New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

[schir1964]

Adjustment Powers (An Alternate System) [Revision 2]

 

Description

Adjustment Powers affect other powers and characteristics by either increasing or decreasing thier active points. These points return to the target after one turn has passed. The Return Rate is 100%. The power initially affects a single SFX of a Single Power. The player must decide the Target SFX upon purchase.

 

Usage

When a player uses an Adjustment Power, he rolls the dice to determine the number of Active Points that are affected. This amount is added or removed from the power/stat affected. This effect lasts exactly one Turn, after which the effect disappears and all the points return to normal (Example: If a power is affected on Segment 4, then the effect vanishes at the beginning of Segment 4 in the next Turn). Points always return at the beginning of a segment.

 

Modifiers

 

Duration: The duration of effect can be moved up and down the Time chart. Each Increase of Duration on the Time Chart is a +1/2 Advantage. Each Decrease of Duration on the Time Chart is a -1/2 Limitation (A Phase of effect is based on the Target's Phase not the Attacker's).

 

Gradual Return Rate: You can make the points of effect diminish gradually over the Duration of effect. Each division of effect is -1/4 Limitation.

 

Examples:

30 AP Effect, Duration 1 Turn, Gradual Effect (1/2 Effect): -1/4

Half the AP points (15 AP) would return to normal after 1/2 Turn (6 Segments) has passed.

12 AP Effect, Duration 1 Turn, Gradual Effect (1/12 Effect): -1

1 AP Effect returns each Segment.

 

Increased SFX: This modifier expands the number SFX that can be affected. (+1/4 Advantage Doubles Number Of SFX Affected)

 

Possible Modifiers

 

Personal Return Rate: Return Rate of points is determined by Target's Personal REC Characteristic. (-1 Limitation)

 

Set Return Rate: Return Rate is a set number of points per turn. Advantage if the number of points is less than Default Return Rate (Varies). Limitation if the number of points is more than the Default Return Rate (Varies).

 

Notes

Standard Adjustment modifiers can be applied as normal, with the exceptions listed above.

 

This is a very rough first draft and subject to many changes during this thread. This idea was inspired by another thread.

 

Comments

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Beastial]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

Okay, comments:

 

You left out how much a die would cost. That seems pretty important to me... or are you proposing that we do away with dice all together and take a 'standard-effect'-ish thing here?

 

Your examples could use a bit more meat on their bones too. 30 active points for what exactly? Providing an actual play example would help quite a bit.

 

 

It sounds like you want to get rid of everything except aid and drain... and have everything else 'built' with advantages and limitations (suppress: drain w/ costs END to maintain, transfer: linked aid and drain, absorbtion: aid -1 only up to body physical-or-energy of attack).

 

How is this different from the present system? The only thing I see here is that time chart changes are now 1/2's instead of 1/4's and the "fade all at once" thing.

 

What motivates these changes?

 

What about the 'increased maximum' adder?

 

 

By all means, continue writing up your revisions... I'm curious to see where you're going with this. The Adjustment powers are very abusable, but I don't see anything here that changes that.

 

PS: Which thread inspired this one?

[Sean Waters]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

Wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition Bestial seems to have covered the comment points though.

 

I wouldn't mind a standard effect for adjustment powers (although you can do that already to an extent). My biggest gripe with them is the 5 points per turn receovery rate: I think you should either recover points by your own REC value (like lost END and STUN) or be able to buy REC that adds to the base 5 points per turn receovery rate.

 

I can see the advantage of adjustment powers lasting just one turn: less paperwork, especially given the recent ruling that every application of adjustment powers receovers/fades seperately. Frankly I'm ignoring that though.

 

The other problem with Adjustment powers is that (to me) they rarely make a great deal of sense in terms of construction, but unless you are going to adopt the (sensible IMO) approach suggested by the great and good that we get rid of straight Power Defence in favour of a more sfx based approach, you can't really address that in the rules.

