I like simple rules and don't want additional complications, but an issue (albeit a small one) I've had with Hero Games firearms is that it does not take differences in bullets into consideration. All 9mm (for example) bullets are not created equal. Yes, there is the standard full metal jacket 9mm round, but then you have the variations in velocity (+p and +p+) and then with the bullet type (jacketed hollow point, jacketed soft point, Hydra-Shok ) and they will all (in reality) do different amounts of damage. I know you can replicate this in the Hero Games system by doing power limitations (reduced penetration, damage classes, etc...), but thats a bit more work than I like to do. Anyway, just a minor gripe.

 

On a side note, I found this website which discusses the test the FBI use when performing ballistic tests. It's kind of interesting (and it's brief): http://greent.com/40Page/general/fbitest.htm

 

That's it. I'll talk to you later.

 

Whoa... Paul posting on a gaming board. I think that's a sign of the apocalypse!

 

Hey dude. Good points. Your post reflected a lot of what has been discussed here.

 

First question: "How much detail do you want in a game?"

 

It's a hard question to answer. In a Danger Int. game... I want more detail. I think, in those "realistic" type games, I DO want to say to a player, "Your character has suffered severe trauma to the pectoralis minor. He has heavy bleeding and an accumulation of fluid in the interstital space"

 

That is part of the flavor of the game. For supers... no... it doesn't matter that much. (Small arms are 1.5d6 to 2.5d6, with AP or Inc. Stun or whatever if it makes sense.)

 

As it is... I've always played that Black Talons or Hydroshock just up the DC by 1... as they are designed to mushroom more effectively and deliver their impact more efficiently. What is the intent of +p or +p+ rounds? Penetration? Stopping power?

 

Again, once I understand the "intent" of the ammunition, you can better translate that into game terms.

 

 

As to Storn's point about body armor... and again, I'm talking heroic level... more "realistic" games here... it is just so easy for body armor to be effective in a game (especially Hero System) that it becomes a level of invulnerability. That is simply not true in the real world. Yeah... modern combat helmets can stop 7.62 ball flat. Sometimes, without significant impact transference. You don't see soldiers charging gun emplacements with carefree abandon, though. Body armor doesn't cover every spot. Body armor is heavy, uncomfortable and slows you down, etc. Even if only slightly... it's just that such slight nuances mean a lot in reality, but are impossible to simulate in games without bogging things down completely.

 

So, yes... I agree that guns don't have the lethality level most people assume... but they do incapacitate and threaten serious bodily harm... taking people out of the fight. Stun often recovers so fast, that even if they are taken into negatives, it is only fifteen to twenty seconds and they are back up and moving.

 

So... the question would be... how do I best simulate the PCs left lying on the battle field, incapacitated, bleeding out and screaming for a medic!

[Storn]

Re: Re: Not to add more die rolls, but...

 

Originally posted by RDU Neil

Whoa... Paul posting on a gaming board. I think that's a sign of the apocalypse!

 

Stun often recovers so fast, that even if they are taken into negatives, it is only fifteen to twenty seconds and they are back up and moving.

 

So... the question would be... how do I best simulate the PCs left lying on the battle field, incapacitated, bleeding out and screaming for a medic!

 

Here is my fix. Add +1 Stun multiplier across the board. For every 20 stun that gets past defenses, take 1 extra Body.

 

If you go, below -1 to -10 Stun, you are incapacitated, bleeding and screaming... you aren't unconcious. Even if you didn't take any Body, your "body" is in such pain that action isn't all that possible besides yelling, groaning and screaming.

 

If you recover out of that -1 to -10 thru Recoveries, then you are walking wounded for this fight at least. A -2 to OCV/DCV/Skill rolls. Can make it a -4 if you want to. Whatever, things in your body are broken.

 

If you go -11 plus; you are knocked unconcious or pass out from pain. That -11 to -20 range, you might recover from in a combat but the above applies. Anything more than -20 generally doesn't get up in this fight.

