Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

[Dust Raven]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

If that's how you would interpret the effects of a Flash pain' date=' then I can certainly understand why you wouldn't allow it. However, I wouldn't interpret it that way, and therefore I might still allow it.[/quote']

 

Once again, we are defining things differently. It's obvious what these "senses" are and what they do, but it's also obvious what we all have different ideas of what the game mechanics of them are. That alone is enough arguement against incorperating them into the rules as Senses.

 

Personally, I can't see now one could still take damage from pain if they can't feel it in the first place. It's how pain works. Try some anesthic. Not the big stuff that knocks you out, but the local stuff, like what dentists use or whats use for minor surgery. Shoot up your foot with enough of that stuff and you could happily hack it right off and not feel a thing. Do it right so you don't lose much blood while tying it all off and you'll be just fine (though footless). You aren't any closer to being unconscious either, which means no STUN loss, despite the fact that you just took a tremendous amount of damage.

 

But I digress, we're beating to death...ahem... discussing... the sense of balance.

 

I've about run out of agruements about balance and kinesthetics, but I'll stand by the ones I've made. What I do know is that theres no convincing anyone who things the effects of losing such senses are different from what I think they are, and vice versa.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

Hi. This one's rattling on isn't it?

 

Apologies if this point has already been made, but...

 

If you can flash an internal sense, whatabout the feed back nerves that regulate your heartbeat and breathing? I can flash them and for a real bargain price I can give you a heart attack.

 

This seems (to me) directly analogous to flashing the sense of balance: it is switching off an internal monitoring system, which doesn't appear to me to be what the power is about.

 

Now 'down' is a quality of the outside world, you might say, that your inner ear detects, so it is not an internal sense at all.

 

I'd say it is: it is a way of regulating your orientation, an internal feedback system that performs a function directly related to the maintenance of your body.

 

To take a perhaps more pertinent example: if I flash your abilty to sense temperature I would say that prevents you sensing any external heat source, but not your own internal temperature, otherwise I could cause someone to overheat because they do not sweat and pant as their body temperature increases, and soon they will be unconscious from heat stroke.

 

I don't think that is what the power is supposed to do. We need to ask what effect we are trying to accomplish. I'd say anything fooling 'internal' senses should probably be built with a variation of mental illusions, a power that can kill or cause a wide variety of other effects, if used in sufficient quantity.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

Common sense and logic have little to do with the rules.

If I believed that, I wouldn't be playing HERO. I don't understand why anyone would play a game (especially an RPG) that doesn't comply with logic and common sense.

 

When you bring those into play, you are bringing along preconceptions of certan SFX which will not apply in every situation.

I still don't understand what you think is so important about "not applying in every situation." Must something apply in every situation in order to be allowed in the rules? If something applies in some situations, why not allow it in those situations? The rules should not forbid me to build something I can conceive of with my imagination just because it doesn't apply in every situation. Just because Invisibility to Balance doesn't apply, doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed to take Flash vs Balance.

 

It's obvious what these "senses" are and what they do, but it's also obvious what we all have different ideas of what the game mechanics of them are. That alone is enough arguement against incorperating them into the rules as Senses.

This seems like a complete non-sequitur to me. We have different ideas of what the game mechanics of lightening or guns or intelligence or time travel or elves or psychic powers are. Does that mean we shouldn't allow any of those things in the rules?

 

Personally, I can't see now one could still take damage from pain if they can't feel it in the first place. It's how pain works.

From a balance (no pun intended) point of view, Flash vs Pain shouldn't have that effect because that isn't what Flash does. If you want to prevent damage, use a Defensive Power. Flash simply stops the target from receiving information from one or more senses temporarily. How it actually does that is a matter of SFX. If you or I can't imagine the specific SFX for a particular rule mechanic, that doesn't mean someone else can't and shouldn't be allowed to use it if he does. By the same token, I can't think of any realistic SFX that could justify a Flash vs Taste with Does Knockback, even though it's perfectly legal by the rules.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

If you can flash an internal sense' date=' whatabout the feed back nerves that regulate your heartbeat and breathing?[/quote']

Simple: Those aren't senses. Flash blocks sensory information, not bodily function. It isn't the reception of information that keeps your heart beating or your lungs breathing.