 

The nastiest drain in many ways is probably INT: it is cheap, so drains quickly, and is rarely very high except in specialist characters. Much quicker and cheaper to zap someone to a drooling idiot than weaken them or paralyse them. This is more than simply a reflection of the relative costs of characteristics: more points get spent on DEX and STR even proportionally than on INT...anyway I'm going way off topic...

[schir1964]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

You left out how much a die would cost. That seems pretty important to me... or are you proposing that we do away with dice all together and take a 'standard-effect'-ish thing here?

I'm getting the rules concepts out of the way first. If you need costs for evaluation, use the existing costs for the Adjustment Powers for now.

 

So what do you think of the rules changes in general, better/worse than the original rules?

 

Your examples could use a bit more meat on their bones too. 30 active points for what exactly? Providing an actual play example would help quite a bit.

30 Active Points of "Effect", again, if you need a specific, choose Drain or some other Adjustment Power.

 

It sounds like you want to get rid of everything except aid and drain... and have everything else 'built' with advantages and limitations (suppress: drain w/ costs END to maintain' date=' transfer: linked aid and drain, absorbtion: aid -1 only up to body physical-or-energy of attack).[/quote']

If you read the section on Adjustment Powers before the actual Power listings, you'll see that they cover the general rules for Adjustment Powers and only use specific ones in examples of certain rules application.

 

I'm simply doing the same thing here.

 

How is this different from the present system? The only thing I see here is that time chart changes are now 1/2's instead of 1/4's and the "fade all at once" thing.

Yes, and those are major changes, also, you left out biggest change of all, all Adjustment Powers default to having an Target SFX effect. You can't simply say "vs Energy Blast", you have to give a "vs SFX" and the select the Power/Stat it's against. I'll be adding more modifiers later that will allow expansion of Target SFX. But I want to get feedback on the basic rules changes so far.

 

What motivates these changes?

In a nutshell, it's my opinion that the current Adjustment Rules are inconsistent. The opinion is my own, my very own, my precious.... (8^D)

 

What about the 'increased maximum' adder?

Frankly, I don't see the need for it, but that doesn't mean I'll won't add one if someone thinks there's a real use for it.

 

By all means' date=' continue writing up your revisions... I'm curious to see where you're going with this. The Adjustment powers are very abusable, but I don't see anything here that changes that.[/quote']

Actually, I'm not trying to make Adjustment Powers non-abusable, I'm trying to make a system that is more consistent and more balanced when compared to the rest of the rules.

 

Just do a search on Adjustment in this section for the past two weeks. You'll see plenty, but I think Sean Waters started a thread wanting to know what alternate systems GM used instead the current one. Although I have my own house rules on specific things, I'd never even though about redoing the entire rules of Adjustment Powers. This resulted in looking at this approach in whole new light and some ideas started bubbling around. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

I wouldn't mind a standard effect for adjustment powers (although you can do that already to an extent).

Correct, simply use the Standard Effect Rule as normal.

 

My biggest gripe with them is the 5 points per turn receovery rate: I think you should either recover points by your own REC value (like lost END and STUN) or be able to buy REC that adds to the base 5 points per turn receovery rate.

Which was one of the "Light Bulbs" that came on when I started looking at building it from the ground up. (8^D)

 

However, I didn't want to tie the Fade Rate directly to personal REC by default, however, I could easily see it as a modifier to the system I'm beginning to construct. Frankly, I don't want to get locked into the whole 5 Points thing, it makes no sense when you are buying 6 AP increments. However, buying a Return Rate in whatever increment has great merit to it.

 

Sean, since you inspired this, I'd greatly appreciate any help you can give me on this. (8^D)

 

I can see the advantage of adjustment powers lasting just one turn: less paperwork' date=' especially given the recent ruling that every application of adjustment powers receovers/fades seperately. Frankly I'm ignoring that though.[/quote']

Well, what I wanted to do start simple and allow modifiers to add the complexity needed for specific SFX. At least that was my intent.

