POWER DEFENSE Works 1-for-1 Against Negative (C)SLs!?

[prestidigitator]

Did you catch THIS one?

 

Q: What defense applies against Negative Combat Skill Levels?

 

 

A: Power Defense — each point of Power Defense negates one Negative CSL, Negative PSL, or Negative SL

So for one Character Point worth of Power Defense you can block only one point of effect from Drains, Transfers, Transforms, etc., but a whole Negative ©SL! Doesn't that sound a little extreme? I'd probably allow PSLs themselves to be bought for countering any Negative SLs. It seems that this is too broad an application for Power Defense, and certainly on a one-for-one basis! (Oh, and Negative PSLs don't seem to make much sense at all!)

 

What do you think?

[Fox1]

Re: POWER DEFENSE Works 1-for-1 Against Negative ©SLs!?

 

What do you think?

 

The rule of thumb for defenses is that they should cost at *most* half as much as the attack.

 

If the attack is rare, the ratio increases.

 

Thus 1 point of flash defense protects against 5 points of flash, etc.

 

So it sounds good to me. I certainly wouldn't approve of a defense that is 1:1 under any conditions.

[prestidigitator]

Re: POWER DEFENSE Works 1-for-1 Against Negative ©SLs!?

 

The rule of thumb for defenses is that they should cost at *most* half as much as the attack.

 

If the attack is rare, the ratio increases.

 

Thus 1 point of flash defense protects against 5 points of flash, etc.

 

So it sounds good to me. I certainly wouldn't approve of a defense that is 1:1 under any conditions.

Flash Defense is an interesting point, but it seems that Power Defense already works against a whole host of Powers (while Flash Defense only works against one), and is much less effective against the other stuff it is specifically designed to counter.

 

If we assume an average (3.5 per die) Effect Roll for everything, Power Defense will counter approximately 1 Character Point worth of Dispel, 1.5 CPs of Cosmetic Transform or Suppress (I seem to recall Suppress as being 5 CP/die), 3 CPs of Minor Transform or Drain, and 4 CPs of Major Transform or Transfer. Those are (as best I recall--I might be missing something) the Powers that Power Defense is specifically designed to stop and explicitly called out as countering.

[prestidigitator]

Re: POWER DEFENSE Works 1-for-1 Against Negative ©SLs!?

 

It just seems like this rule makes Negative ©SLs completely pointless, especially in a superheroic game where so many characters are likely to have at least a few points of PowD.

[MitchellS]

Re: POWER DEFENSE Works 1-for-1 Against Negative ©SLs!?

 

That's a great point. Flash defense needs to be purchased per sense, whereas power defense covers dispel, drain, suppress, tranfer, transformation, and now negative combat skill levels. That's way to much power for one one defense, IMO. We might be to the point where power defense needs to be divided by attacks as well.

[Fox1]

Re: POWER DEFENSE Works 1-for-1 Against Negative ©SLs!?

 

It just seems like this rule makes Negative ©SLs completely pointless' date=' especially in a superheroic game where so many characters are likely to have at least a few points of PowD.[/quote']

 

Depends upon the group not doesn't it?

 

In mine for example it works fine, there are very few characters with any power defense all (like all of one in the X-Men). Comes from modeling the campaign after the comics instead of gaming the system

 

More seriously, if there's a lot of power defense you're already used to buying high values of those types of attacks to get an effect through, why should this be any different?

[Fox1]

Re: POWER DEFENSE Works 1-for-1 Against Negative ©SLs!?

 

That's a great point. Flash defense needs to be purchased per sense' date=' whereas power defense covers dispel, drain, suppress, tranfer, transformation, and now negative combat skill levels. That's way to much power for one one defense, IMO. We might be to the point where power defense needs to be divided by attacks as well.[/quote']

 

The original point cost was likely selected not for effect, but as I noted based upon how often the attack as encountered. I believe the original designers intended that such attacks to be rare, one time in twenty or less.

 

Thus requiring a character who should have a excellent range of defenses against such powers to buy them multiple times is in effect requiring him to waste a lot of points.

 

Also the Flash Defense comparsion does not hold. A character generally only needs to protect his most important sense from being flashed- not all of them.

