New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

[schir1964]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

Sorry' date=' now I'm confused more as to your last point/question...which "only one power at a time" lim are you addressing, one from standard HERO I assume as you mention about asking Long, but which specific rule?[/quote']

Well, I thought you were suggesting that there needs to be a way to have an Adjustment Power, limited to just affecting "Only One Power At A Time" of a given SFX.

 

What got me confused is that the current rules already define most of the Advantages as only "Only One thing At A Time".

 

To give an example:

Drain vs Fire (SFX Advantage says "Any One Power Of SFX At A Time"). The advantage already limited in this fashion. Since Drain is an Attack, you can only use it vs a single power at a time. To affect more than one power at a time, you need the additional advantage "Simultaneously".

 

There's a lot of hidden subtlety in the Adjustment Powers section of the book.

 

This was just for clarification. Just in case some of this information may not be known.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

Like I suggested Drain Fire Energy Blast would be a -2 since almost all of the utility of Drain is removed since the character can only drain the mechanic of Energy Blast and not RKA or any other mechanic with the sfx of Fire.

 

One SFX power one at a time would to me be the basis, scale upwards with an advantage, gain additional SFX with an advantage. Getting a character with effects all Powers of Any SFX would be *extremely* expensive, and thus would not be unbalancing. Very unlike the current I drain Energy Blast of any SFX model in 5ER scaling upwards to effect multiple powers with an advantage.

 

Hawksmoor

Hawksmoor

I think we're on the same page but I don't think that's the build schir1964 is proposing - I think what you are calling a Limited power he is saying is the regular power. Neither is wrong, your way simply starts with a higher power before being limited and his starts with a very specific, granular power before being expanded. I would tend to go your way, myself.

[schir1964]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

The first is that you've increased bookkeeping...

Have you checked the latest clarifications from Steve Long on Adjustment Powers. This is no more bookkeeping than the current method, since every Adjustment Power used must be kept track of separately with fading. Yes, Steve Long specifically said that each Attack's Fade Rate is independent of each other. That means if you attack with Drain two phases in a row, those Drains Fade separately, not together. Not sure how you can much more bookkeeping than that.

 

However, to address you point directly, yes, it is a lot of bookkeeping, but I don't know a better way to do it without losing granularity.

 

Second' date=' your gradual return rate limitation value is bad. (Your listed cost is different from the examples, I used teh examples values, cut these in half for the listed cost.) I think that the effective difference between returning 1/4 4 times a turn (-1) and returning 1/12 12 times a turn (-6) is pretty minimal for the difffernce in cost. Heck, the difference between 1/4 (-1) and 1/2 (-1/2) is going to be effectively different only for a couple of the targets phases in a turn. The cost savings can be incredible to the attacker. Also you've increased the bookkeeping again.[/quote']

Thank you very much! I'm not a number cruncher so I'll take your word for it. I'll have to go back and recheck things slowly. It's possible I miscalculated something.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

I think we're on the same page but I don't think that's the build schir1964 is proposing - I think what you are calling a Limited power he is saying is the regular power. Neither is wrong' date=' your way simply starts with a higher power before being limited and his starts with a very specific, granular power before being expanded. I would tend to go your way, myself.[/quote']

Absolutely correct. And I'll reinforce what zornwil said, either way is just as valid a method. It's just my preference to build up is all. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[tarragon]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

Have you checked the latest clarifications from Steve Long on Adjustment Powers. This is no more bookkeeping than the current method' date=' since every Adjustment Power used must be kept track of separately with fading. Yes, Steve Long specifically said that each Attack's Fade Rate is independent of each other. [/quote']

 

I'm not sure exactly what clarification you're refering to. Even so I don't believe it matters. All adjustment fade rate is dealt with post 12, if not it's such an ingrained house rule that I know no different.

 

This system is still more bookkeeping, not only do you have to track each one seperatly, you have to track which phase it happened on. How often are people going to roll dice and then after the fact notice that they were still drained. How much mental effort is going to be expended per phase checking that something faded.

 

This isn't a dealbreaker, but it has to be looked at.

[schir1964]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

Gradual Return Rate

 

Limitation / Effect / Example

 

-1/4 / Half / One Turn, 60 AP = 30 AP ~ Six Segments (SPD 2)

-1/2 / Fourth / One Turn, 60 AP = 15 AP ~ Three Segments (SPD 4)

-3/4 / Eighth / One Turn, 60 AP = 8 AP ~ Two Segments (SPD 8)

-1 / Sixteenth / One Turn, 60 AP = 4 AP ~ 1 Segment (SPD 12)

 

-1/4 / Half / One Minute, 60 AP = 30 AP ~ Three Turns

-1/2 / Fourth / One Minute, 60 AP = 15 AP ~ One Turn (SPD 1)

-3/4 / Eighth / One Minute 60 AP = 8 AP ~ Six Segments (SPD 2)

-1 / Sixteenth / One Minute, 60 AP = 4 AP ~ Three Segment (SPD 4)

 

Comments/Suggestions

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

I'm not sure exactly what clarification you're refering to. Even so I don't believe it matters. All adjustment fade rate is dealt with post 12, if not it's such an ingrained house rule that I know no different.