 

The other problem with Adjustment powers is that (to me) they rarely make a great deal of sense in terms of construction' date=' but unless you are going to adopt the (sensible IMO) approach suggested by the great and good that we get rid of straight Power Defence in favour of a more sfx based approach, you can't really address that in the rules.[/quote']

You mean beyond requiring a Target SFX by default?

Or are you simply referring to interaction between SFX? If so, I'm not trying to address that, that is best left to the GM's anyway. What I'm trying to do is create more consistent rules that would allow the GM to better determine what results such effects might lead to.

 

Ah, wait, Power Defense.... hmmm... although I do think it needs to go, I'm going to need help in figuring out how to explain a process GM's can use as a measuring stick in reguard to SFX. Any thoughts?

 

The nastiest drain in many ways is probably INT: it is cheap' date=' so drains quickly, and is rarely very high except in specialist characters...[/quote']

As I've said in other threads, Characteristics are completely different animal when SFX are concerned. However, that being the case, perhaps there needs to be some built in mechanics to differentiate affecting Powers SFX, and Characteristics SFX. What do you think?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Gary]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

The nastiest drain in many ways is probably INT: it is cheap' date=' so drains quickly, and is rarely very high except in specialist characters. Much quicker and cheaper to zap someone to a drooling idiot than weaken them or paralyse them. This is more than simply a reflection of the relative costs of characteristics: more points get spent on DEX and STR even proportionally than on INT...anyway I'm going way off topic...[/quote']

 

 

I like the idea that up to the NCM of characteristics would be considered a Defensive power for Adjustment purposes. So for most people, the first 20 pts of most characteristics need to be drained at a 2 for 1 rate.

[prestidigitator]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

I like the idea that up to the NCM of characteristics would be considered a Defensive power for Adjustment purposes. So for most people' date=' the first 20 pts of most characteristics need to be drained at a 2 for 1 rate.[/quote']

Hmm. And the same for Aids and Healing? Currently, all Adjustment Powers have half-effect on defenses. It doesn't seem to make sense, though, to have boosting Adjustment Powers be less effective for a lower valued Characteristic (I'd think it would tend to be the opposite if anything).

[Gary]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

Hmm. And the same for Aids and Healing? Currently' date=' [i']all[/i] Adjustment Powers have half-effect on defenses. It doesn't seem to make sense, though, to have boosting Adjustment Powers be less effective for a lower valued Characteristic (I'd think it would tend to be the opposite if anything).

 

 

Hmm, it may make more sense to amend it so that the lesser of the NCM and your characteristic score is considered a defense for adjustment purposes.

[schir1964]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

Hmm' date=' it may make more sense to amend it so that the [b']lesser[/b] of the NCM and your characteristic score is considered a defense for adjustment purposes.

Actually a more appropriate approach would simply be that defense rule wouldn't apply to raising your own stats. Now whether or not this rule should apply to others stats is another question.

[zornwil]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

Seems like good work. It's hard to evaluate, though, without extrapolation by example. So how do you, conceptually, suppress "blasts of energy", i.e., an all-purpose Energy Blast suppression? Remember, SFX must be declared, so how do you double to "all within reason'? Or are you really proposing doing away, practically, with such an ability as we have now?

[Hawksmoor]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

Variable SFX advantage? +1/2. Still I would prefer to see expanded target group with some SFX unassailable by some other SFX. Mutant Drainer guy can't touch Powered Armor guy, or Magic Girl but with a +1/2 advantage Mutant Ice boy and enhanced alien eyebeam villian are vulnerable to his energy blast (any organic based SFX) Drain.

 

Cheers to Shir1964 for trying to come up with something better than the existing Adjustment rules. I agree that moving the REC rate up deserves a higher advantage than +1/4. Mulitple drains a 5cp/minute is devastating in combat. A dedicated Drainer with properly built powers could zap out powers on an extended basis.