 

Bleeding: I would make it simpler than Hero does. At -1 Body, you are bleeding. If you still have Stun, unlikely, but can happen, you are still on your feet. But again, -2 to OCV/DCV/Skill rolls is in effect (or -4 if you think that is too weak of a hinderance).

 

Bleeding can stop on its own or be insignificant enough. To reflect that, Make a Con roll at -1/per negative pt of Body. If the roll is made, the Bleeding stops. Only one roll is made. Bleeding can be stopped by someone with a Paramedic roll. Every phase/action the Bleeding character takes, an add'l 1d6 Stun is applied. This is cumalitive, so when it reaches 20 Stun, that is when an extra Body is applied. If the bleeding character does not move or take action, no 1d6 is applied. This will give incentive to PCs to sit behind a wall and yell "medic!"

 

Time of Bleeding: Bleeding out in Hero is WAY too fast, unless an arterial hit is made...but I think that is just "more damage" on the roll. So my feeling is that w/o medical care, someone on the battlefied is going to Bleed out sometime 60 to 120 mins (like the previous poster mentioned) and die. Most rpg combats don't happen in some remote, mud filled field where no medical care is going to get to. So no rolls, no hard and fast rule, just 60 min to 120 mins bleed out. The body coagulating and stop bleeding has already been taken care of by the Con roll.

 

If it is a race of helicopter against bleeding out situation and ya want the random drama...1d6+6 x 10 minutes.

[Vengeance]

+P Ammunition

 

Neil,

 

+P (and +P+ which is a new one to me, but I saw it on a couple ammnuntion manufacturers websites) are more powerful versions of a standard cartridge. So the bullet has the same footprint (i.e. it's still a 9mm), but there are more gunpowder grains (or faster burning, or tighter compaction -- not really sure how they do it). So the end result is that while a "typical" 9mm cartridge may have a muzzle velocity of 1000 feet per second (fps) a +P may round may be up in the 1290 - 1350 fps range. So, because of the higher velocity, in theory it will do more damage.

 

Should have explained that better in my original post. Sorry about that, but I'm not used to gaming bulletin boards, just computer programming ones .

[RDU Neil]

Re: +P Ammunition

 

Originally posted by Vengeance

Neil,

 

+P (and +P+ which is a new one to me, but I saw it on a couple ammnuntion manufacturers websites) are more powerful versions of a standard cartridge. So the bullet has the same footprint (i.e. it's still a 9mm), but there are more gunpowder grains (or faster burning, or tighter compaction -- not really sure how they do it). So the end result is that while a "typical" 9mm cartridge may have a muzzle velocity of 1000 feet per second (fps) a +P may round may be up in the 1290 - 1350 fps range. So, because of the higher velocity, in theory it will do more damage.

 

Should have explained that better in my original post. Sorry about that, but I'm not used to gaming bulletin boards, just computer programming ones .

 

That makes sense. I guess my question is... why have a "standard" cartridge, if +p is so much better and can be fired from a standard 9mm pistol? Cost? Gun wear? Does a standard cartridge have some advantage that +p doesn't? Is +p all a marketing gimmick, and has no consistent benefit?

 

Also... what is the intent of the increased velocity? Does it penetrate or blow through? Does it still transfer that force (MxV) to a higher degree? I know with some rounds, they are so fast, they just have blow through, rather than impact and stopping power.

 

Does a steel cored 7.62 have a significantly different effect on an average adult male, than a non-jacketed 7.62?

 

That kind of detailed look at the "average effect" of different ammunitions would be great. I just wonder if the differences are so minimal that you don't need to really address them in "game terms."

[RDU Neil]

Storn,

What you have suggested is not far off from the Hero rules. I agree that bleading from -1 to -10 (Dead, in my rules, no matter your starting body) is OFTEN too fast... but sometimes, not. Someone can suffocate on their own blood in a couple of minutes, easily. There is shock that can keep you alive, and shock meaning your heart just stops.

