Your campaigns campaign limits.

[Gary]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

Because STR is not the only attribute of a brick. Significantly higher defenses' date=' CON, REC, and STUN are also part of the brick [i']schtick[/i]. It's the ability to take a hit that best defines a brick. You are (quite literally) the only player or GM I've ever seen in 22+ years of playing Champions who defines a brick solely by high STR. That is certainly not how a brick is defined in Champions 5e.

 

I've seen plenty of MAs and EBs who deliver the same number of damage dice per hit as a brick; and even EBs with the same PD or ED as a brick. A fast and agile character with a high STR but the same defenses as a speedster or MA is not a brick; but rather a variant of one of those archetypes.

 

 

Ok, I'll let the MA have the exact same Con as the brick (since it costs him the same). The brick will have significantly higher PD, Rec, and Stun just from Str.

 

I betcha the Brick would still be better than the MA even if the MA has the same Con.

 

Since the discussion is on whether Str is too cheap (or alternatively that it gives too much bang for the buck), I feel fully justified in focusing on Str in this comparison.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

4 PD is 2 CP better than 2 PD.

Now your criteria for comparison is Character Points? How did that come about; and on what basis is it a valid scale for comparison? On a 350 point character 4 PD is only 0.57% better than 2 PD. That's hardly enough to get excited about IMO.

[Gary]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

Exactly. Incremental. It's a sliding scale, where small amounts don't help much (KO'd but not dead is still KO'd but not dead.), and large amounts are hugely better. (Take someone with enough defenses to not be stunned by all 4's on any attack in the campaign. Then add 20 points. 10 PD/ED are probably going to have a MUCH bigger impact than throwing those points at other areas, simply because it takes them over the top into 'no, really, we can't take him down'. Even the normally useful 50% noresistant damage reduction would be less good. Whereas adding those 10 PD/ED to an 8 PD/ED martial artist is probably going to STILL leave him stunned by any attack that hits him)

 

Each point of PD makes the previous one better.

 

 

Each point of PD stops exactly 1 pt of damage. And the 18 PD/ED MA will laugh at the 6d6 area effect attack and be much better off vs the 8d6 explosion or the 8d6 Spread EB. Unlike the 8 PD/ED MA. Those 10 pts have a heck of a value.

[Gary]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

Extremely high AND Extremely low. There are viable characters who could add 8pts of PD/ED without decreasing (in any really significant way) the world of hurt they endure when they get hit.

 

If you're buying it up over 12, you should probably go to about 24 or so, otherwise you're not getting that much mileage out of it. Hero rewards being slightly above average immensely, while not screwing massively below average that much more than 'merely' below average.

 

 

You're ignoring the fact that high DCV characters tend to be hit by lower than campaign average attacks such as Area Effects, Explosions, and Spread attacks.

[Gary]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

Now your criteria for comparison is Character Points? How did that come about; and on what basis is it a valid scale for comparison? On a 350 point character 4 PD is only 0.57% better than 2 PD. That's hardly enough to get excited about IMO.

 

 

That's a 2 or 4 PD increment. Virtually no Champions characters actually has that low of a defense in total.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

A MA isn't JUST high Dex. He presumably also has lots of martial maneuvers and DCs.

 

If Str wasn't such an efficient purchase, then it would be the MA 'stealing' the brick's thunder. The reason why it's the brick stealing the MA's thunder is because of the efficiency of Str which gives a good attack and at the same time increases movement and durability. This gives the brick more points to spend on other stuff.

 

No... it's not about the points.

 

In a pointless game, where you can buy as much of anything as you wanted to, FOR FREE, a character who was a brick (invulnerable, superstrong) AND was amazingly fast and good at fighting (SPD, DEX) would steal the thunder of a character who was just a Martial Artist (SPD, DEX).

 

 

And that would be a problem.

 

 

As Trebuchet noted, the reverse would ALSO be a problem.

 

 

Assuming 'brick powers' and 'martial artist powers' cost exactly the same. If a character took both, they would steal ANY other bricks combat thunder AND any other martial artists combat thunder.

 

Even if the others also had significant non-combat schticks, it would be unfair. Being the World's Greatest Detective is nice, but Champions combats take a long time - longer than the non-combat shininess.

 

Alternatively, every MA/Brick character could end up being both archetypes. Woo hoo! Now they all look alike! That was fun!

 

Not points. Parties.

[Gary]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

Who? Wonder Woman?

 

I'm "admitting" there are characters who are both Bricks and Martial Artists, which isn't actually a concession...

 

They're still not as good at being Martial Artists as the actual Martial Artists, which is the actual point which you're trying to obfuscate.

 

 

Please show me anywhere where I said that an agile brick was as good a Martial Artist as an actual Martial Artist.

 

Otherwise I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

Ok, I'll let the MA have the exact same Con as the brick (since it costs him the same). The brick will have significantly higher PD, Rec, and Stun just from Str.

 

I betcha the Brick would still be better than the MA even if the MA has the same Con.

Hardly. The MA would have spent those points the brick spent on STR on DEX and SPD; meaning he's spent 50+ more points on not getting hit. And since he'll get hit less often, he doesn't need the same kind of CON either, so all that CON would be a waste of points. More DEX and SPD there too. Our MA will always be faster than your brick.

 

Since the discussion is on whether Str is too cheap (or alternatively that it gives too much bang for the buck), I feel fully justified in focusing on Str in this comparison.