[prestidigitator]

Re: POWER DEFENSE Works 1-for-1 Against Negative ©SLs!?

 

The original point cost was likely selected not for effect, but as I noted based upon how often the attack as encountered. I believe the original designers intended that such attacks to be rare, one time in twenty or less.

 

Thus requiring a character who should have a excellent range of defenses against such powers to buy them multiple times is in effect requiring him to waste a lot of points.

 

Also the Flash Defense comparsion does not hold. A character generally only needs to protect his most important sense from being flashed- not all of them.

Maybe it's just our tendency of late to use a lot more Drains and such things. They seem to pop all over the place as an answer to something. Has that changed, or is it just my recollection that is warped? Are they just the things that have become interesting to us who are so used to HAs, KAs, EBs, etc., that we can now manage them in our sleep? Has the game system somehow evolved in a way that encourages these attacks more?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: POWER DEFENSE Works 1-for-1 Against Negative ©SLs!?

 

Yes, I posted several questions to Steve on this subject in regards to the original write up of Dan Simon's character Blackjack in my Millennial Men campaign. The character is a probability manipulator, and the original write up was strongly based around NSL's

 

At the time I did offer to House Rule that to every 5 points of PowDef would stop 1 NSL, but Dan preferred to drop it the idea entirely and thus we rebuilt the character.

 

We went a different direction with the re-write, but some vestige of the original power remained in the form of a selective Change Environment with OCV and DCV penaltys.

[Fox1]

Re: POWER DEFENSE Works 1-for-1 Against Negative ©SLs!?

 

Maybe it's just our tendency of late to use a lot more Drains and such things. They seem to pop all over the place as an answer to something. Has that changed' date=' or is it just my recollection that is warped? Are they just the things that have become interesting to us who are so used to HAs, KAs, EBs, etc., that we can now manage them in our sleep? Has the game system somehow evolved in a way that encourages these attacks more? [/quote']

 

 

It likely comes from two sources:

 

First, the Company.

 

The published material certain has changed. Power levels are up, exotic attacks and builds are far more common.

 

It's almost like HERO System is in a Arms Race with itself. Viper can't be more of a wimp than DEMON which can't be outdone by Genocide so everyone needs exotic attacks and on and up we go...

 

The official Champions products are beginning to remind me of D&D, they don't represent the comics anymore- they represent themselves and HERO System.

 

Pity IMO.

 

 

Second, the players

 

Players like to be special. They don't like to be damaged. This means that they'll reach for exotic attacks and as many defenses as possible.

 

Unless the GM checks that reach, you get an Arms Race within the campaign. The final result is that no one is special, and the attacks from NPC are still brought to a power level that they have their needed effect for the storyline in any case.

 

Beh.

[prestidigitator]

Re: POWER DEFENSE Works 1-for-1 Against Negative ©SLs!?

 

It likely comes from two sources:

 

First, the Company.

 

The published material certain has changed. Power levels are up, exotic attacks and builds are far more common.

 

It's almost like HERO System is in a Arms Race with itself. Viper can't be more of a wimp than DEMON which can't be outdone by Genocide so everyone needs exotic attacks and on and up we go...

 

The official Champions products are beginning to remind me of D&D, they don't represent the comics anymore- they represent themselves and HERO System.

 

Pity IMO.

 

 

Second, the players

 

Players like to be special. They don't like to be damaged. This means that they'll reach for exotic attacks and as many defenses as possible.

 

Unless the GM checks that reach, you get an Arms Race within the campaign. The final result is that no one is special, and the attacks from NPC are still brought to a power level that they have their needed effect for the storyline in any case.

 

Beh.

Perhaps. I also think that there are a lot of powers in other systems, literature, or inspired by nature (poisons, etc.) that we seem unable to model using anything but Adjustment Powers/Transforms. Is this a deficiency of the system, or should we expect this and start adjusting other things to account for a natural increase in the use of these Powers (such as changing Power Defense in some way; making it more expensive, breaking it up, etc.)? I'm not sure of the answer myself.

[Trebuchet]

Re: POWER DEFENSE Works 1-for-1 Against Negative ©SLs!?

