Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

[Dust Raven]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

Says who?

Oh sure, he could determine the correct down, by seeing which way things fall. And someone seeing a tiger charging him, that makes no sound and does not bend the grass under itself, can determine it's an Image. Which is irrelevant to where Sight is a sense or not.

Similarly for the sense of Balance.

 

 

What is light? It's (to simplify) photons. Does an Image of a laser swinging around and coming to point at your face cause burns? In HeroSystem, no; you need another power to do that. The fact that you need TK or some such to make a character "fall" does not mean Balance is not a sense.

 

 

No, TK makes the character move in some direction. Balance tells him which way is "down". I can have a TK that moves someone without him perceiving that direction is "down"; I see no reason to forbid an Image of "down" that doesn't move the target.

 

 

You can certainly declare that's what "down" means, but that's pretty much assuming that which you are trying prove.

If "down" is defined as the direction a being feels, then the perception and the effect of gravity can be separated.

To sum up...

 

The problem is that you are not detecting "down", you are detecting the pull of gravity. You just can't sense anything else as such unless it also pulls, and feels like gravity. TK can do this, and the "feeling" is just part of the SFX. A Sense Affecting Power cannot pull, and can never acheive this effect.

 

And don't forget, Balance not only tells you which way is "down", but also which way you are undergoing accelerated movement. That is why "getting dizzy" is an effect of the sense of Balance.

Getting dizzy is easily written off as an SFX of being Stunned, or of losing STUN. This are already game mechanics present in the system and need not be duplicated.

 

Well, if you want to engage is such whimsy, I will be the last person to gainsay you. I'm given to extremes of whimsy, myself.

However, it's totally moot, since the sense of Balance can't detect individuals anyway, so they're essentially invisible to Balance to begin with. Rather in the way that a bacterium is essentially invisible to normal Sight.

It is whimsy, but in my opinion there shouldn't a mechanic present just to satisfy a player's whimsy.

 

 

Two points:

1) I'm not sure the "perceive the environment" requirement should be adhered to with total rigor. In the case of Kinesthesia, the usefulness of treating it as a sense outweighs any inflexible "environment vs internal state" rule. I agree though that Hunger, Thirst, etc. are better left out of any expanded list of senses

Maybe it should, maybe it shouldn't. However, so far is has been by the current rules for Senses. I'm suggesting that any new senses continue with that trend, as that was seems to be the purpose for those rules.

2) I'm afraid your second qualification can be met, easily, if one is willing to. Your (and others) refusal to, does not show it can't be done, merely that you're unwilling to.

 

Which is your right, of course.

Anything can be done to the rules if one is willing to. but that doesn't make such a rule necessary or applicable.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

A subtle point is being missed here. Actually' date=' not being able to see has NO GAME MECHANIC IMPACT on combat, unless sight is your only targeting sense. If my character has passive sonar as a targeting sense, and you flash my sight, I am still at full combat value. You have to flash both sight and passive sonar, THUS REMOVING ALL MY TARGETING SENSES, to give me CV penalties. Flashing "balance" would not give me a penalty in combat, because I was not using "balance" to target you in the first place. All flash does IN MECHANICAL TERMS is temporarily prevent a character from using a sense to target.[/quote']

Incorrect. It also prevents you from reading, distinguishing colors, etc., IOW, all the things that sight specifically allows you to do. Let's see you cut the red wire and not the blue wire with just your passive sonar before the bomb goes off. I think you're missing a subtle point here (though I didn't think it was all that subtle myself, and I certainly didn't mean it to be): There are other impacts of the loss of a sense besides combat targeting. There are several published characters that have Flash vs. Hearing or other senses that are not normally targeting.

 

I do not claim that a loss of sense of balance must give a penalty in combat. That was the whole point of this thread. It *might* give penalties in combat, or it might do something else. What you you think it would do? The sense of balance is a real sense, and its temporary loss would do something.

 

I think buying this kind of attack as a flash is a way to get a drain or transform around a target's power defense. Who is going to by flash defense for their "balance" when they build a character? No one. Basically Its a NND that costs no points, and that is unfair and unbalanced. That doesn't mean that you cant have balancing affecting powers, but I would see it as a drain, or perhaps a transform.

