Intelligent multipowers

[Sean Waters]

Here's the idea; I have this freeze gun. If I shoot it at a characters it acts like a stun only energy blast, if I shoot it at liquids it freezes them (transform or change environment) and if I shoot it at solid inanimate objects it makes them brittle (maybe a small continuing uncontrolled supress of BODY and PD). So I build it as a multipower. Cool.

 

Now I shoot this freeze ray at what I think is a character, using the first slot. Only it isn't a character it is an animated pool of water a villain has shambling towards me.

 

Now in theory the shot is wasted: in fact the attack is the same whatever the target; the MP is just there to define differnt effect on different targets.

 

Now I know the sensible answer is 'wave that hand', but, putting your rules lawyer head on, what (if anything) would you charge as an advantage to have a multipower 'intelligently and automatically' use an appropriate slot?

 

(Actually a better example might be a mental disruption ray: against nonpsionics, it is a mental blast, against psionics it is a drain on their mental powers, but you don't need to know if they have psionic powers, you just point and shoot: the same stuff comes out the end of the gun either way)

 

Thoughts, anyone?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Intelligent multipowers

 

I suppose the technically correct means might be to buy all the relevant attacks (no multipower) and Link them so they must all be used together. Each power would then be Limited to not work if one of the other powers works.

 

So, your Psionic ray would be an Ego Blast (does not work versus psionics) and the drain (which would have no limitation, since not working against characters who have nothing to drain isn't limiting).

 

Much more expensive than what you're looking for, I suspect.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Intelligent multipowers

 

When I've done this style of thing before I've always considered it a SFX because MP slots are 0 phase to change, but from a rules lawyer perspective, I'd say a +1/4 custom advantage, as you could build the effect with a clever use of triggers for the same advantage (tho it'd be a lot clumsier)

[RDU Neil]

Re: Intelligent multipowers

 

I hate it when my Multipowers are intelligent. They keep outsmarting me.

 

Kinda like the last sword I found.

 

It kept beating me at chess.

 

 

 

 

 

That sucked.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Intelligent multipowers

 

I hate it when my Multipowers are intelligent. They keep outsmarting me.

 

Kinda like the last sword I found.

 

It kept beating me at chess.

 

 

 

 

 

That sucked.

 

maybe that was the wrong word to use...

 

Good rules lawyering, Hugh! +1/4 sounds about right AmadanNaBriona. Cheers.

[Beastial]

Re: Intelligent multipowers

 

So' date=' your Psionic ray would be an Ego Blast (does not work versus psionics) and the drain (which would have no limitation, since not working against characters who have nothing to drain isn't limiting).[/quote']

 

 

I agree with your thinking here... but I think we could get the drain a little cheaper:

 

First: a two-way-link for the powers is -1/2 for the lesser power and -1/4 for the greater. Not sure which way it goes when they're the same cost. Now you can't use either one alone, you have to use both (or all three, or whatever).

 

Second: You could limit the drain's SFX a bit. No "ego-based-on-CON" for starters (-1/4). Only on human-mind-class powers... -1/4 seems generous though that would depend on your campaign. Call it a -0. -1/4 only on people with for psi-effect powers (no magical/whatever-else-you-come-up-with powers). Not much of a difference... perhaps you could define it as "only vs people with mental awareness", which opens the possibility that it would try to drain something that wasn't there (which may be accurate depending on how you define the power).

 

So we've got an ego blast that doesn't work on mentalists... -1/2? and a pair of -1/4's on the drain...

 

IF they're the same point cost, and the book says they both get the -1/2, that means you're looking at a -1 for each power. That means it's actually CHEAPER to get the two powers linked this way just because you don't have to pay any costs for pool slots.

 

Up side: If you had an area advantage (AoE, explosion), it'll effect each target in the area appropriately... you'd get a one-or-the-other effect with the multi-power pool, which wouldn't make sense.

 

Down side: You've got to pay END for both every time. You're talking about a weapon though, so giving both slots the same number of charges would eliminate this problem.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Intelligent multipowers

 

I've run this as a -0 switch on the pool = "No choice of which slot is used, appropriate choice is automatically used". Of course, I wouldn't then allow seperate limits for "only vs water" or somesuch on the slots...