 

Unless the GM checks that reach' date=' you get an Arms Race within the campaign. The final result is that no one is special, and the attacks from NPC are still brought to a power level that they have their needed effect for the storyline in any case.[/quote']I think that's very campaign-dependent. Only 2 of the 8 PCs in our team have any Power Defense. Only 2 have Flash Defense (not the same 2). Arms races take two sides.

 

If Drains and other Adjusting Powers become common, the defenses will become more so as well. They're not common in the comics, so they're Power Defense is rare iun comics too.

[prestidigitator]

Re: POWER DEFENSE Works 1-for-1 Against Negative ©SLs!?

 

I think that's very campaign-dependent. Only 2 of the 8 PCs in our team have any Power Defense. Only 2 have Flash Defense (not the same 2). Arms races take two sides.

 

If Drains and other Adjusting Powers become common, the defenses will become more so as well. They're not common in the comics, so they're Power Defense is rare iun comics too.

That's interesting. Do you think they are more common in other genres, so that the more Hero expands into a general gaming system, the more these uncommon attacks are going to have an influence?

[Fox1]

Re: POWER DEFENSE Works 1-for-1 Against Negative ©SLs!?

 

Perhaps. I also think that there are a lot of powers in other systems' date=' literature, or inspired by nature (poisons, etc.) that we seem unable to model using anything but Adjustment Powers/Transforms. .[/quote']

 

I don't use baseline adjustment powers for those types of effects, although I will note they are still uncommon in my campaigns. Instead I toss limits or advantages on them to move then to the correct defense/SPX.

 

For example, I'd buy a DEX drain poison with NND - defense equals proper immunity or CON Roll made by -X. That bypasses the whole Power Defense issue and makes it a different critter completely.

 

 

Edit: BTW, I consider the above NND version of DEX drain to be a LIMIT and not a normal NND Advantage. By default I'd consider the standard power to be a AVLD, hence I'd apply a -1/2 limit to the Drain to change it to this poison based form.

 

 

 

Is this a deficiency of the system, or should we expect this and start adjusting other things to account for a natural increase in the use of these Powers (such as changing Power Defense in some way; making it more expensive, breaking it up, etc.)?

 

The rulebook already suggests that you should adjust the costs of powers that are more or less useful than normal in your campaign.

[Trebuchet]

Re: POWER DEFENSE Works 1-for-1 Against Negative ©SLs!?

 

That's interesting. Do you think they are more common in other genres' date=' so that the more Hero expands into a general gaming system, the more these uncommon attacks are going to have an influence?[/quote']More common in other genres than supers? Perhaps, if you include drugs and the like. Knockout drops and darts are staples of heroic fiction; as are various medicinal effects. I guess it's SFX-dependent to a large extent. I can't recall ever seeing a villain with Drain or Transfer in heroic fiction with an sfx of a "Drain Field." (It's not very common in the superhero comics either.)

 

Drains, Flashes, and the like are the part of doing business in a superhero world, just like taking Stun and occasional BODY. If you make your superheroes (or villains) invulnerable to more conventional attacks, then the exotic attacks are inevitably going to become less exotic. People want to be effective in combat, and they hate being constantly hampered by specific oddball attacks. If Dr. Drain shows up once in a blue moon, it's no big deal. But if Dr. Drain and his Transfer Gang are sucking the juice out of the heroes every third adventure, the heroes are going to respond with Power Defense.

 

I think it has to depend on character concept to some degree as well. I cannot think of a rationale that would allow my specific MA to get Power Defense. It just doesn't fit her concept; she's not a "ki" master or the like. OTOH, it already makes perfect sense for our team's PA guy and our "mystic" MA..

 

I personally dislike the game mechanics of Drains and other similar Powers as written in Hero; I believe they should be far more sfx-dependent rather than mechanics-dependent. IOW, spectres Drain "life energy" rather than BODY; and if they can't touch the hero due to his armor or the like they shouldn't be able to drain his life force despite having bought Drain. But that's a whole 'nother topic.

[Fox1]

Re: POWER DEFENSE Works 1-for-1 Against Negative ©SLs!?