I don't know if you've been actually reading my posts, so I'll say this again: I am not looking for a power that drains characteristics (Drain) or causes unblockable STUN damage (NND); I'm talking ablout a power that blocks a sense, in this case, the sense of balance.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

I have to disagree. I think you are making this needlessly complicated' date='[/quote']

Actually, I'm making it quite simple. Balance is a sense. There is an existing power for temporarily disrupting senses: Flash. Therefore, to temporarily disrupt a target's sense of balance, use Flash vs. Balance. Is this brain surgery?

 

We can argue academically what senses innner-ear sensation provides us.

But we don't need to do that, because we already know.

 

But for game terms, what do you want the power to do? If you really dont care WHAT combat or game effect it has, you can just call it a power effect of any other power and define it as "inner ear equilibrium disruption." Nausea or whatever effect you want to define that has no effect on anything is a free power effect.

This is not about "reasoning from effects". That isn't my point at all. I'm trying to determine what are the effects of a real-world scenario. What I want the power to do is simulate in game terms the loss of sense of balance. What those game term effects are is open to debate. I don't claim to fully know what they are. I've made a few suggestions and am open to reading others. I am not talking about an "induce nausea" power, or an "induce dizziness" power.

 

Maybe an analogy would make it clearer: AFAIK, there is no official game mechanic write-up for AIDS - the actual effects of AIDS on a character. If I wanted to come up with one, and I asked for suggestions on these boards, it doesn't help me at all for people to say, "What effect do you want?" The effect I want is as realistic an effect as possible. Someone else might say, "It's a Physical Limitation." Again, this would be of no help. What are the actual game effects of that Physical Limitation?

 

AIDS is a real disease in the real world which has a real effect on real people.

Balance is a real sense in the real world which, if disrupted would have a real effect. The question is: what is that real effect, in game terms? Simply blocking the signals of the nerves in the inner ear would not cause dizziness or nausea. It would only prevent the person from sensing balance. Hence: Flash.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

I don't want a Flash vs. Balance to make someone dizzy' date=' or to fall down, or to fall in some weird direction. Only the *sense* of balance is being blocked, which is not the same as actually losing one's balance. Though the former might contibute to the likelihood of the latter.[/quote']

 

So you want to be able to take away someone's sense of balance without them losing it?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balance

 

That isn't the way I interpreted it. An Image causes a false sensation. If there's a visual image' date=' I see it myself, I don't perceive others seeing it. If there's a tactile Image, I feel it myself, I don't perceive other's sense of touch. Likewise a kinesthetic Image would cause me to feel a sensation of my muscles moving, not others' muscles.[/quote']

 

I think I see why we aren't connecting here. At least in part. We interpret the Sense Affecting Powers differently. The way I understand them, and assume the majority of Herodom does as well, is thus: They either provide or remove information about the enviornment by adding to or subtracting from information gained through a character's senses. None of them change or alter any aspect of the characters involved. If there's an image of a slimy blob placed around character A, character A won't feel slimy, he'll feel something slimy covering/enveloping him. Likewise, if you were to use kinethetics as a sense in Hero and created an image of arms moving about around character A, character A wouldn't feel a thing, because he's arms are doing exactly what he wants them to and won't be confused by the image any more than he would if there was an invisible character B there moving his arms about instead of an image.

 

You are free to interpret the rules as you see fit, but the above is how I do it because I believe it makes more sense.

 

 

(A quick aside: Shape Shift is not a Sense-Affecting power. Please let's not rehash that argument again!)

Technicalities!

Again, so what? Those powers don't produce any sensory affect on another person. Image doesn't cause someone else to look different, smell different, or sound different either. Invisibility doesn't affect the perceiver in any of his regular senses either. And if you wanted to, couldn't you make, say, a visual Image over someone else's body to make them look different if you wanted them to?

According to your agrument earlier concerning making someone think that "down" is different than normal, they would. According what you've just said, you have just invalidated those examples.

 

 

OK, so what would the actual effect be of having the Mental Illusion of "I have no sense of balance"?

Whatever the player and GM agreed upon as being the effect would be the effect. Mental Illusions is quite flexible. You might as well have asked what the effect of being on fire would be.