 

This system is still more bookkeeping, not only do you have to track each one seperatly, you have to track which phase it happened on. How often are people going to roll dice and then after the fact notice that they were still drained. How much mental effort is going to be expended per phase checking that something faded.

 

This isn't a dealbreaker, but it has to be looked at.

Okay, let me show you how the current rules, per Steve Long, says it's supposed to work:

 

1st Drain Attack: 12 AP Effect

2nd Drain Attack: 16 AP Effect

3rd Drain Attack: 20 AP Effect

 

Post Segment 12 Bookkeeping

1st Drain Attack: 12 - 5 = 7 Effect Remaining

2nd Drain Attack: 16 - 5 = 11 Effect Remaining

3rd Drain Attack: 20 - 5 = 15 Effect Remaining

 

Granted, my system add more bookkeeping, but grants more flexibility/granularity as to what you can simulate.

 

So, my statement stands. I don't know how to simplify it, without losing flexiblity/granularity.

 

If you know a way to simply without losing the flexiblity I'm aiming for, please post it.

 

Addendum: Remember, my goal is more Flexibility and Consistency. Having a rigid Return Rate that can't be changed (5 Per...) restricts Flexiblity. It's not for everyone and you don't have to include it, but it's there for anyone who does want to do it. Just like END is there for anyone who wants to use it. It's optional. That's right... Endurance tracking is optional, you don't have to have Power or Action cost endurance. It's simpler, but how many people actually run their games that way? It's a matter of taste.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[tarragon]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

[Edited to say: "That was posted before I saw the new proposed fade rate"]

I didn't crunch any numbers about fade rate, but I can come up with a quick example. This is fade rate differences for a speed 5 character hit on 12. I'm assuimg the fade is at the end of a phase.

 

With no fade rate reduction and everything else being equal you get 60 points of effect for teh entire turn for 60 real points

 

With a fade rate of 4 times a turn (-1) you get 60 points of effect for 30 real points, while the target loses:

Phase / Reduction

3 / 60

5 / 45

8 / 30

10 / 15

12 / 15

 

Worth that -1? Maybe.

 

With a fade rate of 12 times a turn (-6) you get 60 points of effect for 8 real points, while the target loses:

Phase Reduction

3 / 50

5 / 40

8 / 25

10 / 15

12 / 5

 

The effective difference between that -1 limitation and that -6 limitation is almost nothing. The reduction is 5 active points lower 4 out of the 5 phases and only drasticly lower on 12, when the reduction is already pretty weak.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

For my experience that (Steve's offical way) was always how Adjustment powers worked to me and with every group I played with. Yes it made record keeping a bear, but that was the balancing factor with adjustments. If you used them prepare to use the scrap paper *a lot*.

 

Hawksmoor

[schir1964]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

For my experience that (Steve's offical way) was always how Adjustment powers worked to me and with every group I played with. Yes it made record keeping a bear, but that was the balancing factor with adjustments. If you used them prepare to use the scrap paper *a lot*.

 

Hawksmoor

Yep, and since you're going to have to do that anyway, why not go ahead and add the flexibility it should have had in the first place. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

Oh yeah, just a reminder, I haven't actually suggested any Costs for the Adjustment Powers. I think many of them are way too undercosted for what the y give, but that's just me.

 

However, for comparison sake, using the existing costs is fine, as far as it can be.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

Gradual Return Rate

 

Limitation / Effect / Example

 

-1/4 / Half / One Turn, 60 AP = 30 AP ~ Six Segments (SPD 2)

-1/2 / Fourth / One Turn, 60 AP = 15 AP ~ Three Segments (SPD 4)

-3/4 / Eighth / One Turn, 60 AP = 8 AP ~ Two Segments (SPD 8)

-1 / Sixteenth / One Turn, 60 AP = 4 AP ~ 1 Segment (SPD 12)

 

-1/4 / Half / One Minute, 60 AP = 30 AP ~ Three Turns

-1/2 / Fourth / One Minute, 60 AP = 15 AP ~ One Turn (SPD 1)

-3/4 / Eighth / One Minute 60 AP = 8 AP ~ Six Segments (SPD 2)

-1 / Sixteenth / One Minute, 60 AP = 4 AP ~ Three Segment (SPD 4)

 

Comments/Suggestions

 

- Christopher Mullins

I'm confused on this - if this is the rate of return for your target, wouldn't the higher Lims be more points returned?

[schir1964]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

The limitation simply disperses the points over the duration of time. Thus the points begin returning sooner, but the entire set of points will be return completely at the end of the duration.

 

There is a question on what these values should be, that's why I posted it separately for discussion.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

Bump

 

Just in case anyone had anymore suggestions.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[ideasmith]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

How about having the adjudtment fade at the post-segment-12 of the following turn?

[schir1964]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

For what purpose?

 

I don't quite follow why waiting an extra turn would be beneficial. Can you elaborate?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[ideasmith]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

For what purpose?

 

I don't quite follow why waiting an extra turn would be beneficial. Can you elaborate?

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

rreay wanted the bookkeeping to take place on post-segment 12.

[schir1964]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

rreay wanted the bookkeeping to take place on post-segment 12.

Recheck the initial post and check specifically "Set Return Rate". I think this does what you want already.

 

- Christopher Mullins