 

IOW' date=' spectres Drain "life energy" rather than BODY; and if they can't touch the hero due to his armor or the like they shouldn't be able to drain his life force despite having bought Drain. [/quote']

 

That's called a limit.

 

I can't imagine a reason you wouldn't apply it if you think it applies.

[Black Rose]

Re: POWER DEFENSE Works 1-for-1 Against Negative ©SLs!?

 

It likely comes from two sources:

 

First, the Company.

 

The published material certain has changed. Power levels are up, exotic attacks and builds are far more common.

 

It's almost like HERO System is in a Arms Race with itself. Viper can't be more of a wimp than DEMON which can't be outdone by Genocide so everyone needs exotic attacks and on and up we go...

 

The official Champions products are beginning to remind me of D&D, they don't represent the comics anymore- they represent themselves and HERO System.

 

Pity IMO.

 

Well, you're right that Champions doesn't represent the comics anymore - or at least, not any specific "style" or "era". There's simply too much there, it's almost like late Silver mixed with Bronze and a few flakes of Iron and Rust (well, okay, maybe not so much the Iron and Rust, I just liked the turn of phrase ). If I were going to run Champions, I certainly wouldn't use all of it. And I don't think Steve Long intended that anyway. Use the bits you want and ditch the rest. It's not like the Universe will fall apart if there's no DEMON and VIPER is pretty much COBRA only somebody didn't like the lawsuits and half of the bad guys get the X-Men Evolution treatment and are in their late teens or early twenties....

 

Dang, that almost sounds like a cool campaign - or at least a six-to-eight episode anime miniseries.

 

To be honest, I don't read enough of the "right" comics to notice that Champions doesn't represent - I'm more concerned with the ability to replicate Antarctic Press's lines and various anime titles than Just-Us League or Revengers Baja. If I was so enamored of those forms, I'd probably use DC Heroes or Marvel Super Heroes. But I like my own imagination better, so I use HERO.

 

Second' date=' the players[/i']

 

Players like to be special. They don't like to be damaged. This means that they'll reach for exotic attacks and as many defenses as possible.

 

Unless the GM checks that reach, you get an Arms Race within the campaign. The final result is that no one is special, and the attacks from NPC are still brought to a power level that they have their needed effect for the storyline in any case.

 

Beh.

 

While I would agree that some people don't like to have their characters suffer any damage, I think the more experienced (I hesitate to say better) among us prefer simply to not have their characters punk'd. I don't mind a good fight with some hard blows traded. I don't even mind going up against a more powerful foe and getting my ass handed to me... provided I'm doing something to help the team succeed. I just don't want to be slapped aside by some nifty-wifty attack that, if I had some little bit o' defence, couldn't do jack. Now, I don't think everyone should have every defence "just cuz", but there is usually some legitimacy for a minor level of defence that you may not have had to start with (I'm mostly thinking Flash Defence here, though arguments could be made for certain SFX of Power Def). But that, IMO, is where the GM comes in and says "Don't you think you're munchkining out a bit? Cause I do. Denied."

[Trebuchet]

Re: POWER DEFENSE Works 1-for-1 Against Negative ©SLs!?

 

While I would agree that some people don't like to have their characters suffer any damage' date=' I think the more experienced (I hesitate to say [i']better[/i]) among us prefer simply to not have their characters punk'd. I don't mind a good fight with some hard blows traded. I don't even mind going up against a more powerful foe and getting my ass handed to me... provided I'm doing something to help the team succeed. I just don't want to be slapped aside by some nifty-wifty attack that, if I had some little bit o' defence, couldn't do jack. Now, I don't think everyone should have every defence "just cuz", but there is usually some legitimacy for a minor level of defence that you may not have had to start with (I'm mostly thinking Flash Defence here, though arguments could be made for certain SFX of Power Def). But that, IMO, is where the GM comes in and says "Don't you think you're munchkining out a bit? Cause I do. Denied."

Well said. I agree 100%.

