Intelligent multipowers

[Alverant]

Re: Intelligent multipowers

 

I don't have that book either. But in any case the Fire Truck in Villainy Unbound is a better example. The water is a multipower with 2 slots, a Dispell vs all Fire Powers and an EB with double KB.

 

Now lets say the fireman is trying to extinguish a fire imp running around a crowd. So initially the hose is using the dispell slot. But he misses and hits a bystander. According to a strict interpertation of the rules since the first slot is used nothing should happen except the guy's cigar is put out. But logically the guy should be soaked and go flying back a few hexes as if hit by the second slot.

 

Or if you want a more likely example, an illusionist has disguised a weakened support as being part of the blaze. The fireman blasts the "fire" with dispell. What should happen?

 

I will also point out that there was no extra Advantage to the multipower for having this auto-switch. I'd say it should be allowed provided it doesn't become abusive.

 

But this does raise the question of what happens if the target fulfills both requirements, like Feur? Would he be subject to both effects (dispell AND EB) or half and half or what?

 

I had my own idea for a logical intelligent multipower. A launched projectile intended to disrupt the first "para-real" thing it encounters. The first slot would be an RKA with Affects Desolid and Only Affects Desolid, the second would Dispell Visual Images (effect dependent) because an illusion would also count as "para-real", then because the projectile is heavy and moving fast, a physical EB for when it finally hits something.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Intelligent multipowers

 

Howabout instead of an "intelligent multipower", a heavily-limited VPP? No choice of how powers change, effect determined by target, and write up a bunch of examples, and the GM decides what happens based on the target.

[Alverant]

Re: Intelligent multipowers

 

Howabout instead of an "intelligent multipower"' date=' a heavily-limited VPP? No choice of how powers change, effect determined by target, and write up a bunch of examples, and the GM decides what happens based on the target.[/quote']

 

Even heavily limited, it would still be expensive. You pay for the base pool points with no way to reduce the cost. All the limitations would affect would be the control cost which must already be cosmic. You'll need a -2 just to get the control cost back down to its "original" value which is as expensive as a multipower with 5 fixed slots.

 

Why not put a -0 No Choice on Which Slot Used limtation on it? Each slot can only be effective against a given target and there can be no unreasonable overlap.

[tesuji]

Re: Intelligent multipowers

 

I don't have that book either. But in any case the Fire Truck in Villainy Unbound is a better example. The water is a multipower with 2 slots, a Dispell vs all Fire Powers and an EB with double KB.

 

Now lets say the fireman is trying to extinguish a fire imp running around a crowd. So initially the hose is using the dispell slot. But he misses and hits a bystander. According to a strict interpertation of the rules since the first slot is used nothing should happen except the guy's cigar is put out. But logically the guy should be soaked and go flying back a few hexes as if hit by the second slot.

 

But see here is the rub... what if my supervillain COALBURNERMAN has a fiery damage shield (with its linked obscureing black smoke) is hit by the water hose?

 

Also, what if the fire i m putting out is a wooden shelf full of fragile glass figurines? Should i get a pritine disepl/suppress/drain or should the shelf and the figurines be pushed around by the water stream (take the knockback Eb)?

 

IF one assumes that we are talking about one power with two effects, then it seems very logical that i should have the fire doused AND be knocked back by the force of the hose, not either or.

 

Saving tons o' points as a multipower gives me one of the logical effects not both?

 

No, for FIREHOSEMAN, if i buy him with the two powers bought as a multipower, saving tons of points for either/or, then IMO what i have just DEFINED for my character is that he has two sprays each producing a different effect. One, say, is a tightly focused stream causing damage and knockback while the other is a wide spray designed to smother flames. (I am NOT saying that is how i would build this power, just that thats what the SFX of it as a multipower entails.)

 

Now, if i want to have one power with two effects, i should just buy an Eb with knockback (and IMO to reflect the water attack also buy reduced penetration) and buy a linked anti-fire-powers attack, such as a dispel or a suppress or a drain.

 

In that, more expensive build, if i shoot someone who has no fire powers, they get knocked. if i shoot someone with firepowers, they get knokced and flames reduced. if i shoot something that is on fire, the force of the stream might push things around and even break things while it puts out the fire.

 

So i see this as a great example of when you should NOT use the cheapo savings of the MP if your goal is to produce a "one power with two effects". These are clearly not exclusive effects, unlike say the "if he has mental defense... then a, else B" listed above.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Intelligent multipowers

 

But see here is the rub... what if my supervillain COALBURNERMAN has a fiery damage shield (with its linked obscureing black smoke) is hit by the water hose?