 

 

This isn't what I'm talking about. I want a power that cause a loss of a sense, namely balance. Just because you lose your sense of balance doesn't mean you feel dizziness or vertigo, etc. It just means that those organs in your inner ear no longer provide information about your balance.

I'm a little confused as to exactly what you want here, and how it would apply at this point. I'll read your posts after this one I'm replying to and see if it becomes more clear.

 

 

-14 DEX seems awefully harsh just for sense of balance. I think we get far more of our DEX and CV from our Sight and our higher brain functions, learning, practice and development of physical skill, and yes, some of it comes from the kinesthetic sense as well.

Not necessarily. I've never known anyone without a sense of balance, even temporily. The dizziness alone could account for an immediate drop to 0 or less DEX. Even with a single point of DEX you can still stand up and move normally, you'd just have touble moving accurately at high speed. That's not dizzy, that's clumsy, which has nothing to do with being dizzy or having a lack of a sense of balance.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balance

 

Likewise. I'm not sure why it's taking so long to reset' date=' but I see you've gained quite a bit recently.[/quote']

 

I see that too. It usually comes in large spurts. Nothing for two or three months, then BAM and suddenly I'm repped by everyone for one reason or another and I gain another little green box. I try to spread it back but the boards won't let me. I think I'll just have to start repping people at random just to "spread" enough to make the message board gods happy...

[Dust Raven]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

Now' date=' with balance, the issue is that it doesn't give you any information OUTSIDE of your own body.[/quote']

God' date=' can people [b']please[/b] stop saying this? It's utterly WRONG. In fact, it doesn't give me any information about what's inside my body, ONLY what's outside it.

 

Well, technically, you are wrong as well. the sense of balance, if it senses anything at all, detects a force applied to the body and nothing more. It's used to determe motion and orientation and applies outside of a gravity well (ask any astronaught).

 

The question is, what's this "force" then? It's nothing but Newtonian physics in motion (pun intended ).

 

To follow up on Phil's job list:

Job one turns out to be the most complicated. Obviously the effects of losing the sense of balance would be to not be able to detect these forces. The questions then is: What would that do? It's that answer that can't be answered simply because it all depends on what the force is doing and how it's being applied. Turning around is different that walking forward, which is different that standing up, which is different than "knowing" which way is down... but it's all in those vestibulars and it's all the same sense.

Job two, at least in my opinion, is a no brainer. Vestibular sense can't be affected by Sense-Affecting Powers. Vestibular doesn't act like other senses, isn't used like other senses, and the things it detects aren't nebulous information subject to interpretation, but rather kinetic and potential energy. These are best simulated through other Powers, such as TK (great for that motion effect).

Job three is obviously up to debate, as none of us can agree on what the loss of balance would exactly do, at least in game mechanics, but at least most of those who have tried have come up with a working solution rather quickly, so it's hardly a difficult task.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

First, sorry to everybody for the sudden massive posting... I've just moved and it was horrible and I just got my internet back and... and... I guess I'll continue my post now...

 

Balance is a real sense in the real world which' date=' if disrupted would have a real effect. The question is: what is that real effect, in game terms?[/quote']

 

Pain is a real sense in the reas world, which, if disrupted would have a real effect. Just as real as sight, hearing and balance. That doesn't mean you should be able to Flash it. Removal of the pain sense would pretty much mean the character won't take STUN anymore, or at least won't take STUN damage cause by the effects of pain. I seriously hope you don't think you can Flash pain, or create an Image of pain, or be Invisible to Pain, or have Discriminaroty, Analyse x100 Rapid pain with Range and Targeting.

[The Hyborian]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

Incorrect. It also prevents you from reading, distinguishing colors, etc., IOW, all the things that sight specifically allows you to do. Let's see you cut the red wire and not the blue wire with just your passive sonar before the bomb goes off. I think you're missing a subtle point here (though I didn't think it was all that subtle myself, and I certainly didn't mean it to be): There are other impacts of the loss of a sense besides combat targeting. There are several published characters that have Flash vs. Hearing or other senses that are not normally targeting.

 

I don't know if you've been actually reading my posts, so I'll say this again: I am not looking for a power that drains characteristics (Drain) or causes unblockable STUN damage (NND); I'm talking ablout a power that blocks a sense, in this case, the sense of balance.

 

Quite correct. What I should have said is that it does not have an effect on your Combat Values.