 

This seems (to me) directly analogous to flashing the sense of balance: it is switching off an internal monitoring system, which doesn't appear to me to be what the power is about.

One is about switching off information that you are consciously aware of and the other is about stopping an autonomic function. I don't see the similarity at all.

 

Now 'down' is a quality of the outside world, you might say, that your inner ear detects, so it is not an internal sense at all.

I'd say it is: it is a way of regulating your orientation, an internal feedback system that performs a function directly related to the maintenance of your body.

You might also say that ALL senses are "internal" and help you perform maintainance functions, like eating, breathing, avoiding danger, and dealing with injury and illness. If you didn't feel pain (sense of touch), you'd have a harder time dealing with injuries. A minor cut could go untreated and become infected. This is what happens in cases of leprosy. All our senses are for helping our physical survival, including balance and kinesthesia as much as sight, hearing, touch, taste, and smell.

 

To take a perhaps more pertinent example: if I flash your abilty to sense temperature I would say that prevents you sensing any external heat source, but not your own internal temperature, otherwise I could cause someone to overheat because they do not sweat and pant as their body temperature increases, and soon they will be unconscious from heat stroke.

Why wouldn't they sweat? Flash only stops conscious sensory information. You don't make a conscious decision to sweat. Flash vs Sight doesn't stop you from blinking to keep your eyes moist. Flash vs Smell doesn't stop you from breathing. Flash vs Taste doesn't stop you from salivating or digesting. And Flash vs temperature doesn't stop you from sweating. And BTW, Flash vs temperature is already in the rules because it's part of the Touch sense.

 

I don't think that is what the power is supposed to do.... I'd say anything fooling 'internal' senses should probably be built with a variation of mental illusions, a power that can kill ...

Right! A power that can kill or alter a persons bodily functions should not be built with Flash, or any other Sense Affecting Power. However, powers that stop or alter the reception of sensory information should be build with Flash or other Sense Affecting Powers.

 

(Of course, you can always die as an indirect result of losing a sense: Blinded and didn't see the edge of the cliff, Deafened and didn't hear the train coming, De-tasted and couldn't tell the food was poisoned, etc.)

[atlascott]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

"It isn't the reception of information that keeps your heart beating or your lungs breathing."

 

BZZZT. Wrong, thats what nerve impulses (information) from the medulla does.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

If I believed that, I wouldn't be playing HERO. I don't understand why anyone would play a game (especially an RPG) that doesn't comply with logic and common sense.

 

 

I still don't understand what you think is so important about "not applying in every situation." Must something apply in every situation in order to be allowed in the rules? If something applies in some situations, why not allow it in those situations? The rules should not forbid me to build something I can conceive of with my imagination just because it doesn't apply in every situation. Just because Invisibility to Balance doesn't apply, doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed to take Flash vs Balance.

 

 

This seems like a complete non-sequitur to me. We have different ideas of what the game mechanics of lightening or guns or intelligence or time travel or elves or psychic powers are. Does that mean we shouldn't allow any of those things in the rules?

You prove my point again. There are no rules for lightning or guns or time travel in Hero. You have to use the toolkit to model them. Same thing with the sense of balance. You can do it, nothing is stopping you. But that doesn't mean it needs to be directly incorperated into the rules where everybody has to use it the same way.

 

 

From a balance (no pun intended) point of view, Flash vs Pain shouldn't have that effect because that isn't what Flash does. If you want to prevent damage, use a Defensive Power. Flash simply stops the target from receiving information from one or more senses temporarily. How it actually does that is a matter of SFX. If you or I can't imagine the specific SFX for a particular rule mechanic, that doesn't mean someone else can't and shouldn't be allowed to use it if he does. By the same token, I can't think of any realistic SFX that could justify a Flash vs Taste with Does Knockback, even though it's perfectly legal by the rules.

 

Only that's what a Flash vs Pain would do. I have the same arguement against a Flash vs Balance. If you want to take away someone's sense of balance, use a Power that simulates the effects of doing just that.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

You prove my point again. There are no rules for lightning or guns or time travel in Hero. You have to use the toolkit to model them. Same thing with the sense of balance. You can do it, nothing is stopping you. But that doesn't mean it needs to be directly incorperated into the rules where everybody has to use it the same way.