 

Also, what if the fire i m putting out is a wooden shelf full of fragile glass figurines? Should i get a pritine disepl/suppress/drain or should the shelf and the figurines be pushed around by the water stream (take the knockback Eb)?

 

IF one assumes that we are talking about one power with two effects, then it seems very logical that i should have the fire doused AND be knocked back by the force of the hose, not either or.

 

Saving tons o' points as a multipower gives me one of the logical effects not both?

 

No, for FIREHOSEMAN, if i buy him with the two powers bought as a multipower, saving tons of points for either/or, then IMO what i have just DEFINED for my character is that he has two sprays each producing a different effect. One, say, is a tightly focused stream causing damage and knockback while the other is a wide spray designed to smother flames. (I am NOT saying that is how i would build this power, just that thats what the SFX of it as a multipower entails.)

 

Now, if i want to have one power with two effects, i should just buy an Eb with knockback (and IMO to reflect the water attack also buy reduced penetration) and buy a linked anti-fire-powers attack, such as a dispel or a suppress or a drain.

 

In that, more expensive build, if i shoot someone who has no fire powers, they get knocked. if i shoot someone with firepowers, they get knokced and flames reduced. if i shoot something that is on fire, the force of the stream might push things around and even break things while it puts out the fire.

 

So i see this as a great example of when you should NOT use the cheapo savings of the MP if your goal is to produce a "one power with two effects". These are clearly not exclusive effects, unlike say the "if he has mental defense... then a, else B" listed above.

 

Have to say I agree with this, 100%. The firehose is the perfect example... it doesn't do either douse or knock around... it does BOTH at the same time. 3d6 EB with double knockback linked to a dispell fire.

 

Even the original freeze ray works this way... it is just expensive to do such if you require every possible effect of a power might have.

 

 

Now... I would not require players to do all this crunchy power building unless they wished to do so. For example...

 

Not every Energy Blast has a linked Continuous Energy KA to represent setting things on fire... even though a lot of different EBs could justify this.

 

The secondary effects of powers is all in the SFX. This is the stuff that is situational, and GM ruled. We are talking GM handwaving... or allowing SFX to have a significant game effect once in a while, even if the effect wasn't paid for.

 

WASN'T PAID FOR! HERESY!

 

So sorry... didn't mean to give folks heart attacks... I'm just saying that all this parsing doesn't have to happen. Allow SFX to determine secondary and tertiary effects... the GM gets to have them be both positive and negative. (Sometimes a fire starts when Electric Man didn't want it to... sometimes Snowgirl can put out a kitchen fire with her snow blast)

 

SFX are the Nar element of Hero... run with it a bit.

[tesuji]

Re: Intelligent multipowers

 

SFX are the Nar element of Hero... run with it a bit.

 

While i agree with the statement, it seems to me out of place here. The extra effects being disucessed and things like mental blast or MD drain depending on target, rise well above the level of SFX.

 

This is not about occasional sparking or putting out grease fires but about hosing/dispelling Johnny storm out of the air.

 

Now, as an alternative heresy theory, the issue might rather be that AT CHARACTER DESIGN the SFX firepowers guy might ought to be required, by Gm world view enforcement, to take a lim or disad to the extent that "loses spower when combustion inhibited" or something suitable so that it is a trait of the FIREPOWERS guy that his fire powers are affected by water.

 

Then, every water spouting guy doesn't have to buy dispel vs all firepowers at once as a tag on to his EB AND dispel vs acid powers for washing away/diluting acid and so on.

[Alverant]

Re: Intelligent multipowers

 

Well I used this example because it was from the book so it's "official" which is also why I asked the question "what happens to the burning man?" But to be devil's advocate (not the superteam), how often will this happen? If it's once-a-game, then pay the points, but if it's a once-in-a-blue-moon, like a power stunt, save the rules mongering and let it stand. Why spend the points for a rare event? I revise my position, the best situation is to buy both powers linked together if it will be used often.

