Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

[BNakagawa]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

targetting taste? Ask Tongue-tongue.

 

targetting smell? Seen that before, too. Repeatedly, actually.

 

targetting balance? Not seeing it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

The enemy is down.

 

(noprize for getting that reference!)

 

Isn't job number one to decide what effect not having a sense of balance should have and then modelling that?

 

I mean you can get around it with a 3 point skill: ask any astronaut.

 

Hell, you could probably model it best with a change environment power. That's quite good for making people fall down. You could avoid it with an INT roll or a zero G manoeuvring roll: you can work out where your limbs need to be if you still have a kinesthetic sense.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

The problem is that the inability to see or hear is already defined by Hero, as to a large extent is the inability to smell or taste: the effects are set out in game terms already.

 

Touch is ALWAYS the bugbear though: look at the debate on shapeshifting or invisibility, for example: the sense that makes no sense is touch, and it is the same here.

 

I would be strongly inclined not to read too much into the loss of touch. I would leave flash or darkness to touch defined simply as the inability to sense external objects/stimulii by touch, and not worry about the possible internal effects (yes, I know gravity is external: ignore that). It is potentially powerful enough that an opponent won't know that you are hitting them with an IPE NND attack until they fall over unconscious: you want to make them dizzy, buy CE or DEX drain or MI or whatever.

 

Anyway, if you really want to think it through, a lot of the damage you get from most attacks, the stun part anyway, is pain. If you render someone unable to sense pain, then you should be giving them damage reduction (stun only) with the attack. Can't see anyone volunteering to boost an opponent's defences, can you?

 

At the very basic level, if you are not sure how to apply it, and you are not happy with the way a player applies it in a particular construct, don't allow it.

[The Hyborian]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

Well, since Targeting Taste is not possible, and Smell can never be accurately Targeting, are they not senses? Or are you willing to "hand wave" the science? In that case, why not Targeting Balance?

 

After all, perhaps my alien-from-another-dimension character can tell what direction is down "way over yonder". Very helpful sense in an Escherverse.

 

 

Why cant smell be a targeting sense? You just have to pay the points to make it targeting. If I am playing Captain Grizzly, avenger of the wilderness, I think he might have smell so sensitive that I can target with it. Its just a matter of playing the points.

 

As for Taste, the problem is that taste is no range in its default state. You have to touch something with your tounge to taste it. Pay the points for range and you can taste from across the room. Weird FX probably, but you can do it. Pay some more points and your ranged taste is so sensitive you can target with it.

 

Now, with balance, the issue is that it doesn't give you any information OUTSIDE of your own body. It just affects you, it does not sense other objects, even if you are touching them. As I said in my post, its an awareness, but not a sense. It doesn't tell you where a foe is.

 

Further, i think significant penalties from a Flash attack are out of game balance. Now, before someone freaks and writes a flame post about what happens when you get flashed, think about this. Flash does not impose penalties, but rather you have combat penalties when you no longer have a working targeting sense. You can flash my sight all day long, but if I have another targeting sense I can use then my CVs stay the same. By flashing balance you want to impose signigicant combat penalties without any recorse for the target character. Who buys a "backup" for balance? What is really being talked about here is a cheap drain, and I would thus disallow it if it was my campaign. I dont have problems with a power that disrupts the targets balance, but it needs to be purchased another way, probably through and adjustment power.

 

As for your alien with the ability to sense which way is "down" at a distance, thats a detect with range, defined as "detect spacial alignment". It would be nearly useless on a standard earth, but in a dimension jumping campagin perhaps it would be necessary.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

where a foe is.

 

Further, i think significant penalties from a Flash attack are out of game balance. Now, before someone freaks and writes a flame post about what happens when you get flashed, think about this. Flash does not impose penalties, but rather you have combat penalties when you no longer have a working targeting sense. You can flash my sight all day long, but if I have another targeting sense I can use then my CVs stay the same. By flashing balance you want to impose signigicant combat penalties without any recorse for the target character. Who buys a "backup" for balance? What is really being talked about here is a cheap drain, and I would thus disallow it if it was my campaign. I dont have problems with a power that disrupts the targets balance, but it needs to be purchased another way, probably through and adjustment power.

 

Excellent point.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

Just because the term 'sense' is often applied to balance doesn't mean there ought to be an option to flash this 'sense'.

 

Otherwise, I could just as easily flash your sense of wonder, your sense of security, your sense of timing, your sense of fair play or your sense of humor...