 

I've always thought that the best way is to look at...

 

... the amount of body done...

 

... to what PART of the body.

 

Again, we are talking heroic level, hit locations and such, here. I think that 5 body to the gut... even if you are still in the positive body... should be bleeding significantly (most of the time.) Where as 2 body to the arm... even if it puts you at -1 Body... should not really result in heavy bleeding (most of the time.)

 

I think some simple rule like "take half or more of your original body in one shot, after defenses, you have a good chance of bleeding. Less chance if it is a leg or arm shot, more chance for stomach, vitals, chest, head shot.

 

If you move, with a wound like this, you must make an Ego roll with minuses, AND you take a 1d6 stun to represent the pain. This would allow "crawl, scamper run... ow, ow, ow... collapse and gasp for breath"

 

If you take lots of little body shots, you can be hurt, but are likely not to bleed out any time soon, and can move with just an Ego roll with minuses.

 

Simple... except that you have to keep track of each wound, if they are big enough.

 

I'm concerned with upping the Stun multiple, because I think Stun multiples are already too high with a flat 3. In heroic level, with the hit location chart, I think the stun multiples are fine. With a +1 Stun multiple in heroic, you'd see people going unconscious from a hit to the arm way too often. Seven body would equal 21 Stun in one shot (the body is halved, but stun multiple is calculated before that.) That is an average shot from 2d6K. Too high, IMO.

[Vengeance]

Neil,

 

You are correct. The reason for having a standard cartridge and not always use the +p round is both cost and wear and tear on the gun. The round is more expensive (probably 40% premium, maybe more), and the bullet fires with more force and therefore causes more wear and tear on the gun. Additionally, not all firearms are rated for +p ammunition. The majority of the "quality" guns (S&W, HK, SIG, Glock, etc...) can use the +p, but "cheaper" quality guns are not rated for them and should not be used. Hey, maybe that's why that TEC-9 disinitigrated when I fired it.

 

Anwyay, in regards to the intent of the higher velocity, I believe it is more for penetrating power (i.e. police typically use this round with the intent it will get through windshields, etc...), but I can't swear to it.

 

Finally, in regards to "Does a steel cored 7.62 have a significantly different effect on an average adult male, than a non-jacketed 7.62? " I don't know about the effect on an average adult male, but somebody ran on armor piericing test using different versions of 7.62 (gotta love Google and the internet -- all information is out there somewhere). Anyway, here is what this guy wrote up:

 

"I just completed a series of tests to determine the armor piercing qualities of the 7.62x39 cartridge. The targets were mild steel plates 12" x 12" x 1/8", 3/16" and 1/4 ". All firing was done at 25 paces with the target plates held vertical in a wooden stand. Firing was done offhand with a pre-ban AKM type rifle. Cartridges used were Chinese and Bulgarian steel core ball, Chinese lead core ball with steel jacket, Russian hollow point with steel jacket, and Soviet Armor Piercing Incendiary (steel jacket, hardened steel core and White Phosphorus point filler). All cartridge types easily penetrated all individual thickness plates, including the 1/4" thick plate. The plates were then stacked one in front of the other, with the 3/16" plate in front of the 1/4" plate followed by the 1/8" thick plate.

 

There was an approximate 1/8" gap between the plates. This is where things got interesting. All projectiles penetrated the first plate, but the Russian hollow point disintegrated upon contact with the second plate, leaving a moderate dent. The lead core ball projectile left a larger dent in the second plate and "mushroomed" into a near perfect half-sphere shape with the core and jacket typically remaining together. The steel core ball left an even larger dent in the 1/4" second plate, somewhat "mushrooming" with the core and jacket staying together and the steel core swaging itself into the shape of the dent on the plate. About half of the test shots were actually imbedded in the second plate and were difficult to remove. The Soviet API projectile shed it's jacket during penetration of the first plate with a rather large "puff" of white smoke and the pointed, hardened steel core penetrated the second and third plates. The core actually broke in half at the mid-point, with the rear half stuck in the 1/4" plate and the front portion sticking out of the last plate (1/8"). Overall results were disappointing as the steel core ball cartridges showed little increase in penetration over the lead core projectiles and the API projectile proved to be a disappointment in that expected penetration was not achieved. A second round of tests will be conducted using thicker plates, as I believe that the gap between plates spoiled the momentum and ballistic shape of the projectile from plate to plate. The poor performance of the Soviet API could explain why the Soviets did not produce this type after the late 1950's. "

 

Talk to you later.