[austenandrews]

Re: Intelligent multipowers

 

I've run this as a -0 switch on the pool = "No choice of which slot is used' date=' appropriate choice is automatically used". Of course, I wouldn't then allow seperate limits for "only vs water" or somesuch on the slots...[/quote']

That's exactly what I was going to say. Sort of a benign version of No Conscious Control that equals out to a zero modifier.

[Fox1]

Re: Intelligent multipowers

 

I've run this as a -0 switch on the pool = "No choice of which slot is used' date=' appropriate choice is automatically used". Of course, I wouldn't then allow seperate limits for "only vs water" or somesuch on the slots...[/quote']

 

That's how I would run with it.

[tesuji]

Re: Intelligent multipowers

 

Now in theory the shot is wasted: in fact the attack is the same whatever the target; the MP is just there to define differnt effect on different targets.

 

Now I know the sensible answer is 'wave that hand', but, putting your rules lawyer head on, what (if anything) would you charge as an advantage to have a multipower 'intelligently and automatically' use an appropriate slot?

 

(Actually a better example might be a mental disruption ray: against nonpsionics, it is a mental blast, against psionics it is a drain on their mental powers, but you don't need to know if they have psionic powers, you just point and shoot: the same stuff comes out the end of the gun either way)

 

Thoughts, anyone?

 

See this isn't a multipower at all to me, and while your initial example is rather benign, your second example starts getting into the realm of "well, this matters!"

 

A multipower gives you a huge price break for having a variety of powers but not all at once.

 

By adding in any sort of "intelligence" which eliminates you needing to pick a slot but letting circumstance pick the best slot for you, you start to get into really tough power level issues.

 

The "if he is psionic, and is more likely to have mental defense, use the drain" example is a good one. Another might be an NND paired with an AP RKA where, if the target has hardened defenses, the NND kicks in instead.

 

All of these are NOT multipowers.

 

They are double powers linked together with a limit on when they take effect. Kind of a joint linked with lockout-like conditional.

 

Sure, its a lot more expensive than your multipower idea, but paying a goodly amount for "and i always choose the better attack" doesn't seem to be wrong.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Intelligent multipowers

 

A multipower gives you a huge price break for having a variety of powers but not all at once.

 

Adding to this, it also does not permit you to use both powers at once in an MPA. After a fashion, that is what the proposed construct does, albeit with two powers that will never both have an effect at the same time (but that's a separate limitation).

 

By adding in any sort of "intelligence" which eliminates you needing to pick a slot but letting circumstance pick the best slot for you' date=' you start to get into really tough power level issues.[/quote']

 

Effectively, it adds a free Detect ability. If my "double power" is a Stun only EB that affects organics and an RKA for dealing with automatons, say, I am never fooled by that hyper-realistic shape shifting robot, where other heroes exhast themselves firing of attacks less than fully effective against this opponent. A significant advantage exists in many cases. Sub in a very human-looking automoton water elemental automoton, and we see the effectiveness of Sean's first proposal.

 

The "if he is psionic' date=' and is more likely to have mental defense, use the drain" example is a good one. Another might be an NND paired with an AP RKA where, if the target has hardened defenses, the NND kicks in instead.[/quote']

 

And again, an automatic ablity to detect this person is psionic (with the possible limitation that I don't know he's psionic, but does it matter if I always choose the best power to hit him with?). Consider any other power matched with a Drain Shape Change and Images.

 

Sure' date=' its a lot more expensive than your multipower idea, but paying a goodly amount for "and i always choose the better attack" doesn't seem to be wrong.[/quote']

 

Take it back to the basic attack multipower. Would anyone allow a MP consisting of the following:

 

(a) NND vs [whatever] (only acts if no other slot acts)

( AP EB (only acts if the target has the defense for the NND and no other slot acts)

© Normal EB (only acts if the target has the NND defense and hardended defenses and slot (d) does not activate)

(d) RKA (only acts if target does not have the Stun characteristic)

 

Sounds like a pretty stoked ability for only 40% more (less than a +1/2 advantage) over the cost of, say, a normal energy blast.

 

Hey, let's take it one step further - let's make a five slot multipower of PD, ED, Flash Def, Mental Defense and Power Defense Force field. Whatever I'm being attacked with activates atomatically. For 45 points, I get +30 to whatever defense I need for every attack that hits me. Poor sucker who didn't use this construct paid 150!