[The Hyborian]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

Just because the term 'sense' is often applied to balance doesn't mean there ought to be an option to flash this 'sense'.

 

Otherwise, I could just as easily flash your sense of wonder, your sense of security, your sense of timing, your sense of fair play or your sense of humor...

lol

 

I flash your sense of comedic timing, no wisecracks for the rest of the fight. . .

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

eh? Weren't you the guy suggesting no concentration powers at all, 1/2 ocv, -1 per rolls and half movement and on and on and on?

 

This is not a hose?

That was just an off-the-cuff suggestion of some possible effects, not that all of them should necessarily be applied and even those might be too harsh in retrospect. Isn't Flash vs. Sight a significant hose? 1/2 CV with ranged attacks, no seeing things, ro reading, etc.

 

Rather than inventing a brand new mechanic, why don't we use what we already have. We have rules for draining dexterity to 0 and below, don't we?

I'm not inventing a new mechanic. I'm using the existing mechanic for Flash and some other Sense-Affecting powers.

 

Another thought for blocked sense of balance:

-2 on Acrobatics and Breakfall rolls

Make a DEX Roll when making a ranged attack, failure=-2 OCV (waived if the target is stationary)

Similar DEX Roll required for certain fancy, acrobatic HtH attacks, like a handstand kick

Something similar for any situation where you have to lean without looking at the ground, such as to catch a thrown object or falling character.

 

I don't want a Flash vs. Balance to make someone dizzy, or to fall down, or to fall in some weird direction. Only the *sense* of balance is being blocked, which is not the same as actually losing one's balance. Though the former might contibute to the likelihood of the latter.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balance

 

The only reason I haven't given you rep for your recent posts on the topic is that I can't yet.

Likewise. I'm not sure why it's taking so long to reset, but I see you've gained quite a bit recently.

 

I see the whole Flash/Darkness issue as a denial of information, rather than a denial of bodily function (there, that much be what I'm trying to get at!). A Flash versus hunger doesn't deprive the target of any information, just a feeling. Sure, they won't know they are hungry, but for the purposes of game play, did they really need to know in the first place?

So do I. But Flash vs. Hunger *is* depriving you of information - as to how full your stomach is. And no, in game terms, that probably is of no importance at all, but so what? No one is forcing you to buy a power that isn't useful.

 

The thing with this is that Sense Affecting Powers that provide sensory input, or selectively remove it (Images and Invisibility) can't do crap for things like vestibular (btw, vestibular sense is the sense of balance) or kinesthetics.

Again, so what? Invisibility vs. Taste doesn't do anything either, unless someone tries to taste you. Just because not every HERO System Sense-Affecting Power makes sense to be used on the sense of balance doesn't mean the ones that do make sense can't be used.

 

And BTW, even Invisibility to Hunger could be used: If I'm invisible to hunger and a shark eats me, it won't feel satisfied afterwards. (That'll show him!) A bizarre, and not terribly useful, effect to be sure, but again, no one is forcing you to buy something that isn't useful.

 

An Image of the sensation of an arm moving about won't affect anyone unless someone in range of the Image has a sense that could detect kinesthetic sensations in others (and then the Images should be bought verses that unique/unusual sense and not kinesthetics).

That isn't the way I interpreted it. An Image causes a false sensation. If there's a visual image, I see it myself, I don't perceive others seeing it. If there's a tactile Image, I feel it myself, I don't perceive other's sense of touch. Likewise a kinesthetic Image would cause me to feel a sensation of my muscles moving, not others' muscles.

 

You can't use Shape Shift or Images or Invisibility to make someone feel something different about themselves.

(A quick aside: Shape Shift is not a Sense-Affecting power. Please let's not rehash that argument again!)

Again, so what? Those powers don't produce any sensory affect on another person. Image doesn't cause someone else to look different, smell different, or sound different either. Invisibility doesn't affect the perceiver in any of his regular senses either. And if you wanted to, couldn't you make, say, a visual Image over someone else's body to make them look different if you wanted them to?

 

Mental Illusions (with or without a Limitation depending upon what else the particular character can do with it) is one method.

OK, so what would the actual effect be of having the Mental Illusion of "I have no sense of balance"?

 

Another I like to use is Suppress STUN xd6, Instant. .... I usually equate the Stunned game mechanic for temporary vertigo, dissorientation or loss of balance or cooridination, which can be brought about by a number of methods.