[Toadmaster]

As far as the +p, +p+ whether or not they should do extra damage varies, in real life or a closely spaced damage RPG sure, in HERO the differance will rarely be enough to justify the extra damage, I've got a listing of 600+ small arms cartridges converted to HERO, I ran the various ballistics to allow those cartiridges with several common loadings to have differant ratings if appropriate, only the very few +P and +P+ cartridges that were very close to the break point justified extra damage. On the other hand many of the magnum pistols "medium" loads were worth dropping a DC, I wound up including these since it adds to the value of revolvers where many of the magnums are preferred for their ability to use low powered to hot loads depending on preferance and intended use.

 

As far as bullet designs many of these are worth a change i damage since this is not really related to overall energy but the energy transfer to the target, hollow points, glasers etc rapidly dump energy be creating more of a surface, this also creates a larger hole which in something living is more of a problem, AP is the reverse, energy is conserved by providing less friction either from less surface area or coating (teflon bullets). The Reduced pen +1DC seems about right for a hollow point to me, but the AP for a bullet is too much, as the example given shows AP bullets in small arms penetrates better but it certainly doesn't double the penetration, this is another area I think using a power like piercing would be handy (that would be extra damage only vs armor for those unfamiliar with piercing). AP is fine for large weapons and HEAT rounds since they are build around it to begin with.

[Toadmaster]

Also on the +P, +P+ this originally was done almost as a new cartridge, they were hotter loadings of the 9mm and .38 Special, they were really to much for older weapons, and some even used heavier brass casings. With modern weapons almost all good quality weapons can use them, it has also become common for hotter loads of a cartridge to use this term but in most cases they are not so much a new cartridge as just a loading closer to the theoretical max for the cartridge. There have also been cartridges designed for specific weapons, you can buy .44 magnum "+P" loads that are strictly for use in rifles, you can shoot them in a .44 magnum pistol but you will damage it, at one time there was a hot 9mm parabellum being sold for use in Submachineguns along the same lines, I think it was even being sold as 9mm UZI, but was really just a 9mm loaded hotter than pistols would tolerate, since most SMG's can withstand higher chamber pressures than pistols.

[gewing]

backwards. the extra damage is only tissue. does not effect armor penetration in any way.

 

1d6 rolls 6, rolls 6 total damage 9

 

Hits unarmored target, does 9

hits 6 def, does 0

 

 

Originally posted by Arthur

Looked OK, until I got to the part about armor. I take you mean "bypasses armor". Not good. That means someone in MI Powered Armor (say, DEF 25, Hardened) can be hurt by a 1d K attack?

 

Now, if you want to introduce a extra damage variable BEFORE defenses, I'd bite. Or put in something about how the extra damage can't be more than the base damage. So if Trooper takes 2 points of BODY and you roll a 6 for that extra half-die, that extra half-die is capped at 2.

[gewing]

I think I read that the "Interceptor" vest cost about $5000

so about the same cost as a .50 BMG rifle. (mid range )

 

Originally posted by Storn

Neil, I believe you upped the damage in Cyber Punk and Dark Champions, not because Hero at it's baseline wasn't doing a good job of giving you the spread of damage options...

 

...but because in both genres... body armor is prolific.

 

And now I hear reports of US army body armor stopping 7.62 rounds!!! Dead center shots, not deflection. Body armor has been getting queitly better on us just in the last 15 years. That is freakin' amazing!