[Trebuchet]

Re: Intelligent multipowers

 

See this isn't a multipower at all to me, and while your initial example is rather benign, your second example starts getting into the realm of "well, this matters!"

 

A multipower gives you a huge price break for having a variety of powers but not all at once.

 

By adding in any sort of "intelligence" which eliminates you needing to pick a slot but letting circumstance pick the best slot for you, you start to get into really tough power level issues.

 

The "if he is psionic, and is more likely to have mental defense, use the drain" example is a good one. Another might be an NND paired with an AP RKA where, if the target has hardened defenses, the NND kicks in instead.

 

All of these are NOT multipowers.

 

They are double powers linked together with a limit on when they take effect. Kind of a joint linked with lockout-like conditional.

 

Sure, its a lot more expensive than your multipower idea, but paying a goodly amount for "and i always choose the better attack" doesn't seem to be wrong.

I agree with tesuji. Automatically using the "right" Power against an opponent is an Advantage. "He looked just like a water elemental; thank goodness my trusty Intelli-Freeze Gunâ„¢ knew the difference and recognized it was just water animated with TK!"

 

The dangers of inadvertantly using the wrong attack (either because it's too powerful or too weak) is one all supers face. If you want an attack that does this, buy a Linked attack and slap a "Does not work vs. _________" on it.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Intelligent multipowers

 

Hey' date=' let's take it one step further - let's make a five slot multipower of PD, ED, Flash Def, Mental Defense and Power Defense Force field. Whatever I'm being attacked with activates atomatically. For 45 points, I get +30 to whatever defense I need for every attack that hits me. Poor sucker who didn't use this construct paid 150![/quote']Damn, why didn't I think of that? That would really beef up my supervillains!

[Zed-F]

Re: Intelligent multipowers

 

Sounds like a multipower would only work if you added a detect bought as a sense to go with it. Of course you will need to think of a detect that seems reasonably likely to be able to discriminate between the different kinds of targets you have slots for.

 

That's more expensive than just buying the multipower, but potentially less expensive than buying the powers and linking them together, especially in the event you have more than 2 possible effects.

[austenandrews]

Re: Intelligent multipowers

 

See this isn't a multipower at all to me' date=' and while your initial example is rather benign, your second example starts getting into the realm of "well, this matters!"[/quote']

I would definitely impose this caveat. The first example to me is a reasonable application of a multipower, for the sake of simplicity. I'm a fan of simplicity in design, where possible. Other examples in this thread go beyond reasonable and I wouldn't allow them. Nor would I allow the player to slowly beef up such a multipower to turn it into something abusive.

[Fox1]

Re: Intelligent multipowers

 

I would definitely impose this caveat. The first example to me is a reasonable application of a multipower' date=' for the sake of simplicity. I'm a fan of simplicity in design, where possible. Other examples in this thread go beyond reasonable and I wouldn't allow them. Nor would I allow the player to slowly beef up such a multipower to turn it into something abusive.[/quote']

 

I agree with this PoV.

 

The original concept wasn't a matter of using the most effective power as such, it was an attempt to recreate the SPX of a single attack. On that basis I'd let it pass.

 

The minute it starts going into selecting the best game option vs. specific game target- it's crossed the line and needs to be looked at in more detail.

[tesuji]

Re: Intelligent multipowers

 

I would definitely impose this caveat. The first example to me is a reasonable application of a multipower' date=' for the sake of simplicity. I'm a fan of simplicity in design, where possible. Other examples in this thread go beyond reasonable and I wouldn't allow them. Nor would I allow the player to slowly beef up such a multipower to turn it into something abusive.[/quote']

 

Ahhh... something to debate.

 

Why is it "simpler" to do the following...

 

1. Build two distinct powers.

2. put them in a multipower of appropriate ap.

3. come up with a homegrown advantage of value X to represent they automatically choose for you which is the one that fired so you don't have to based on the target's properties (whether obvious or not.)

4. determine total cost.

 

instead of doing the following...

1. Build two distinct powers.

2. Apply the linked limitation

3. Come up with homegrown limitation to have only one affect the target based on the target's properties (whether obvious or not.)

 

???

 

simplicity doesn't seem to favor either side.

 

Now, of course the argument can be made that in the case of the freeze ray, the big savings in cost is appropriate. maybe for this combo the "choose by target" isn't getting you anything. But of course, that would also be a good justification for making "chosen by target properties" a very large limitation value for that combo, while "chosen by target properties" might be a very low limitation for the "ego blast or mental drain" option.