 

As for loosing your sense of balance, Im not sure what effect it could have other than penalites to movement and targeting. Balance keeps you oriented in space, and messing with it should have some negative penalites. But, flash is the wrong tool to simulate this. If you flash my blance, I cant target with it, which I probably was not doing in the first place (except for Basil of course). To impose combat penalites beyond that exceeds the mandate of what the flash power does. And if the power has no effect beyond removing balance as a targeting sense, then you have paid points for an attack that makes your target a little woozy, but has no real game effect.

 

You ask "what would this do?" The real question is "what would you want it do?" The heart and soul of Hero is that the powers are FX independant. Think of what you want your attack to do, and then choose the power(s) that best represent it. Its totally up to you what disruption of balance would do to someone. Thats because disruption of balance is a Fx, not a power or game mechanic. Don't think in terms of "what would happen if I flashed balance?" Thats a game mechanic effect. Decide what your special effect would do, then look at some other powers to simulate it.

[atlascott]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

What if I wanted to make "Hunger Boy," whose tremendous 'sense' of hunger gave him superhuman powers. HUNGER IS A SENSE. End of story. You are an infantile monkey with a speech impediment if you do not agree.

 

So he could close his eyes and fight bad guys with this superhuman sense of hunger. He could shoot his hunger energy blast at whoever and make them hungry. He could mind control people and make them hungry. He could eat 20x his body weight in 10 minutes (probably a Tranform).

 

This character conception is 100% within the rules.

 

But, he would STILL need to define his "hunger sense" according to the rules--ie., fit hunger sense into the rules. Does his hunger send undulations in the space-time continuum, which bounce back to his massive belly, and THAT is how he senses the location of his enemies? Active sonar. Does others' hunger emit energy that bounce off his bulbous belly? Passive sonar. Get the idea? A sense in the game which cannot do what you want it to do inherently can only be defined as either extending the sense in a rational way, or by defining it using the other HERO system Powers.

 

A "sense" of balance helps keep your balance. If you extend the "sense" of balance, you buy more DEX or something. No additional amount of DEX is going to allow the "sense" of balance to help you perceive things outside your body, other than the direction of the gravitational pull. So, build Balance Boy or Hunger Boy, but if you really want to build him according to the rules, and he is going to sense enemies (ie, make his 'sense of hunger' or 'sense of balance' targeting), then he must build them by buying existing sense powers and simply defining them as balance sense--but built with, eg, sonar, etc.

 

And, Basil, by REFUSING to define what GAME EFFECT you want your "block sense of balance" power to have, you ask the unanswerable question. Because determining game effect is EXACTLY how you are supposed to build and balance characters in the HERO system.

 

Or, if Balance Boy's "block balance" power does nothing, he gets that power for free. Because it has no game effect.

[Basil]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

{snip}

TK makes the character move in some direction. Balance tells him which way is "down". I can have a TK that moves someone without him perceiving that direction is "down"; I see no reason to forbid an Image of "down" that doesn't move the target.

 

If "down" is defined as the direction a being feels, then the perception and the effect of gravity can be separated.

 

To sum up...

 

The problem is that you are not detecting "down", you are detecting the pull of gravity.

No, you are detecting a sensation which may as well be called "down". Just as you are detecting a sensation of "light" or "noise". Such a separation between what may or may not be "out there," and the action of sensing must be made, or the Power Metal Illusions becomes impossible. If I can make a Mental Illusion of it, then there has to be a damned good reason why I can't make an Image of it. BTW, 5th Ed p.130 specifically mentions "...the target's sense of balance..." And in all the examples of Mental Illusions on that and the preceeding page there is not one, that, I bet, anyone here would deny could be done with Images, save those who who do not accept Balance as a sense.

 

You just can't sense anything else as such unless it also pulls' date=' and feels like gravity.[/quote']

I think we need to review the mechanism of the sense of balance.

The sense of Balance comes from the Semi-circular Canals; a set of three semi-circular tubes next to each cochlea. The three tubes are set at roughly right angles to each other. Each fluid-filled tube is lined with "hairs" and contains a small "stone". As that stone moves, the hairs are brushed against, and report the stone's movements. The primary force moving the stones most of the time is gravity, but the centrifugal effect, and acceleration, can also move them. Thus, one does not detect "the pull of gravity"; one detects the sum of all forces/effects on 6 little bits of grit in the inner ear. This usually reflects the force of gravity; when one is in motion, other forces and effects are detected.