This isn't what I'm talking about. I want a power that cause a loss of a sense, namely balance. Just because you lose your sense of balance doesn't mean you feel dizziness or vertigo, etc. It just means that those organs in your inner ear no longer provide information about your balance.

 

There is, of course, the Drain/Suppress DEX route, which brings with it the associated penalties for losing DEX. ....a 12d6 Suppress can rob a character of 14 points of DEX on average (-5 CV) ...

-14 DEX seems awefully harsh just for sense of balance. I think we get far more of our DEX and CV from our Sight and our higher brain functions, learning, practice and development of physical skill, and yes, some of it comes from the kinesthetic sense as well.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

Now' date=' with balance, the issue is that it doesn't give you any information OUTSIDE of your own body. It just affects you, it does not sense other objects, even if you are touching them. As I said in my post, its an awareness, but not a sense. It doesn't tell you where a foe is.[/quote']

I'd be inclined to say that balance already is targeting. It's extremely accurate in healthy adult humans. And it does detect information from outside the body, namely gravity.

 

When you come right down to it, no sense gives you information about the outside world - all senses take place within the body. Sight is just a reaction in the cells of your retina, taste is just a reaction of the cells in your taste buds, etc. It's your brain that then draws conclusions about the outside world.

 

And I don't see what's so important about the whole "inside the body/outside the body" distinction anyway. A sense is a sense. And there are medical case histories of all these senses being impaired or underdeveloped.

 

Flash does not impose penalties, but rather you have combat penalties when you no longer have a working targeting sense.

Well that's all I'm asking for.

 

You can flash my sight all day long, but if I have another targeting sense I can use then my CVs stay the same.

And a Flash vs. balance doesn't automatically make you dizzy and fall down. If you have another way of balancing yourself (such as sight), you don't have to fall.

 

I dont have problems with a power that disrupts the targets balance, but it needs to be purchased another way, probably through and adjustment power.

So how would you build it?

 

Just because certain HERO System constucts don't make sense with certain senses, either in the real world or with comic-book science, doesn't mean they can't be used in ways that do make sense. Flash vs. sense of balance makes sense, even if Invisibility to sense of balance doesn't.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

Isn't job number one to decide what effect not having a sense of balance should have and then modelling that?

Actually, that's two different jobs.

 

Job one is to decide what the effect of not having the sense is.

Job two is to decide if the sense should be allowed to be affected by Sense-Affecting powers.

If not, job three is to decide how to model the effects you got from job one.

 

If you decide that not having a sense of balance means that you must make a DEX Roll to avoid several different effects (-2 OCV for ranged attacks, -2 on Acrobatics and Breakfall, fall down when leaning without looking at the ground, etc.), how do you model all that with other powers?

 

Because I've decided in Job 2 to treat all senses as Senses, I don't have to do Job 3 at all! Which is good, because I've got enough to do already. And Job 3 is the hardest one.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

Actually, that's two different jobs.

 

Job one is to decide what the effect of not having the sense is.

Job two is to decide if the sense should be allowed to be affected by Sense-Affecting powers.

If not, job three is to decide how to model the effects you got from job one.

 

If you decide that not having a sense of balance means that you must make a DEX Roll to avoid several different effects (-2 OCV for ranged attacks, -2 on Acrobatics and Breakfall, fall down when leaning without looking at the ground, etc.), how do you model all that with other powers?

 

Because I've decided in Job 2 to treat all senses as Senses, I don't have to do Job 3 at all! Which is good, because I've got enough to do already. And Job 3 is the hardest one.

 

 

Well you can model it easy enough with negative skill levels and change environment (no area) you can negate with a DEX roll.

 

Mind you a DEX roll won't help if you lose your sense of balance: what you really need is the experience of working without it, or the smarts to work out where to but your limbs, so an INT/PER roll would work better.

 

Look up sense effecting powers 5ER 125: they limit, hinder or alter senses, nothing more. Losing vision gives you penalties because you can not percieve your opponent: in reality you'd probably fall over if you suddenly went blind, and didn't stand still, but that is not what the system does - the penalties imposed are the consequences of not being able to perceive a target or an aggressor, not the internal consequences of sudden inability to see. Losing touch (pi) should work the same.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

Look up sense effecting powers 5ER 125: they limit' date=' hinder or alter senses, nothing more.[/quote']

I know that. That's all I'm asking for. Maybe I'm not making myself clear. I feel like I'm repeating myself.

 

Not being able to see has an impact, right?

Not having a sense of balance also has an impact, right?