[austenandrews]

Re: Intelligent multipowers

 

Now' date=' of course the argument can be made that in the case of the freeze ray, the big savings in cost is appropriate. maybe for this combo the "choose by target" isn't getting you anything.[/quote']

Exactly my point, which is why I'd allow the construct in that case. It's not so much a "big savings in cost" as costing the freeze ray akin to a single power.

 

In truth, in several cases I've wound up doing the same thing as the MP construct anyway. The last Champs PC I ran had the power to transform elements of the environment into weapons - frex, she'd morph an electrical wire from the wall and use it to zap the bad guy. Essentially I had a MP with three slots: 1) Basic attack, environmental morphing = SFX; 2) Basic attack + Transform Side Effects, for when the GM decided something detrimental would happen that warranted rolling the SE; 3) Transform attack, for when the environmental impact became the dominant effect (like morphing electrical wires out of the enemy's computer).

 

Which slot I used depended on the situation. In other words, a GM call. I didn't take any modifiers for it. We just worked it that way because it was simple and made sense.

[tesuji]

Re: Intelligent multipowers

 

 

Exactly my point, which is why I'd allow the construct in that case. It's not so much a "big savings in cost" as costing the freeze ray akin to a single power.

Gotcha, and for my flavor of the tomato-tomahto side, i would get the cost in line not by allowing a frameowkr i would not normally let handle it in most cases, but by building them consistently and letting the value of the "based on target properties" be a very high limitation for the freeze ray but a very low value for the "best mental attack" ray.

 

 

In truth, in several cases I've wound up doing the same thing as the MP construct anyway. The last Champs PC I ran had the power to transform elements of the environment into weapons - frex, she'd morph an electrical wire from the wall and use it to zap the bad guy. Essentially I had a MP with three slots: 1) Basic attack, environmental morphing = SFX; 2) Basic attack + Transform Side Effects, for when the GM decided something detrimental would happen that warranted rolling the SE; 3) Transform attack, for when the environmental impact became the dominant effect (like morphing electrical wires out of the enemy's computer).

Still one i would do with linked attack and transform with a partial SE limit (since its not always) and the "based on target" limitation. I would imagine that in 5e some of this could be handled by the "side effect affects environment" variation more or less directly.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Intelligent multipowers

 

Regarding the defense pool example: it was my understanding you can only change the way a pool is distributed once per phase...

[Zed-F]

Re: Intelligent multipowers

 

Regarding the defense pool example: it was my understanding you can only change the way a pool is distributed once per phase...

That's correct. In a multi-person fight where the guy could expect to be attacked with more than one damage form, he might opt for the 'balanced' slot. But in a fight where he's only expecting one damage form to be incoming (e.g. everyone splits off into separate pairs, or fighting against one tougher bad guy,) it gives a powerful advantage.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Intelligent multipowers

 

Regarding the defense pool example: it was my understanding you can only change the way a pool is distributed once per phase...

 

I thought the FAQ previously idnciated this was not the case, but might reasonably be imposed for balance issues.

[Vondy]

Re: Intelligent multipowers

 

I would probably allow it in general, but I'd watch it fairly closely. I don't know if I'd give value for it. My reasoning is that the SFX is that its one attack that has different effects depending on the target. The player may not know which slot to pick, but implicity in the SFX of the weapon is that the logical and correct effect is applied. I would probably express it as "correct sfx applied by default +0. If I was inclined to charge for it (unlikely), I wouldn't go past +1/4.

[AnotherSkip]

Re: Intelligent multipowers

 

The REAL answer however is Steve Built a Multipower that "automatically chose the right power" in the G&G (guns/weapons section)book. The rational behind it was 'it was a single "attack"that acted differently upon different targets' exactly what the poster originally stated.

 

And yes in the wrong hands this could be abusive.

 

Just like anything else in HERO!

[tesuji]

Re: Intelligent multipowers

 

Steve Built a Multipower that "automatically chose the right power" in the G&G (guns/weapons section)book. The rational behind it was 'it was a single "attack"that acted differently upon different targets' exactly what the poster originally stated.

 

for the benefit of us who dont own that book, could you post the writeup for that weapon, please?

 

thanks in advance.