[schir1964]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

Seems like good work. It's hard to evaluate' date=' though, without extrapolation by example. So how do you, conceptually, suppress "blasts of energy", i.e., an all-purpose Energy Blast suppression? Remember, SFX must be declared, so how do you double to "all within reason'? Or are you really proposing doing away, practically, with such an ability as we have now?[/quote']

Not sure why I stopped responding to this thread? Sorry about that.

 

Since there is no such advantage for other powers, it doesn't make much sense that an adjustment power should affect all SFX of Energy Blast (game construct).

 

However, since there is specific advantage for Adjustment Powers to allow this kind of thing, I guess to be consistent I'd follow that.

 

Therefore, to be able to affect all SFX of a single Power, it would be a +2 Advantage, just like it says in the Adjustment Powers section of the 5th Edition Revised.

 

I think this would help balance things out better costwise, however, such SFX that would make sense for adjustment power being able to affect all SFX of only one power construct would be extremely rare. It's be less rare for a SFX to exist that would affect all SFX of all Powers.

 

Just My Humble Opinion

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

Variable SFX advantage? +1/2.

Not Variable SFX, Increased SFX. Or are you referencing something else?

 

 

Still I would prefer to see expanded target group with some SFX unassailable by some other SFX. Mutant Drainer guy can't touch Powered Armor guy' date=' or Magic Girl but with a +1/2 advantage Mutant Ice boy and enhanced alien eyebeam villian are vulnerable to his energy blast (any organic based SFX) Drain.[/quote']

Not sure I understand. There's nothing saying that you can't Expand/Restrict the SFX any way you want. It's up to the GM to determine the what Advantatge/Limitation value would be.

 

Cheers to schir1964 for trying to come up with something better than the existing Adjustment rules. I agree that moving the REC rate up deserves a higher advantage than +1/4. Mulitple drains a 5cp/minute is devastating in combat. A dedicated Drainer with properly built powers could zap out powers on an extended basis.

Well, my whole point of this exercise was to create a system that reflected the Cost Per Benefit gained better than the current one.

 

I just think this makes more sense SFX wise and Ruleswise.

 

Just My Humble Opnion

 

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

Not sure why I stopped responding to this thread? Sorry about that.

 

Since there is no such advantage for other powers, it doesn't make much sense that an adjustment power should affect all SFX of Energy Blast (game construct).

 

However, since there is specific advantage for Adjustment Powers to allow this kind of thing, I guess to be consistent I'd follow that.

 

Therefore, to be able to affect all SFX of a single Power, it would be a +2 Advantage, just like it says in the Adjustment Powers section of the 5th Edition Revised.

 

I think this would help balance things out better costwise, however, such SFX that would make sense for adjustment power being able to affect all SFX of only one power construct would be extremely rare. It's be less rare for a SFX to exist that would affect all SFX of all Powers.

 

Just My Humble Opinion

 

- Christopher Mullins

So then would you support a Limitation such as "One Power", -2 or whatever value? (Like you, I'm less concerned with specific values than concepts at this point, so don't take the -2 as the specific recommended value)

[Hawksmoor]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

For me it would not be a limitation unless the rules were written like this:

 

[Adjustment Power] [Drains/Aids/Suppresses/Transfers] one power of a certain SFX. You could add additional powers as per the existing rules (two, four and on to all SFX Powers at +2).

 

That keeps mechanics out of the equation and leaves adjustments to work on SFX not toolkit powers. So no Energy Blast drain, only Fire Power [One at time) Drain.

 

That way if you wanted a power that adjusted just Fire Energy Blast you could get a limitation, perhaps even -2. Working this way I can even see the Hammer (one EC drain to rule them all) applying fairly and without silliness.

 

Hawksmoor

[zornwil]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

I think I prefer that the power work as "any one power at a time, character's choice, of a certain SFX". So you choose "Fire Drain", you can drain an EB or you can drain an FF, or, if the EC is "Fire Elemental", the whole EC as if it were one power, given how ECs would seem to work in these cases. If you want to drain only one given power period, such as EB, it's a -1 or -2, and if you want to drain only that power with ANY SFX, then it's +2 for any SFX or it's a Variable SFX Advanrage - I think Variable SFX would be cleaner, actually.