As with all senses, false detection and non-detection can occur. For instance, various diseases can interfere with balance; indeed, many times a high fever will do so. As well, Mental Illusions can substitute a "lie" for the true report of the semi-circular canals. Why, therefore, cannot an Image do so? Why cannot a Flash, or a Darkness act against those nerve impulses?

That a Darkness or a Flash to the sense of Sight can be caused completely externally to the body does not mean they cannot be caused by interfering with the nerve impulses: after all, isn't "interfering with the nerves/brain" the classic explanation for a mentalist's Flash or Darkness?

Thus, the idea that one could cause an effect to the nerve impulses thereby creating a Flash or Darkness (or Image) to the Sense of Balance cannot be dismissed out of hand.

 

Two points:

1) I'm not sure the "perceive the environment" requirement should be adhered to with total rigor. In the case of Kinesthesia, the usefulness of treating it as a sense outweighs any inflexible "environment vs internal state" rule. I agree though that Hunger, Thirst, etc. are better left out of any expanded list of senses.

Maybe it should, maybe it shouldn't. However, so far is has been by the current rules for Senses. I'm suggesting that any new senses continue with that trend, as that was seems to be the purpose for those rules.

I would say the purpose of any new sense is to better model those aspect of the real world that have (A) an effect in game and ( are most simply, clearly, and intuitively modeled by Senses in game-language terms. I think Kinesthesia falls into the category, but I admit I fell far less strongly about that than about the Sense of Balance.

 

2) I'm afraid your second qualification can be met, easily, if one is willing to. Your (and others) refusal to, does not show it can't be done, merely that you're unwilling to.

 

Which is your right, of course.

Anything can be done to the rules if one is willing to. but that doesn't make such a rule necessary or applicable.

True, but I think adding another Sense is an inherently simpler and more elegant method than bodging together a bunch of Lims & Advantages on a Drain or what-have-you.

 

Still, to each his own.

[Basil]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

{snip Straw-Man argument and argumentum ad hominem}

And, Basil, by REFUSING to define what GAME EFFECT you want your "block sense of balance" power to have, you ask the unanswerable question. Because determining game effect is EXACTLY how you are supposed to build and balance characters in the HERO system.

I want any "block", etc. to the Sense of Balance to be that which occurs with a "block", etc. to any other Sense. As it says on page 114 of the 5th Edition:

See pages 226-227' date=' 245, 283 for details.[/quote']

[Basil]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

I was referring to a single character that is invisible to the vestibular sense. There is no effect' date=' because that character never was the direction of down.[/quote']

Well, if you want to engage is such whimsy, I will be the last person to gainsay you. I'm given to extremes of whimsy, myself.

However, it's totally moot, since the sense of Balance can't detect individuals anyway, so they're essentially invisible to Balance to begin with. Rather in the way that a bacterium is essentially invisible to normal Sight.

It is whimsy, but in my opinion there shouldn't a mechanic present just to satisfy a player's whimsy.

I'm afraid you misunderstood me. I was saying that having a single character take "Invisibility to the Sense of Balance" would be whimsical, as he cannot be sensed by ordinary, unimproved Human sense of Balance. Now, if there were a foe who had Targeting, Discrim, or some-such on its Sense of Balance, it would not be so whimsical.

 

The only "mechanic present" in your original statement is Invisibility, and I do no think it exists "just to satisfy a player's whimsy."

 

If you think I urge adding Balance to the list of existant Sense solely, or primarily, out of whimsy, you sadly mistake me.

[The Hyborian]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

I want any "block", etc. to the Sense of Balance to be that which occurs with a "block", etc. to any other Sense. As it ways on page 114 of the 5th Edition:

See pages 226-227' date=' 245, 283 for details.[/quote']

 

That means almost nothing.

 

All it says is that it allows you to "blind and opponents sense", and that "A flashed character who cannot perceive his opponents with a targeting sense suffers penalties to his DCV and OCV."

 

Unless the target's only active targeting sense was a special sense with a balance Fx, there are no combat effects.