 

I've had bright lights flashed in my eyes before. They didn't cause me to fall down. I've also been in pitch darkness before. I didn't fall down then either. In both situations, I was still able to do stuff. It was a little more difficult because I couldn't see.

 

If an outfielder suddenly loses his sense of balance while trying to catch a fly ball, he's going to be hindered. He has to keep his eye on the ball, rather than on the ground. He may have to move backwards or lean backwards or sideways, etc. Without his sense of balance, he won't be able to tell when he's leaning too far to avoid falling over, since ha can't look at the ground, or his feet, at the same time as he looks at the ball.*

 

So if you disagree with Flash vs Balance, how would you build such a power? I don't think Suppress DEX or STUN does it. This is not a "Cause Dizziness/Vertigo" power, merely lose a sense temporarily.

 

*That gives me an idea of a sense that might compensate for a Flashed sense of balance: 360 degree vision. So he sees the ground and the ball at the same time.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

That was just an off-the-cuff suggestion of some possible effects, not that all of them should necessarily be applied and even those might be too harsh in retrospect. Isn't Flash vs. Sight a significant hose? 1/2 CV with ranged attacks, no seeing things, ro reading, etc.

Yes, it's limiting. It's also common enough that many characters and villains have powers and abilities that compensate, either partially or fully.

 

I'm not inventing a new mechanic. I'm using the existing mechanic for Flash and some other Sense-Affecting powers.

I disagree. To the extent that we're even discussing what flashing ones 'sense of balance' does, we're obviously inventing new mechanics. If it was simply using the standard flash mechanics, that part of the discussion would be over.

 

 

Another thought for blocked sense of balance:

-2 on Acrobatics and Breakfall rolls

Make a DEX Roll when making a ranged attack, failure=-2 OCV (waived if the target is stationary)

Similar DEX Roll required for certain fancy, acrobatic HtH attacks, like a handstand kick

Something similar for any situation where you have to lean without looking at the ground, such as to catch a thrown object or falling character.

 

I don't want a Flash vs. Balance to make someone dizzy, or to fall down, or to fall in some weird direction. Only the *sense* of balance is being blocked, which is not the same as actually losing one's balance. Though the former might contibute to the likelihood of the latter.

 

here, you prove my point.

[atlascott]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

Why not buy it as Flash with a Modifer saying that it doesnt affect sight, but instead caused vertigo. A Special Effect (and therefore having no real rules implications) could be that the negative to hit modifiers, instead of being based on loss of sight, is due to vertigo and nausea.

 

If you want it to stop someone from moving, buy it as a dex drain instead.

[Basil]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

{snip}

Perhaps the following could serve as a definition: Unless you could pay the points to make it a targeting sense, its not really a sense in game terms. I dont think you could have "Targeting Balance", (or targeting hunger, targeting need to pee, etc) so they are not senses, they are states of awareness.{snip}

Well, since Targeting Taste is not possible, and Smell can never be accurately Targeting, are they not senses? Or are you willing to "hand wave" the science? In that case, why not Targeting Balance?

 

After all, perhaps my alien-from-another-dimension character can tell what direction is down "way over yonder". Very helpful sense in an Escherverse.

Why cant smell be a targeting sense? You just have to pay the points to make it targeting. If I am playing Captain Grizzly, avenger of the wilderness, I think he might have smell so sensitive that I can target with it. Its just a matter of playing the points.

 

As for Taste, the problem is that taste is no range in its default state. You have to touch something with your tounge to taste it. Pay the points for range and you can taste from across the room. Weird FX probably, but you can do it. Pay some more points and your ranged taste is so sensitive you can target with it.

Sigh

That's what I get for being clever. Please, re-read what I said, assuming I'm being satirical.

 

Yep, that's it. My statement "since Targeting Taste is not possible, and Smell can never be accurately Targeting," while it is true in a "realistic" setting, is (as a general rule) completely arbitrary.

 

So is saying you can't pay for Targeting for Balance, etc. There is nothing in the rules, *nor in an unfettered imagination* that forces non-Targetability on Balance. If you don't want Targeting Balance, fine. But please stop assuming your preferences have to limit my imagination.

 

Now' date=' with balance, the issue is that it doesn't give you any information OUTSIDE of your own body.[/quote']

God, can people please stop saying this? It's utterly WRONG. In fact, it doesn't give me any information about what's inside my body, ONLY what's outside it.