 

There are certain unusual attacks (Flash, mental attacks) which are fairly easy to justify purchasing the appropriate defenses if the attacks are encountered relatively frequently. Polarized goggles and mental discipline can plausibly provide a certain level of defenses against these attacks (I'm pretty certain every member of the X-Men has Mental Defense; it's pretty easy to explain when they have powerful mentalists to train against.) But other exotic attacks, such as Drains, become a lot harder to rationalize for most characters because the attacks differ so widely in sfx. A BODY Drain might be blooddrinking by a vampire, soul sucking by a demon, toxic drugs, an "anti-life" field, lethal radiation, and endless other possibilities.

 

That's why I wish all Adjustment Powers were sfx-specific, and so too should their defenses be, just as Missile Deflection is dependent on the sfx of the attack it's deflecting rather than the fact it's an EB or RKA. It costs more to deflect lasers than bullets. Why is that, when it didn't cost the attacker more to buy his RKA as a laser rather than as a slug thrower?

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: POWER DEFENSE Works 1-for-1 Against Negative ©SLs!?

 

It costs more to deflect lasers than bullets. Why is that' date=' when it didn't cost the attacker more to buy his RKA as a laser rather than as a slug thrower?[/quote']

 

Can you believe that, in all the years I've been GMing HERO, that never struck me before?!?

 

Wow...

[Fox1]

Re: POWER DEFENSE Works 1-for-1 Against Negative ©SLs!?

 

I just don't want to be slapped aside by some nifty-wifty attack that, if I had some little bit o' defence, couldn't do jack.

 

That's not a system problem, that's a issue between you, your GM, and your desired gaming style. If you don't want it, why in the world put it in the game and then avoid it by spenting points on something that you've in effect just removed from the game? Strikes me as a waste.

 

On the other hand, I for LIKE being whacked by a nifty-wifty attack- it's genre, it results in fun storylines, and it's great to work around that attack in the end by using smart tactics.

 

 

 

But that, IMO, is where the GM comes in and says "Don't you think you're munchkining out a bit? Cause I do. Denied."

 

GMs can and should do just that. I think that GMs need more backbone in general.

 

But he's fighting uphill slightly because the official HERO game products themselves are "munchkining out a bit".

[Fox1]

Re: POWER DEFENSE Works 1-for-1 Against Negative ©SLs!?

 

A BODY Drain might be blooddrinking by a vampire' date=' soul sucking by a demon, toxic drugs, an "anti-life" field, lethal radiation, and endless other possibilities. [/quote']

 

No one seems to have noticed, so I'll say it again.

 

You're creating your own problem here.

 

 

Bloodingdrinking- shouldn't be a Body drain. It should be NND attack- defense is not being reduced to DCV 0 (typical for the classic blooddrink who must restrain the victim first.

 

Toxic Drugs- Should again not be a Body Drain, it should be an NND with defense = immunity. Depending upon delivery other defense come to mind (i.e. not take body from a combo Kill Attack that injects the posion).

 

 

And so on...

 

Body DRAIN is really MAYBE only suited for two of the attacks in your list above soul-sucking and anti-life field. Depending upon exactly how the power works- it may not be the right power even then. Even assuming it is, IMO Power Defense should work against both of those.

[prestidigitator]

Re: POWER DEFENSE Works 1-for-1 Against Negative ©SLs!?

 

No one seems to have noticed, so I'll say it again.

 

You're creating your own problem here.

 

 

Bloodingdrinking- shouldn't be a Body drain. It should be NND attack- defense is not being reduced to DCV 0 (typical for the classic blooddrink who must restrain the victim first.

 

Toxic Drugs- Should again not be a Body Drain, it should be an NND with defense = immunity. Depending upon delivery other defense come to mind (i.e. not take body from a combo Kill Attack that injects the posion).

 

 

And so on...

 

Body DRAIN is really MAYBE only suited for two of the attacks in your list above soul-sucking and anti-life field. Depending upon exactly how the power works- it may not be the right power even then. Even assuming it is, IMO Power Defense should work against both of those.

Huh. Well, I do tend to make pretty good use of NND and AVLD as well. Sometimes I can't really think of a better defense to switch to for AVLD, or a good canceller for NND, though, and I am content to leave my Drain (or whatever) at base value and acting against Power Defense. Sometimes I even think Power Defense is the best thing to use for the SFX; often my fantasy magic does this, as I think of Power Defense as (in good part) like, "magic resistance."