 

Only that's what a Flash vs Pain would do. I have the same arguement against a Flash vs Balance. If you want to take away someone's sense of balance, use a Power that simulates the effects of doing just that.

I am getting very frustrated with this discussion. Your above post suggests to me that you haven't understood anything I've said. It's as if we're speaking two different languages.

 

I think you are confusing (your interpretation of) the results of a particular real or imaginable "power" with the game effects of a HERO System Power construct. Flash vs pain would not render someone immune to STUN Damage because that is beyond the scope of what a Flash does according to the rules. Likewise Flash vs sense of balance does not make someone dizzy or nauseated. To add that capability to the HERO System Power "Flash" is to make it more powerful than its point cost warrants.

 

A Flash vs Hearing is usually defined as a loud sound in the ears. A real world loud sound in the ears can cause pain and distraction from tasks that have nothing to do with hearing or deafness. This does not mean that the HERO Power Flash should do STUN damage to represent the real world pain, or that it should stop the use of Powers with Concentration or prevent other actions to represent the real world noise distraction. A Flash blocks sensory awareness. That's all.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

I am getting very frustrated with this discussion. Your above post suggests to me that you haven't understood anything I've said. It's as if we're speaking two different languages.

I don't think so, but maybe we are just missing each others points.

 

I think you are confusing (your interpretation of) the results of a particular real or imaginable "power" with the game effects of a HERO System Power construct. Flash vs pain would not render someone immune to STUN Damage because that is beyond the scope of what a Flash does according to the rules. Likewise Flash vs sense of balance does not make someone dizzy or nauseated. To add that capability to the HERO System Power "Flash" is to make it more powerful than its point cost warrants.

I'm not confusing anything. I'm reasoning from effects. Personally, I can't see how to remove someones sense of pain without making them immune to some STUN damage, or how to remove someone's sense of balance without making them dizzy when they move. Hence, Flash can't be the correct construct for removing them and so they simply aren't Senses as defined by the Hero System rules.

 

If there is anything I'm confusing there, it's how you have rationalized a ruling and a Power that doesn't actually do anything.

 

A Flash vs Hearing is usually defined as a loud sound in the ears. A real world loud sound in the ears can cause pain and distraction from tasks that have nothing to do with hearing or deafness. This does not mean that the HERO Power Flash should do STUN damage to represent the real world pain, or that it should stop the use of Powers with Concentration or prevent other actions to represent the real world noise distraction. A Flash blocks sensory awareness. That's all.

Agreed. Though depending on the SFX of the Flash, it might have to ruin a character's Concentration.

 

A Flash that caused pain would have to have another attack Linked to it to simulate the damage from pain, or of the pain is so insignificant as to not cause STUN damage, it's just part of the SFX.

 

But with blocking the sense of pain or the sense of balance....those things don't do what Senses in the hero system do, and shouldn't be treated the same.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

Personally' date=' I can't see how to remove someones sense of pain without making them immune to some STUN damage, or how to remove someone's sense of balance without making them dizzy when they move.[/quote']

Are you talking about the real world or the HERO system? In the real world, you are probably right: if you remove someone's ability to feel pain they also become immune to being stunned or incapacitated by what in the HERO System is represented by STUN damage. In the HERO System however, these two things are easily separated because they are two different parts of the system: a Sense and a damagable Characteristic. How do you do this? Simple. You say, "You don't feel any pain from the hit you just took. Lose 20 STUN which you'll get back with normal recoveries." The game action takes place in our imaginations, where these two things - Senses and STUN - do not have to be inextricably linked.

 

Yes, it's an odd thing to have happen, even in an imaginary story (an RPG). You may have a hard time thinking of a special effect to justify it, but that shouldn't stop someone who does.

 

A Flash that caused pain would have to have another attack Linked to it to simulate the damage from pain, or of the pain is so insignificant as to not cause STUN damage, it's just part of the SFX.

Right! And a Flash without another attack linked to it CAN'T cause STUN Damage or any other effect besides temporarily blocking the sense of hearing. Because that's all Flash can do.