 

For the duration of the power, the target feels woozy and cant tell which way is down with his eyes closed.

 

If you want it to do anything other than that,which is more or less nothing, you need to buy another power with the same special effect to inflict those effects on the target.

 

That assumes the GM lets you buy the "balance flash" in the first place, but as it looks like it would not actually do anything, I would probably let you waste the points.

[Basil]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

That isn't the way I interpreted it. An Image causes a false sensation. If there's a visual image, I see it myself, I don't perceive others seeing it. If there's a tactile Image, I feel it myself, I don't perceive other's sense of touch. Likewise a kinesthetic Image would cause me to feel a sensation of my muscles moving, not others' muscles.

I think I see why we aren't connecting here. At least in part. We interpret the Sense Affecting Powers differently. The way I understand them, and assume the majority of Herodom does as well, is thus: They either provide or remove information about the enviornment by adding to or subtracting from information gained through a character's senses. None of them change or alter any aspect of the characters involved. If there's an image of a slimy blob placed around character A, character A won't feel slimy, he'll feel something slimy covering/enveloping him. Likewise, if you were to use kinethetics as a sense in Hero and created an image of arms moving about around character A,

It seems to me this is where you are missing Phil's point. If I understand correctly, he is not talking about "an image of arms moving about around character A," but about an Image of character A moving his own arms around. That is, the Image is what the character perceives about himself, not about some disembodied arms.

Now, admittedly, this is where the sticking point about Kinesthesia comes in; it does not sense something happening outside the individual's body. If the usefulness and elegance of treating Kinesthesia as a Sense (in Hero System terms) is, to (generic) you outweighed by the "internal" characteristic of Kinesthesia, then I have little objection to your not treating it as a Sense.

BTW, although the rules (5th Ed., page 121) say: "All characters with Line Of Sight notice the Image", this is contradicted by common sense. After all, I can't detect an Image to Touch (sans Targeting, etc.) if I'm outside the area covered by the Image, so there's no reason to insist an Image to Kinesthesia (or Balance, for that matter) be perceivable by someone outside the area of that Image.

[atlascott]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

Basil:

 

A 'straw man' argument is one meant to direct attention away from the real issue. An ad hominem att ack takes the form of "Mr. X's argument is false because he is an alcoholic (or insert whatever name-calling you want)"--it is basically saying that, despite reasoning and the truth or falsity of the position on its merits, one should not give the idea any credit because the owner of the arument is a _____, and in the blank, insert whatever name you want.

 

I agree that either is not fair argument. But I also deny using either.

 

I did use the Hunger Boy and Balance Boy example, and I apologize if you feel that my post attacked you.

 

I stand by what I wrote. By refusing to define the game effect 'block balance' has, you'll never be able to legally fit it in the hero system.

 

Personally, it is my impression that the characteristic of DEX simulates sense of balance, and no 'sense' of balance should be appropriately added to HERO system rules, since any balance effecting power can be easily simulated with the rules which exist.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

So you want to be able to take away someone's sense of balance without them losing it?

They lose their *sense* of blance, without necessarily losing their *balance*.

 

If I see a stationary chair, and then I lose my sense of sight, I don't instantly forget where the chair was.

 

If I am standing well-balanced on the ground, and then I lose my sense of balance, I don't instantly fall down or become dizzy.

 

This is at least the second time I've said this. I don't see why it's so difficult to understand.

 

According to your agrument earlier concerning making someone think that "down" is different than normal, they would. According what you've just said, you have just invalidated those examples.

No. A sense affecting power does not make anyone "think" anything. That would require Mind Control or some other Mental power. Sense Affecting powers alter or prevent sensory input. If I can no longer detect the force of gravity with my semicircular canals, I can still tell which way is down with my sight (I see the ground and the sky, etc.), with my touch (I feel the pressure and weight of my body and on my feet), and also somewhat with my kinesthetic sense (when I relax my muscles, they go down, when I lift my limbs against gravity, it takes more effort, etc.).

 

Whatever the player and GM agreed upon as being the effect would be the effect. Mental Illusions is quite flexible. You might as well have asked what the effect of being on fire would be.

But I already know what the effect of fire is. Fire is a well-established effect in HERO rules. I don't understand why everyone keeps dodging the question: You are the GM. What is the game effect of the loss of the sense of balance?