 

PS - I do consider this seriously as a possible way to reimplement Adjustment Powers. It's rather simple and might work well across the board. PPS - and in this implementation, the rules for EC can be left alone (you have the correct SFX drain or you do not, that's simple), as well as PowDef can be kept as is if desired (I wouldn't, but that's certainly an entirely different argument, I well grant)

[schir1964]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

So then would you support a Limitation such as "One Power"' date=' -2 or whatever value? (Like you, I'm less concerned with specific values than concepts at this point, so don't take the -2 as the specific recommended value)[/quote']

Oh yes, absolutely. If someone came up with some SFX that made sense that way, I'd have no problem with allowing such a limitation since they would be restricting the utility of the power.

 

The two main things I look for: Flexibility and Consistency (and sometimes they don't like one another (8^D)).

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

For me it would not be a limitation unless the rules were written like this...

Hawksmoor

Absolutely correct. With the system I've presented above, it wouldn't be a limitation, but an Advantage, which makes sense for the utility it grants.

 

I did think about redefining it as you suggest, but I chose to build up instead of starting out with something big and allowing it to be restricted down.

 

Either way works, but I prefer to build up method myself.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

Revision 2 is up. Basically, clarifications on the definition of the power.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

I think I prefer that the power work as "any one power at a time' date=' character's choice, of a certain SFX". So you choose "Fire Drain", you can drain an EB or you can drain an FF, or, if the EC is "Fire Elemental", the whole EC as if it were one power, given how ECs would seem to work in these cases.[/quote']

The Adjustment Powers section has an Advantage to allows you to increase the the number of Powers affected (with All Powers being a +2 Advantage).

 

With this Advantage applied, the character can affect any Power Of Given SFX, one at a time since he must choose when to use the power and on what.

 

If you want to drain only one given power period' date=' such as EB, it's a -1 or -2, and if you want to drain only that power with ANY SFX, then it's +2 for any SFX or it's a Variable SFX Advanrage - I think Variable SFX would be cleaner, actually.[/quote']

With this system, you start out only affecting only a Single Power. If you want to affect a Single Power of Any Given SFX One At A Time, simply apply the standared Variable SFX Advantage to the Target SFX. However, this is a Zero Phase action to change and so you couldn't just keep changing it in a single phase. This advantage would also be invalid for the Attack Adjustment Powers. Hmmm... interesting... I need to check something on this.

 

PS - I do consider this seriously as a possible way to reimplement Adjustment Powers. It's rather simple and might work well across the board. PPS - and in this implementation' date=' the rules for EC can be left alone (you have the correct SFX drain or you do not, that's simple), as well as PowDef can be kept as is if desired (I wouldn't, but that's certainly an entirely different argument, I well grant)[/quote']

Well, I tried to make it as seemless as possible.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

The Adjustment Powers section has an Advantage to allows you to increase the the number of Powers affected (with All Powers being a +2 Advantage).

 

With this Advantage applied, the character can affect any Power Of Given SFX, one at a time since he must choose when to use the power and on what.

 

 

With this system, you start out only affecting only a Single Power. If you want to affect a Single Power of Any Given SFX One At A Time, simply apply the standared Variable SFX Advantage to the Target SFX. However, this is a Zero Phase action to change and so you couldn't just keep changing it in a single phase. This advantage would also be invalid for the Attack Adjustment Powers. Hmmm... interesting... I need to check something on this.

 

 

Well, I tried to make it as seemless as possible.

 

- Christopher Mullins

Thx, it wasn't clear if you were keeping the existing Adjustment Power modifiers.

 

I would say that Vari SFX would have to be a higher value for Adj. Powers.