 

It just affects you' date=' it does not sense other objects, even if you are touching them.[/quote']

Wrong. It senses any significantly large mass. With Discriminatory (or, arguably, with sufficient plusses to PER), it can sense irregularities in the gravity field (MasCons). As well, in a Science Fiction setting it may sense artificial gravity generators (if there are such)

 

As I said in my post' date=' its an awareness, but not a sense. It doesn't tell you where a foe is.[/quote']

If my foe is microscopic, Normal Sight won't tell me where he is; that doesn't mean Normal Sight isn't a sense. On the flip side, a Sense of Balance with Discriminatory, or even a sufficient number of plusses to PER could tell you where your foe is. Indeed, this is the only reasonable explanation for Spatial Awareness I've ever encountered (from a semi-realistic/preserve verisimilatude point-of-view)---well, that or a highly sensitive Magnetic Sense.

Perhaps it would be clearer to you if you considered humans to have, innately, major-league minuses on Balance PER Rolls. Thus, we get only the crudest information, and are capable of sensing only largish masses. More sensitive creatures, and machines, can sense more clearly; some can even use it to locate (potential) foes.

 

{snip}By flashing balance you want to impose signigicant combat penalties without any recorse for the target character.

That is an unwarrented assumption.

 

As for your alien with the ability to sense which way is "down" at a distance' date=' thats a detect with range, defined as "detect spacial alignment". It would be nearly useless on a standard earth, but in a dimension jumping campagin perhaps it would be necessary.[/quote']

You can define it that way if you want. However, I can define Senses as Detects for all the "Big Five" senses. That doesn't mean it's the best way to do things.

[atlascott]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

Actually, that's two different jobs.

 

Job one is to decide what the effect of not having the sense is.

Job two is to decide if the sense should be allowed to be affected by Sense-Affecting powers.

If not, job three is to decide how to model the effects you got from job one.

 

 

I have to disagree. I think you are making this needlessly complicated, though I appreciate your detailed and interesting posts on the topic. We can argue academically what senses innner-ear sensation provides us. If that is what you are interested in doing, take a class at the local university. But for game terms, what do you want the power to do? If you really dont care WHAT combat or game effect it has, you can just call it a power effect of any other power and define it as "inner ear equilibrium disruption." Nausea or whatever effect you want to define that has no effect on anything is a free power effect.

 

If you DO want it to have some impact on the game, then it is up to YOU to decide what game effect you want it to have. Another person modeling the exact same effect may choose a different route, a different power to emulate an effect on inner ear equilibrium. Neither route is wrong or right, assuming it complies with the rules.

 

The "sense" of balance does not provide you information about the outside world in a useful cognitive sense, like sight or hearing does, for example. It merely allows us to keep our balance. So IMO, HERO does not need to imclude 'sense of balance' as a sense. It is a sense in a sense but not in the sense you suggest.

 

You could build an entire hero whose ONLY powers derives from disrupting inner ear equilibrium. Or you could build one for whom it is a minor power effect. Neither is right or wrong or more correct. That is a strength of the system.

[The Hyborian]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

Not being able to see has an impact, right?

Not having a sense of balance also has an impact, right?

 

 

A subtle point is being missed here. Actually, not being able to see has NO GAME MECHANIC IMPACT on combat, unless sight is your only targeting sense. If my character has passive sonar as a targeting sense, and you flash my sight, I am still at full combat value. You have to flash both sight and passive sonar, THUS REMOVING ALL MY TARGETING SENSES, to give me CV penalties. Flashing "balance" would not give me a penalty in combat, because I was not using "balance" to target you in the first place. All flash does IN MECHANICAL TERMS is temporarily prevent a character from using a sense to target.

 

I think buying this kind of attack as a flash is a way to get a drain or transform around a target's power defense. Who is going to by flash defense for their "balance" when they build a character? No one. Basically Its a NND that costs no points, and that is unfair and unbalanced. That doesn't mean that you cant have balancing affecting powers, but I would see it as a drain, or perhaps a transform.

[The Hyborian]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

[So is saying you can't pay for Targeting for Balance, etc. There is nothing in the rules, *nor in an unfettered imagination* that forces non-Targetability on Balance. If you don't want Targeting Balance, fine. But please stop assuming your preferences have to limit my imagination.

Well, you could buy some kind of detect, define it being related to balance, put it in the unusual sense group, and then buy targeting for it. I still do not see how my ability to walk on a balance beam would tell me where anyone else in the room is. I would suggest that you cant just pay the points for targeting on balance without buying it as a detect first.