 

a) Nothing.

Direct loss of DEX or CV.

c) Loss of STUN or other characteristics.

d) Other.

 

This is "job one" and I understand that it is the most difficult. My answer is d. If I wanted the effect of b or c, then yes, I would use a Drain/Suppress and I wouldn't have even felt the need to discuss it.

 

I'm a little confused as to exactly what you want here, and how it would apply at this point. I'll read your posts after this one I'm replying to and see if it becomes more clear.

I'm not sure how I could make it more clear.

 

A Flash could have many different SFX. All that is required is that the brain doesn't receive the information that would have been provided by the sense. That could mean the nerve carrying the info from the sensory organ to the brain is blocked. It could mean that the signal in the nerve is scrambled. It could mean that the sensory organ is overloaded with stimulation. It could mean that the sensory organ is covered or blocked off from its source of stimulation. It could mean the sensory organ is given weird information that it can't process.

 

Another possible* effect of loss of sense of balance occurs to me: Without a sense of balance, you might* not be able to Set or Brace properly.

 

* The standard disclaimer applies. Not I said "possible" and "might," not "definite" and "must."

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

Well' date=' technically, you are wrong as well. the sense of balance, if it senses anything at all, detects a force applied to the body and nothing more. It's used to determe motion and orientation and applies outside of a gravity well (ask any astronaught).[/quote']

Well, technically, ALL senses ONLY give information about things WITHIN the body. The easiest example is the sense of smell. Contrary to the rules mechanic, smell is not "ranged." You only smell the air that is in your nostrils. You don't have any "nose nerves" that reach out of your nose like tentacles and seek out smellable gasses and particles in the air.

 

Likewise, you only see the light that passes though the lenses of your eyes and is absorbed by your retinae. You only hear the vibrations of your eardrums. It's all stuff going on inside your sensory organs. The semicircular canals are no different.

 

And there are plenty of sensations that originate within your body that you can sense with your normal senses as well. If you plug your ears, you can hear blood running through the vessels near your ears, and you can still hear your own voice. Without any outside-your-body influence, you can see the "floaters" - little distortions in the vitreous humor - within your eyes.

 

Inside the body or outside the body makes no difference. It's still a sense. It's still providing information that the brain can then process.

[atlascott]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

Phil:

 

if all your eyes, ears and nose did were process things already inside them, we'd be in real trouble. Obviously light bouncing off different things differently comes from outside the body, into the body, to help us interpret stuff on the outside world. SAme with smell--we are actually smelling particles of something without that came fromw ithout, into our nose. Same with sound vibrations.

 

Contrast that with liquid in our ears being pulled downward by the force of gravity.

 

As as far as blocking sense of balance not causing anyone to fall down, as long as they can see the ground, talk to anyonew with a bad ear infection or inner ear injury. Yeah, they DO experience vertigo.

 

Obviously, no one is going to convince you or Basil of anything, so play the rules as you see fit. You aren't goign to convince anyone that HERO is broken because its doesnt contain the Sense: Balance.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

Pain is a real sense in the reas world' date=' which, if disrupted would have a real effect. Just as real as sight, hearing and balance.[/quote']

I'm with you so far.

 

That doesn't mean you should be able to Flash it. Removal of the pain sense would pretty much mean the character won't take STUN anymore, or at least won't take STUN damage cause by the effects of pain.

If that's how you would interpret the effects of a Flash pain, then I can certainly understand why you wouldn't allow it. However, I wouldn't interpret it that way, and therefore I might still allow it. I would say a person with his sense of pain Flashed would still take STUN, he just wouldn't be able to feel pain. Again, the only thing a Flash should do is stop sensory information from getting to the brain that would otherwise do so.

 

I seriously hope you don't think you can Flash pain, or create an Image of pain, or be Invisible to Pain, or have Discriminaroty, Analyse x100 Rapid pain with Range and Targeting.

Well I certainly wouldn't allow someone to get the benefits of a "Temporary Immunity to All STUN Damage, Usable on an Unlimited Number of Others" for the price of a simple Flash. And I also have no idea what Rapid, Range, and Targeting would do for Pain.