 

Now in a Danger Internat'l campaign, it would probalby be easier to get .50 Cal Barret sniper rifle than it woudl beto get a vest of that quality. But in cyberpunk or Dark Champions... that is dress de riguer. Now weapon of choice against that quality of body armor is going back to the shotgun... you might not even get a scratch in... but the guy is going DOWN with a +1 Stun Multiplier.

 

Actually, with our house rule of 20 Stun gets thru = 1 Body taken, upping all Stun Multipliers across the board *might* do th trick. Certainly that will "simulate" being taken out of a fight, yet not killed. A helmet might stop the bullet, but a whole heck of a lot Stun is going to get thru from even a decent roll.

[RDU Neil]

Found out about these this weekend. Alloy rounds, hollow point, no jacket. Very light weight, 117g vs. standard .45 ACP at 230g. These rounds are supposedly used by police, because they effectively penetrate windshields, but when fired into soft targets, though, they fragment into three pieces, travel 12 inches and stop.

 

When fired, they had a significantly different signature than the ball ammo. The muzzle flash was extensive, but smoke was minimal. The recoil was slightly less. The paper target actually showed a difference. The "IQ" round made a noticably larger hole than the standard round. We wondered if the bullet was actually fragmenting/expanding with just simple paper contact? Anyone have more experience with this round?

 

How would you translate something like this in a game? I'd tend to do something like "limited AP"

 

One... my AP rules are as follows. Subtract amount of body rolled from non-hardened resistant defenses. Example. 6 body rolled, vs. armor of 5... armor is bypassed completely. 6 body rolled vs. armor of 12... bounce. 12-6 = 6... stopping the body.

 

For these new rounds, I'd almost buy it as 1/2 AP. 2d6K, but only ONE of the dice is AP. Roll a 3 and a 4... the 3 being the AP die... and you get 7 body, 3 AP.

 

We use this all the time (I also think this is a great way to simulate 7.62 or other HV rounds that aren't specifically AP in make (no teflon) but can blow through light armor.)

[Storn]

Originally posted by gewing

I think I read that the "Interceptor" vest cost about $5000

so about the same cost as a .50 BMG rifle. (mid range )

 

 

Its not the money. Its the availability. A .50 cal rifle can be bought thru regular channels...ads for it are in any rifle magazine.

 

The vest is military only. The only way you can get it is to be in the military or get it through black market aquisition. At this point in time. There are not civilian vests on the market that can equal what the armed services are wearing.

 

What I'm suggesting for a D.I. like game, a Interceptor vest is a BIG deal, having one. It shouldn't be an easy procurement.

[RDU Neil]

Originally posted by Storn

Its not the money. Its the availability. A .50 cal rifle can be bought thru regular channels...ads for it are in any rifle magazine.

 

The vest is military only. The only way you can get it is to be in the military or get it through black market aquisition. At this point in time. There are not civilian vests on the market that can equal what the armed services are wearing.

 

What I'm suggesting for a D.I. like game, a Interceptor vest is a BIG deal, having one. It shouldn't be an easy procurement.

 

Dunno... seems readily available to me.

 

http://www.pointblankarmor.com/products/interceptor.asp

 

[Toadmaster]

Originally posted by RDU Neil

Found out about these this weekend. Alloy rounds, hollow point, no jacket. Very light weight, 117g vs. standard .45 ACP at 230g. These rounds are supposedly used by police, because they effectively penetrate windshields, but when fired into soft targets, though, they fragment into three pieces, travel 12 inches and stop.

 

When fired, they had a significantly different signature than the ball ammo. The muzzle flash was extensive, but smoke was minimal. The recoil was slightly less. The paper target actually showed a difference. The "IQ" round made a noticably larger hole than the standard round. We wondered if the bullet was actually fragmenting/expanding with just simple paper contact? Anyone have more experience with this round?