 

God, can people please stop saying this? It's utterly WRONG. In fact, it doesn't give me any information about what's inside my body, ONLY what's outside it.

 

Explain to me how your sense of balance lets you tell where your enemy in combat is and I will stop saying it. I do not see how balance gives you any information other than about your body and its orientation in space. If you put on a blindfold and use your blance you get ZERO information about MY body's orientation in space, or which side your about to be attacked from.

 

 

 

OK, if your are being attacked by a planet sized object, I would allow you to use your balance as a targeting sense. Still doesn't do squat about that ninja sneaking up on you.

 

 

If my foe is microscopic, Normal Sight won't tell me where he is; that doesn't mean Normal Sight isn't a sense. On the flip side, a Sense of Balance with Discriminatory, or even a sufficient number of plusses to PER could tell you where your foe is. Indeed, this is the only reasonable explanation for Spatial Awareness I've ever encountered (from a semi-realistic/preserve verisimilatude point-of-view)---well, that or a highly sensitive Magnetic Sense.

Perhaps it would be clearer to you if you considered humans to have, innately, major-league minuses on Balance PER Rolls. Thus, we get only the crudest information, and are capable of sensing only largish masses. More sensitive creatures, and machines, can sense more clearly; some can even use it to locate (potential) foes.

 

Ok, I see where you are going with this, but what you are talking about here is a superpower, a detect defined as the ability to sense objects by registering the minor changes in gravity the generate. Well and good,thats a perfectly fine special effect for a detect. BUT, its not something most people could do. And if my character does not have that power, I think its its unfair for you to get a combat advantage by flashing my balance. As I have said in a couple of other posts, the combat effect from flash comes from using flash to take away a targeting sense. If I have another targeting sense, I might have a slight disadvantage related to the sense loss, like not being able to tell colors if my sight has been flashed, but my CVs stay the same. There is not MECHANICAL effect from the flash as long as I have a targeting sense up and running.

 

Now, by imposing penalties from a balance flash you have turned flash into a drain of sort, one that will almost never encounter a target with a defense against it. Who has ever built a character with a flash defense for their balance? People have talked about things like 1/2DCV and no concentation powers for the effect to this. That hugely unbalancing to give that effect to a flash power, one that one one will have defences to, and in one that will take effect even if the target has another targeting sense. As I have said before, I dont object to the concept of a balance affecting power, I object to the mechanical way it is being imposed. This is either a drain or a major transform.

 

 

That is an unwarrented assumption.

 

Well, if you want a flash that doesn't impose combat penalties, then I guess you can have as much as you would like. I would suggest 11d6. My assumption was that you would like the flash to do something to the target.

 

 

Actually, its the only way to do it, at least that I can think of. If you want a power that can give you information over range about things a typical person can not sesne, thats pretty much a ranged detect. What other rule would you purchase it under? You can call it whatever you want in terms of Fx, But I can not think of another standard rule that would let you sense spacial orientation over range.

[The Hyborian]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

HUMM, major formating boo-boo in above post. Sorry if its hard to read. Im a rules lawyer, not a computer geek.

 

The Hyborian

[Basil]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

HUMM, major formating boo-boo in above post. Sorry if its hard to read. Im a rules lawyer, not a computer geek.

 

The Hyborian

You need to put a slash after the first "[" and before the "quote]" to end a quotation block. Also, you said "

"

[Basil]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

So is saying you can't pay for Targeting for Balance' date=' etc.[/u'] There is nothing in the rules, *nor in an unfettered imagination* that forces non-Targetability on Balance. If you don't want Targeting Balance, fine. But please stop assuming your preferences have to limit my imagination.

Well, you could buy some kind of detect, define it being related to balance, put it in the unusual sense group, and then buy targeting for it. I still do not see how my ability to walk on a balance beam would tell me where anyone else in the room is.

Because you haven't bought Targeting for your Balance. My character has, so he can tell where others are.

God' date=' can people [b']please[/b] stop saying this? It's utterly WRONG. In fact, it doesn't give me any information about what's inside my body, ONLY what's outside it.

Explain to me how your sense of balance lets you tell where your enemy in combat is and I will stop saying it.

Because I bought Targeting for my character's Balance.

I do not see how balance gives you any information other than about your body and its orientation in space. If you put on a blindfold and use your blance you get ZERO information about MY body's orientation in space' date=' or which side your about to be attacked from.[/quote']That's because humans don't have Targeting for the Sense of Balance.