 

I will admit that, on top of SFX, sometimes using NND/AVLD just makes the darn thing too expensive. If I am trying to come up with a Power that fits a certain Active Point limit, and I think it makes sense for it to have a certain level of effect, the above Advantages may just make it waaaay to expensive. I've always thought AVLD should probably be +1, just like NND. Unless you already know about a NND attack and specifically prepare for it, it is not horribly likely you are going to have the defense at hand to utilize; I'd say it is more likely that--unprepared--you are going to have enough of the correct form of defense to make an AVLD pretty ineffective. I'm a little reticent about just changing the value, though, as I haven't really play-tested it for balance (and this is probably mostly because it is too expensive so I tend to build things off of NND... ).

 

That said, I think I do like your idea of considering Adjustments to already be AVLD, and simply applying a Limitation for the difference (though I might just make it a -0 due to the above uncertainties and because I tend to err on the side of more expensive). Perhaps I will even make, "AVLD," a Limitation if the defense is a lot more common than the usual one. Again I am a bit hesitant to just go with the blanket change though; I guess I'm not altogether certain where my unease over this is coming from.

[Black Rose]

Re: POWER DEFENSE Works 1-for-1 Against Negative ©SLs!?

 

Well said. I agree 100%.

 

There are certain unusual attacks (Flash, mental attacks) which are fairly easy to justify purchasing the appropriate defenses if the attacks are encountered relatively frequently. Polarized goggles and mental discipline can plausibly provide a certain level of defenses against these attacks (I'm pretty certain every member of the X-Men has Mental Defense; it's pretty easy to explain when they have powerful mentalists to train against.) But other exotic attacks, such as Drains, become a lot harder to rationalize for most characters because the attacks differ so widely in sfx. A BODY Drain might be blooddrinking by a vampire, soul sucking by a demon, toxic drugs, an "anti-life" field, lethal radiation, and endless other possibilities.

 

I completely agree, Treb. An awful lot of improvements can be justified by simply saying "I'm practicing with Joe over here." You can get better at just about anything that way, not to mention KS or PS Instructor.

 

That's why I wish all Adjustment Powers were sfx-specific, and so too should their defenses be, just as Missile Deflection is dependent on the sfx of the attack it's deflecting rather than the fact it's an EB or RKA. It costs more to deflect lasers than bullets. Why is that, when it didn't cost the attacker more to buy his RKA as a laser rather than as a slug thrower?

 

Again, I completely agree. There are quite a few powers which should be, IMO, rather strictly limited by SFX; the first one being Power Defense, followed by all the Adjustment Powers.

 

And Dr Anomaly is right; that never occured to me, either. Dang, man.

[Silbeg]

Re: POWER DEFENSE Works 1-for-1 Against Negative ©SLs!?

 

I think that's very campaign-dependent. Only 2 of the 8 PCs in our team have any Power Defense. Only 2 have Flash Defense (not the same 2). Arms races take two sides.

 

If Drains and other Adjusting Powers become common, the defenses will become more so as well. They're not common in the comics, so they're Power Defense is rare iun comics too.

 

Interesting.... Didn't think about this until I checked my PC's team... where an astounding 0 out of 7 have Power DEF... I believe maybe one of the retired PCs had it (there have been about 6-8 of these).

 

Drains are reasonably uncommon, but they do occur. Maybe I'll have to throw more of them around...

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: POWER DEFENSE Works 1-for-1 Against Negative ©SLs!?

 

Interesting.... Didn't think about this until I checked my PC's team... where an astounding 0 out of 7 have Power DEF... I believe maybe one of the retired PCs had it (there have been about 6-8 of these).

 

Drains are reasonably uncommon, but they do occur. Maybe I'll have to throw more of them around...

And for the record, out of a team of 5, two of us can have Power Def at a moment's notice, if needed. (One is a multiformer, and one of those forms has PDef, the other is a powered-armor type with a couple of multipowers. When all his various multis are switched to "Defense Mode" he's darn near indestructible. And makes a dandy bit of cover for the less-armored among us. Oh, his "Defense Mode" also includes 10 pts of PDef as part of his multi-ply force field array. )