 

And If I buy a Flash vs pain or balance without linking any additional powers the only thing that happens is those particular senses are temporarily blocked. No dizziness, no STUN immunity. That may not be as much as you think ought to happen based on real world effects that you can think of, but that's all the rules allow to happen. It may not be much, but it is doing something.

 

Questions:

1. Would you allow a player in your game to buy Flash vs Touch without buying any additional Linked Powers?

2. Is pain part of the Touch sense?

3. Would that Flash vs Touch grant immunity to STUN damage to the target?

4. Would you grant that power other effects/results besides blocking awareness of tactile information? If so, what would those effects/results be?

 

Note that Touch is explicitly defined in the rules as a Sense, and that Flash vs. Touch is perfectly legal.

 

My answers to the above questions, in case I haven't made myself clear are:

1. Yes.

2. Yes.

3. No.

4. No.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

My answers would be

 

1. Yes

2. No

3. No

4. No

 

I'm not sure, but I think we've gotten to a point where we don't agree with what the arguement is about. It would explain our miscommunication at least. [shrug]

 

My point here is that you shouldn't have a Power that doesn't do anything. If you remove someone's pain, there should be an effect. Specifically an effect that messes with the mechanics of how the character interacts with other characters and the world around him. If a Flash versus pain or balance wouldn't accomplish this, it's pointless and there is no reason it whould be there, official or otherwise.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

But there is an effect: he can't feel pain. How is that not an effect? He could be hurt and not know it. He could hurt himself and not know it. That's significant.

 

If you agree that a Flash vs Touch shouldn't have any effects besides blocking awareness of sensory information (No on question 4), then why do you insist that a Flash vs Pain or Balance should have some additional effect?

[Basil]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

You are an infantile monkey with a speech impediment if you do not agree.

This sets off my "Detect Troll" sense.

Oh, he did that to mine quite some time back.

 

I finally tossed him into my Ignore List when he redefined "Straw Man Argument" to be the same as "Red Herring." A Straw Man Argument is where one makes a statement or serious of statements and falsely claims it/they are the same as, a rewording of, or a example based on, one's opponent's statement(s), and then disproves the statements one made rather than one's opponent's. As far as I can see, atlascott has made no post in this thread that is not riddled with, or composed solely of, Straw Men.

 

For that and other reasons, I am bowing out of this discussion. I think nothing more can be served by continuing; I have, IMO, made a good case for including Balance as a Sense, and for considering doing so for Kinesthesia. I have seen some posts raising interesting points in contradiction, but far fewer than the number of posts showing malice and blind worship of "The Rules As They Are Written."

[atlascott]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

AHHHH!!! He used humor!!! He doesnt agree with my untenable position! I will ignore his civil posts and apology!!! He must be a TROLL!!!! I'm ignoring him! Go Away, Bad Troll!!! Go Away! Im going to Flash my sense of humor, flash my sense context, and Flash my sense of memory, so I can get away from this Eville Troll!!!!!

[Dust Raven]

Re: Flash: Inner ear/ Sense of Gravity/ Sense of Balence

 

But there is an effect: he can't feel pain. How is that not an effect? He could be hurt and not know it. He could hurt himself and not know it. That's significant.

Yes, significent. Just like a Drain or Suppress is significent. Just because it's significent doesn't mean it should be considered a sense. What you are describing, using the Sense rules, would have no game effect. The character/player wouldn't feel the pain, but would still know he's taking damage, how much and what those effects are. To me that's not worthy of assigning points to it.

 

If you agree that a Flash vs Touch shouldn't have any effects besides blocking awareness of sensory information (No on question 4), then why do you insist that a Flash vs Pain or Balance should have some additional effect?

Because it would. I know that sounds insufficient, but it really isn't. To me it's like asking why gravity makes things fall down. It just does and that's the way the world works. Now, as far as game mechanics go, there has to be a game mechanic result; something tangable to the system. Your description of a Flash versus pain or balance has none, and so isn't really a Power but a colorful description with no mechanics that can be attached to it. Sure, you could buy it, if the GM allowed it, but it would be worthless.