Wrong. It senses any significantly large mass. With Discriminatory (or' date=' arguably, with sufficient plusses to PER), it can sense irregularities in the gravity field (MasCons). As well, in a Science Fiction setting it may sense artificial gravity generators (if there are such)[/quote']

OK, if your are being attacked by a planet sized object, I would allow you to use your balance as a targeting sense. Still doesn't do squat about that ninja sneaking up on you.

And what about when my character has Targeting on his Sense of Balance? Then he can detect the ninja.

If my foe is microscopic' date=' Normal Sight won't tell me where he is; that doesn't mean Normal Sight isn't a sense. On the flip side, a Sense of Balance with Discriminatory, or even a sufficient number of plusses to PER [u']could tell you where your foe is. Indeed, this is the only reasonable explanation for Spatial Awareness I've ever encountered (from a semi-realistic/preserve verisimilatude point-of-view)---well, that or a highly sensitive Magnetic Sense.

Perhaps it would be clearer to you if you considered humans to have, innately, major-league minuses on Balance PER Rolls. Thus, we get only the crudest information, and are capable of sensing only largish masses. More sensitive creatures, and machines, can sense more clearly; some can even use it to locate (potential) foes.

Ok, I see where you are going with this,

No, clearly you don't. I am showing that all your objections to Balance as a Sense that are based on the lack of fine discrimination, are nonsensical objections since the same objection can be leveled against Taste, Touch---hell, all the non-Targeting (in humans) senses, to some degree.

but what you are talking about here is a superpower' date=' a detect defined as the ability to sense objects by registering the minor changes in gravity the generate. Well and good,thats a perfectly fine special effect for a detect. BUT, its not something most people could do.[/quote']

Most people can't Taste at a distance. Does that mean Taste isn't a sense? Does it mean I have to cobble together a Detect if my character can taste at a distance?

If you answer "no" to those two questions, then your only "defense" against calling Balance a sense is "It's not in the book".

And if my character does not have that power' date=' I think its its unfair for you to get a combat advantage by flashing my balance.[/quote']

Which power? Targeting Balance? Why should having that defend against a Flash vs. Balance?

Or do you mean Flash Defense for Balance? If your character doesn't have Flash Defense for Hearing, how is my having a Flash vs. Hearing "unfair"?

As I have said in a couple of other posts, the combat effect from flash comes from using flash to take away a targeting sense. If I have another targeting sense, I might have a slight disadvantage related to the sense loss, like not being able to tell colors if my sight has been flashed, but my CVs stay the same. There is not MECHANICAL effect from the flash as long as I have a targeting sense up and running.

 

Now, by imposing penalties from a balance flash you have turned flash into a drain of sort, one that will almost never encounter a target with a defense against it. Who has ever built a character with a flash defense for their balance? People have talked about things like 1/2DCV and no concentation powers for the effect to this. That hugely unbalancing to give that effect to a flash power, one that one one will have defences to, and in one that will take effect even if the target has another targeting sense. As I have said before, I dont object to the concept of a balance affecting power, I object to the mechanical way it is being imposed. This is either a drain or a major transform.

I can only repeat what I said before:

That is an unwarrented assumption.

More accurately, it is a series of unwarrented assumptions. I.e., it is a Straw Man. Have fun knocking it down, but you fool no-one into thinking you've supported your point.

Well' date=' if you want a flash that doesn't impose combat penalties, then I guess you can have as much as you would like. I would suggest 11d6. My assumption was that you would like the flash to do something to the target.[/quote']

Yes, I do. Something comparable to the effects of a Flash vs. Hearing, or Sight. Minuses to DCV, OCV, etc.

IOW, a Flash to one Sense (Balance) is commeasurable with a Flash to another Sense (say, Hearing). Simple. What is so hard to understand about that?

Actually' date=' its the only way to do it, at least that I can think of. If you want a power that can give you information over range about things a typical person can not sesne,[/quote']

What about "that way feels down" can a typical person not sense? And don't say "which way is down over there", because that's what the Targeting is for.

thats pretty much a ranged detect. What other rule would you purchase it under? You can call it whatever you want in terms of Fx' date=' But I can not think of another standard rule that would let you sense spacial orientation over range.[/quote']

#1) The lack of a "standard rule" is the point. The Sense Groups as currently written are lacking a clearly needed Sense. So, let's add it. Proclaiming "it doesn't exist, therefore it cannot exist" is "argument from authority", which is garbage.