 

Personally I think it's as or more important to allow for affecting a "Any Given Power of a Single SFX One At a TIme" than the other case, the "SIngle Power of Any Given SFX One At a Time", btw. I would personally make the power work more by default against any one power of a single SFX, the modifier upward would be for more than 1 power at at time. I would not have the single power declared. Hmm, well, perhaps I would go for making it dedicatd to a single power and single SFX, but I think the value would be pretty low, then, such as simply 1 point per 1d6 even.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

Thx, it wasn't clear if you were keeping the existing Adjustment Power modifiers.

 

I would say that Vari SFX would have to be a higher value for Adj. Powers.

 

Personally I think it's as or more important to allow for affecting a "Any Given Power of a Single SFX One At a TIme" than the other case, the "SIngle Power of Any Given SFX One At a Time", btw. I would personally make the power work more by default against any one power of a single SFX, the modifier upward would be for more than 1 power at at time. I would not have the single power declared. Hmm, well, perhaps I would go for making it dedicatd to a single power and single SFX, but I think the value would be pretty low, then, such as simply 1 point per 1d6 even.

 

Like I suggested Drain Fire Energy Blast would be a -2 since almost all of the utility of Drain is removed since the character can only drain the mechanic of Energy Blast and not RKA or any other mechanic with the sfx of Fire.

 

One SFX power one at a time would to me be the basis, scale upwards with an advantage, gain additional SFX with an advantage. Getting a character with effects all Powers of Any SFX would be *extremely* expensive, and thus would not be unbalancing. Very unlike the current I drain Energy Blast of any SFX model in 5ER scaling upwards to effect multiple powers with an advantage.

 

Hawksmoor

Hawksmoor

[schir1964]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

Thx' date=' it wasn't clear if you were keeping the existing Adjustment Power modifiers.[/quote']

Yeah, I noticed it was a bit vague on a couple of points.

 

I would say that Vari SFX would have to be a higher value for Adj. Powers.

That's what I was checking on. It seems to me that the "Variable Effect" advantage for Adjustment Powers, supplants the standard "Variable SFX " Advantage and makes it invalid for Adjustment Powers.

 

Personally I think it's as or more important to allow for affecting a "Any Given Power of a Single SFX One At a TIme" than the other case' date=' the "SIngle Power of Any Given SFX One At a Time", btw.[/quote']

Well, as I mentioned, this is already implemented with the standard advantage defined for Adjustment Powers.

 

Here's the curious point though, and one that might only be clarified by Steve Long, if you take the All Powers +2 Advantage for an Adjustment Power (talking current rules here), by default the power is usable against "Only One Power At A Time". So I'm having difficulty getting my head wrapped around how having the "Only One Power At A Time" limitation is actually limiting?

 

That's the reason there is an additional Advantage for affecting things simultaneously.

 

Am I missing something?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

Sorry, now I'm confused more as to your last point/question...which "only one power at a time" lim are you addressing, one from standard HERO I assume as you mention about asking Long, but which specific rule?

 

My quoted note was just stressing it was important to address these aspects, not saying how (doesn't have to be a lim or adv, can just be the rules "as is" - I think your construct addresses it

[tarragon]

Re: New System: Adjustment Powers Redone

 

Two points that no one has touched on yet.

 

The first is that you've increased bookkeeping. By having the return happen exactly a turn after the hit happens you're making everyone record and the segment they got hit and check for return at the end of every segment. By the default (or house rule, who can remember these days) of returning post 12 thebookkeeping is reduced at the expense of a slightly weaker effect for an attack in the end of the round vs. the begining.

 

Second, your gradual return rate limitation value is bad. (Your listed cost is different from the examples, I used teh examples values, cut these in half for the listed cost.) I think that the effective difference between returning 1/4 4 times a turn (-1) and returning 1/12 12 times a turn (-6) is pretty minimal for the difffernce in cost. Heck, the difference between 1/4 (-1) and 1/2 (-1/2) is going to be effectively different only for a couple of the targets phases in a turn. The cost savings can be incredible to the attacker. Also you've increased the bookkeeping again.