 

How would you translate something like this in a game? I'd tend to do something like "limited AP"

 

One... my AP rules are as follows. Subtract amount of body rolled from non-hardened resistant defenses. Example. 6 body rolled, vs. armor of 5... armor is bypassed completely. 6 body rolled vs. armor of 12... bounce. 12-6 = 6... stopping the body.

 

For these new rounds, I'd almost buy it as 1/2 AP. 2d6K, but only ONE of the dice is AP. Roll a 3 and a 4... the 3 being the AP die... and you get 7 body, 3 AP.

 

We use this all the time (I also think this is a great way to simulate 7.62 or other HV rounds that aren't specifically AP in make (no teflon) but can blow through light armor.)

 

Well they are lighter which means they probably have a higher velocity so probably penetrate brittle targets better than the heavy round nose .45, how they "know" to open up against a person but not a vest would be interesting to see how that is explained.

 

One thing I've found with new ammo is it rarely works out as well as it is advertised, when they are first introduced wild claims begin to circulate, a few years later, they are either off the market or they fit in with similar bullets already on the market. I've seen quite a number of bullets offered that are far superior to anything else on the market, now you have a hard time even finding a referance to them.

Several years ago there was a bullet going by the name Arcane, this was a solid bullet with a pointed tip, it was supposed to cut right through armor but act like a hollow point due to its shape causing a "belly flop" effect against the target, years later I read about these and it appears there was nothing particularly stupendous about them except their cost, the came the Glaser safety slug, these were supposed to mystically be able to tell the differance between armor and walls, penetrating armor but not walls, and they were supposed to be like a 12 gauge shotgun against their target. Now from what I've read they are quite effective against unarmored targets but they obliterate on impact with something hard (which they are supposed to do, to prevent overpentration, and where they got their "safety slug" name), I think in this case it was the advertising people that got carried away, since the less fantastic descriptions seem to be pretty close to what it looks like they do. Finally along came the Black Talons, these were supposed to kill you just by looking at them, and even get the doctors if you lived to make it to surgery. The reality is they were just well made hollow points designed to work at pistol velocities (many hollow points don't really expand at the relatively low velocities of pistols) I think the PR killed these off, all kinds of rumors of racial predudice were started about them, laws were being passed and the manufacturer withdrew them until the heat passed, then relabeled them and they are now available under a variety of names, however they are still just hollow points.

 

I guess the point is don't worry about it too much, if you like the effect go with it, but realistically pretty much all bullets fall into a small number of catagories, expanding (hollow point, soft point), fragmenting (glasers), armor piercing (KTW, steel or tungston core) and exploding (rare).

 

I like you idea for AP though, I think that is far better than the typical AP cuts armor in 1/2 which is far to powerful for most small arms projectiles.

 

As far as the body armor, I hear many people talk about body armor like you need a permit to buy it, many manufacturers will restrict the sale of body armor to "authorized" people, I know of no laws restricting the ownership of body armor.

[RDU Neil]

Here's a link to the Aquila site, if you want to look at what the manufacturer is saying.

 

http://aps.3av.com/photo4.html

 

On the body armor issue... I just happen to have a copy of Anderson's 2000 New Jersey Criminal Code (don't ask) and they have a specific penal law.

 

Section 2C:39-13 Unlawful Use of Body Vests which is "Use" or "Wear" of a body vest while engaged in "the commission of" or "attempt to commit" or "flight from" various standard crimes like murder, manslaughter, robbery, etc. is a third degree criminal offense.

 

Again, no penalty to own it... but using it in the commission of a crime IS a crime.

 

Ahhh... the things I learn, only because I play goofy role playing games.

[Storn]

Originally posted by RDU Neil

Dunno... seems readily available to me.

 

http://www.pointblankarmor.com/products/interceptor.asp

 

 

Well, color me stupid.

 

I'm wrong. It has happened before... it will happen again.

[DoctorItron]

Originally posted by Storn

Well, color me stupid.

 

I'm wrong. It has happened before... it will happen again.

 

You're an artist. Color yourself, rather than trying to pawn the work off on us