#2) I'm afraid we've hit an impass. It seems to me you are assuming Balance can never be a sense, and your "proofs" are merely showing that your POV is logically consistant. Which is fine in its way, but no reason to accept your prefences as requirements. IOW, I don't think there's any point to my responding further to your posts on this subject. You can keep Begging the Question; I'll limit my responses to those less illogical and bullheaded.

[atlascott]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

Basil, buddy.

 

Why can't I buy sense of strength as a targeting sense? Then my sense of strength would let me target enemies? Or why not buy sense of honor as a targeting sense?

 

Same reasons. Because a sense of balance and a sense of honor are not senses in the same way as sight smell or touch are. A "sense" of balance allows you to stand and balance yourself. A "sense" of honor means you play by the rules. But neither provide cognitive information about the outside world. You need a sense of sight to tell up from down--a "sense" of balance just allows you to stand up!

 

Take it another way--we see because light enters our eyes, things reflect light differently, and our brain interprets the differences as shapes and movement. WE hear because sound molecules bounce off one another and vibrate a seneitive peice of skin in our ear which our brain interprets as sound. Through what mechanism does one sense anything other than in-balance/out-of-balance with one's sense of balance? By what means would any discrimination beyond that occur?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

I know that. That's all I'm asking for. Maybe I'm not making myself clear. I feel like I'm repeating myself.

 

Not being able to see has an impact, right?

Not having a sense of balance also has an impact, right?

 

I've had bright lights flashed in my eyes before. They didn't cause me to fall down. I've also been in pitch darkness before. I didn't fall down then either. In both situations, I was still able to do stuff. It was a little more difficult because I couldn't see.

 

If an outfielder suddenly loses his sense of balance while trying to catch a fly ball, he's going to be hindered. He has to keep his eye on the ball, rather than on the ground. He may have to move backwards or lean backwards or sideways, etc. Without his sense of balance, he won't be able to tell when he's leaning too far to avoid falling over, since ha can't look at the ground, or his feet, at the same time as he looks at the ball.*

 

So if you disagree with Flash vs Balance, how would you build such a power? I don't think Suppress DEX or STUN does it. This is not a "Cause Dizziness/Vertigo" power, merely lose a sense temporarily.

 

*That gives me an idea of a sense that might compensate for a Flashed sense of balance: 360 degree vision. So he sees the ground and the ball at the same time.

 

Hi, Phil. Tetchy thread, eh?

 

I understand what you are saying about operating in the dark without falling over, but I'm willing to bet you either stood still or moved very slowly, i.e. went non-combat. If you were trying to dodge and duck and maybe even attack someone then you'd probably fall over pretty quickly. Same with a loss of sense of balance. If you stand perfectly still or move very carefully you can scrub around it.

 

I think that Hero lacks some basic powers at the moment: suffocation being a point discussed recently - how do you do that? USPD says use change environment, and that is probably how I would do a vertigo-type too - it is the only power in the book that allows you to make an opponent make a roll or fall down, so it seems appropriate for a vertigo-type power too. You can also use it to impose penalties to combat and skill rolls.

 

I'm using 'vertigo-type' here in a non technical sense: just to hang a label on the effect of losing your sense of balance.

 

If you wanted to you could link it to a flash effect and define it as only working as long as the flash 'damage' is in effect, or make it uncontrolled and function for (say) 6 segments with a limitation that an appropriate flash defence prevents the power working or reduces duration.

[Silbeg]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

I figure This would mess any one up pretty bad as any one who has had an iner ear infection would attest.

 

Would this be in Touch Group, Hearing Group, or Unique Group?

What would be the effects?

 

I figure this would be good for Gravtational, Subsonics, bioelectrical, or mental powers.

Ok, I admit I am skipping most of the responses, but I figured I would just chime in, anyways.

 

I created a power like this very recently for a player who described his ability of "Sumo Yell" as attack that causes deafness and loss of balance...

 

22 Sumo Yell: (Total: 44 Active Cost, 22 Real Cost)
 Hearing Group Flash 8d6 (24 Active Points); No Range (-1/2),
Requires A Brick Tricks Roll (-1/2) (Real Cost: 12)
 plus Drain DEX 2d6 (20 Active Points);
Linked (Compound Power; Lesser Power can only be used when
character uses greater Power at full value; -3/4),
Limited Power Only Affects Target if Flash Affects Target (-1/4)
(Real Cost: 10)

 

Since a person's balance is affected by the inner ear, this seemed appropriate.