 

But I seriously hope that you would allow someone to take Flash vs Touch, since that is a defined sense in the rulebook, but that you wouldn't give it a disproportional effect like total immunity to STUN damage, but rather let it have an effect appropriate to the points spent. Remember also that pain is a part of the Touch sense.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

You are an infantile monkey with a speech impediment if you do not agree.

This sets off my "Detect Troll" sense.

[atlascott]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

I'm not a Troll, dude. That was a joke based on another guy's post adamantly asserting that balance is a sense like sight, 'end of discussion.' See my other very sweet apologetic post, above.

[The Hyborian]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

Basil:

 

A 'straw man' argument is one meant to direct attention away from the real issue. An ad hominem att ack takes the form of "Mr. X's argument is false because he is an alcoholic (or insert whatever name-calling you want)"--it is basically saying that, despite reasoning and the truth or falsity of the position on its merits, one should not give the idea any credit because the owner of the arument is a _____, and in the blank, insert whatever name you want.

 

I agree that either is not fair argument. But I also deny using either.

 

I did use the Hunger Boy and Balance Boy example, and I apologize if you feel that my post attacked you.

 

I stand by what I wrote. By refusing to define the game effect 'block balance' has, you'll never be able to legally fit it in the hero system.

 

Personally, it is my impression that the characteristic of DEX simulates sense of balance, and no 'sense' of balance should be appropriately added to HERO system rules, since any balance effecting power can be easily simulated with the rules which exist.

 

Don't worry Atlascott, I took Basil's comments about the "Straw Man" etc. to be a rather high handed way to not answer the meat of your argument. Its a strategy less formally known as the "try to look smart and keep talking" method. Its typically what a college professor/politician does when someone asks them a question they can't answer.

 

If Basil wanted to discredit your arguments he should have attacked its merits, not made an arcane reference that only some of the posters he would catch and then move on as if that settled the matter. It would have been better so say nothing, quote only the part he chose to respond to, and make his point there. I find the whole approach very telling.

 

T.H.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

I'm afraid you misunderstood me. I was saying that having a single character take "Invisibility to the Sense of Balance" would be whimsical' date=' as he cannot be sensed by ordinary, unimproved Human sense of Balance. Now, if there were a foe who had Targeting, Discrim, or some-such on its Sense of Balance, it would not be so whimsical.[/quote']

 

The thing is, even if you make the sense of balance a Sense, putting Discriminatory, Tageting, blah blah blah on it wouldn't allow you to detect another character, or anything really. In fact, you really couldn't put targeting on it at all, because there is often nothing detected that can be targeted (just try to shoot the force of gravity or a centrfugal force).

If you think I urge adding Balance to the list of existant Sense solely, or primarily, out of whimsy, you sadly mistake me.

No, I do not mistake you, I just believe you are trying to make something into something which it is not just because of semantics that have nothing to do with game mechanics.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

It seems to me this is where you are missing Phil's point. If I understand correctly' date=' he is not talking about "an image of arms moving about around character A," but about an Image of character A moving his own arms around. That is, the Image is what the character perceives about himself, not about some disembodied arms.[/quote']

I understand this, I just disagree with it. Images doesn't work that way. Otherwise you can make an "Image" of ruptured organs, of an object mysteriously appearing inside someone's head, etc. Images just can't do this. Other Powers can of course, but not Images.

Now, admittedly, this is where the sticking point about Kinesthesia comes in; it does not sense something happening outside the individual's body. If the usefulness and elegance of treating Kinesthesia as a Sense (in Hero System terms) is, to (generic) you outweighed by the "internal" characteristic of Kinesthesia, then I have little objection to your not treating it as a Sense.

BTW, although the rules (5th Ed., page 121) say: "All characters with Line Of Sight notice the Image", this is contradicted by common sense. After all, I can't detect an Image to Touch (sans Targeting, etc.) if I'm outside the area covered by the Image, so there's no reason to insist an Image to Kinesthesia (or Balance, for that matter) be perceivable by someone outside the area of that Image.

Common sense and logic have little to do with the rules. When you bring those into play, you are bringing along preconceptions of certan SFX which will not apply in every situation. I think the word "sense" is one of those situations. It doesn't always mean the same thing, and just because science has called certain things senses doesn't mean the rules have to, or should.