 

But my own example of the "disruptor" stands, it really is different effects for different situations. I'd go with Supreme Serpent's suggestion but it's expensive and puts more weight on the GM.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Intelligent multipowers

 

Right! You can also handle some cases of this with Environmental Side Effects, such as with the firehose. The fireman is trying to put out the fire - Suppress Fire is the main idea and is the Power that is bought. He doesn't want to break the glass figurines, but that's a small price to pay relative to having the house burn down. Thus the KB is a Side Effect (Always occurs on whatever is hit, even something other than the intended target. In this case, the knockback damage is an undesirable added result and is therefore worth a SE Limitation.

 

There is also the "Real Weapon" limitation, which means that the weapon has realistic effects. I might allow this for a firehose, but not for a freeze ray.

 

I don't think there is a general way to handle all cases of "different effects depending on what gets hit." In some cases it will be a limitation, in others, and advantage, in yet others, it would be an extreme advantage, such as RKA on Automatons, Mind Control on non-mentalist humans, Drain EGO on Mentalists, automatically choosing.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Intelligent multipowers

 

SFX are the Nar element of Hero... run with it a bit.

What's a "Nar element"? Is it related to Nar-Cola?

[RDU Neil]

Re: Intelligent multipowers

 

What's a "Nar element"? Is it related to Nar-Cola?

 

Hey! There's an idea.

 

Nar-Cola... for those who want Theme with their Caffeine!

 

or how about...

 

Sim-Cola... It is what it is.

 

and finally...

 

Gamist Cola... For those who just have to win!

 

 

I think we've got something here!

[RDU Neil]

Re: Intelligent multipowers

 

Oh... and seriously... Nar... as in Narrativist.

 

As opposed to Simulationist or Gamist.

 

Three styles/preferences of RPG experience that also (should) affect game design.

 

All three happen in every RPG experience... but people tend to prefer one over the others as "what they are want out of a game."

 

The classic Role Players vs. Rule Players issue is a simplistic version of Narrativist vs. Gamist.

 

Narrativists tend to look at RPGs as a way to explore Theme and Story.

 

Gamists tend to look at RPGs as a way to "step on up" and try to win, through effective use of the game rules/mechanics.

 

Simulationist is actually harder to explain... it is a focus on the world is what it is, and it unfolds in a way that is way consistent with the established parameters. (I'm of the group that kind of feels that Sim is not really separate from Nar or Gam... but is the underlying process of ALL RPGs, and then that basic simulation is pushed into more or less Gam... more or less Nar... the Beeg Horseshoe model... but that is neither here nor there.)

 

Anyway... Hero as designed is quite a Sim style of game. That is, it's rules, if interpreted strictly, tend to work as a way to design almost a "physics" for your game world... then let it unfold. What many would call munchkin Hero is taking the rules to the Gamist extreme, where "If it can be done, it should be done, to crush the world with only 350 points." What Hero does NOT do is support Nar play with any real mechanics.

 

Nar mechanics tend to be things like Fate Systems, or character building stats like White Wolf's Demeanor (I think that is what it's called) and such. They provide larger scope, open ended, Story based guidelines and in game mechanics that allow for and encourage Story over accepting only what the points/dice say. Hero, in literal terms, says "If it isn't bought with points, you can't do it... it doesn't happen... no matter what might be good for the Story, or an exploration of Theme.

 

Disadvantages CAN be a Nar element... providing grist for the mill of Story and Theme in a charater... but because they are laden with points and activations and such, they aren't the best at that. Now the Power Skill roll is an attempt to add a bit of this Nar mechanic into Hero... but again, not very well.

 

SFX (Special Effects) though... have always been a Nar element. This has always been the place where points didn't really define things, and a play group open to some flexibility could allow things like "Frost Guy is able to snuff the boiler fire by coating it in ice (putting his entangle around it) even though he really doesn't have Dispell Fire, or Change Environment or what have you. We'll allow it because such an action is appropriate for the Story... it fits Frost Guy's theme of protecting innocents, because the player chose to try and put out the fire rather than blast the badguys, because he was exploring Theme.

 

Thus a handwave mechanic of SFX allows for this, where the rest of Hero doesn't support Nar play "mechanically." (This is not to say Nar play with Hero isn't possible... I've been doing it for almost a quarter of a century... but you have to build the Nar elements into your game... they aren't part of the core axioms or mechanics.)

 

Anyway... this is a long e-mail, and I'm sure you fell asleep a couple of paragraphs ago... but anyway... that's my take on it. Other GNS (Gamist,Narrativist,Simulationist) types will probably say I'm all wrong on my interpretation... but I don't care. It works for me this way.

 

Sorry you asked yet?