And you'd still be 100% wrong; as you have been throughout this entire thread. STR is neither too cheap nor too expensive. It's priced entirely properly with regard to its effectiveness.

[Gary]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

No... it's not about the points.

 

In a pointless game, where you can buy as much of anything as you wanted to, FOR FREE, a character who was a brick (invulnerable, superstrong) AND was amazingly fast and good at fighting (SPD, DEX) would steal the thunder of a character who was just a Martial Artist (SPD, DEX).

 

 

And that would be a problem.

 

 

As Trebuchet noted, the reverse would ALSO be a problem.

 

 

Assuming 'brick powers' and 'martial artist powers' cost exactly the same. If a character took both, they would steal ANY other bricks combat thunder AND any other martial artists combat thunder.

 

Even if the others also had significant non-combat schticks, it would be unfair. Being the World's Greatest Detective is nice, but Champions combats take a long time - longer than the non-combat shininess.

 

Alternatively, every MA/Brick character could end up being both archetypes. Woo hoo! Now they all look alike! That was fun!

 

Not points. Parties.

 

 

Since we're not dealing with an infinite point universe, I'm not sure exactly what your point is.

[Gary]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

Hardly. The MA would have spent those points the brick spent on STR on DEX and SPD; meaning he's spent 50+ more points on not getting hit. And since he'll get hit less often' date=' he doesn't need the same kind of CON either, so all that CON would be a waste of points. More DEX and SPD there too. Our MA will always be faster than your brick.[/quote']

 

And now he has no attack at all. There's no reason for the MA to be faster than the brick since the brick can purchase Dex/Spd at exactly the same price as the MA.

 

And you'd still be 100% wrong; as you have been throughout this entire thread. STR is neither too cheap nor too expensive. It's priced entirely properly with regard to its effectiveness.

 

 

This is not the case since you've stated already that a Brick with the same Dex/Spd as a MA will overshadow him.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

That's a 2 or 4 PD increment. Virtually no Champions characters actually has that low of a defense in total.

You were the one who decided CP were a valid basis for comparison; not I. 12 PD is still only 0.57% "better" than 10 PD by your method. So is CP really a useful method for character comparison? (I think we all know the answer to that.)

[Gary]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

You were the one who decided CP were a valid basis for comparison; not I. 12 PD is still only 0.57% "better" than 10 PD by your method. So is CP really a useful method for character comparison? (I think we all know the answer to that.)

 

 

12 PD is only .57% better than 10 PD?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

This is not the case since you've stated already that a Brick with the same Dex/Spd as a MA will overshadow him.

I've already illustrated earlier in this thread how an MA built with identical SPD & DEX to your hypothetical brick who spends the same points on Martial Maneuvers and DCs will defeat a brick built solely with the same amount of character points in STR. The added DCV/OCV from the martial maneuvers more than makes up for the difference in PD and Stun. So your erronious supposition about the superior efficiency of STR has already been clearly disproven. Perhaps you should go back and actually read it this time?

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

You're ignoring the fact that high DCV characters tend to be hit by lower than campaign average attacks such as Area Effects, Explosions, and Spread attacks.

 

Each point of PD stops exactly 1 pt of damage. And the 18 PD/ED MA will laugh at the 6d6 area effect attack and be much better off vs the 8d6 explosion or the 8d6 Spread EB. Unlike the 8 PD/ED MA. Those 10 pts have a heck of a value.

 

And an extra 10/10 will take them to 'virtual invulnerability' range, where the first attack is able to be ignored, and the others are "laughable".

 

Ooh. But why not add another 10/10? That means lucky hits by full power attacks are poor!

 

And another 10/10! Screw Haymakers!

 

You really are accepting the idea of being hit. 'tis far better to focus on NOT getting hit, then letting the GM paste you once or twice, make them feel bad about it, then resume not being able to be hit. Taking hits and remaining standing is a good way to get dogpiled.

 

 

Now, if you're NOT gaming the system, 18/18 guy needs to dodge/DFC the same attacks anyway, since he doesn't know exactly how many dice are coming down anyway. Villains don't play by the PC guidelines.

 

 

10/10 costs 20, incidently. 30 if you want it resistant. Not 10.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

12 PD is only .57% better than 10 PD?

Yes, that was my reaction to your assertation that we should use CP as a basis for comparison. I'm glad you've finally come to realize how inane that was.

[Gary]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

I've already illustrated earlier in this thread how an MA built with identical SPD & DEX to your hypothetical brick who spends the same points on Martial Maneuvers and DCs will defeat a brick built solely with the same amount of character points in STR. The added DCV/OCV from the martial maneuvers more than makes up for the difference in PD and Stun. So your erronious supposition about the superior efficiency of STR has already been clearly disproven. Perhaps you should go back and actually read it this time?

 

 

No, your example earlier had the MA with higher Dex/Spd than the brick.

 

Besides, my example throughout this thread has been a brick with base level MA.

[Gary]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

And an extra 10/10 will take them to 'virtual invulnerability' range, where the first attack is able to be ignored, and the others are "laughable".

 

Ooh. But why not add another 10/10? That means lucky hits by full power attacks are poor!

 

And another 10/10! Screw Haymakers!

 

 

Exactly! Every pt of defense is valuable! Thanks for agreeing.

 

 

 

You really are accepting the idea of being hit. 'tis far better to focus on NOT getting hit, then letting the GM paste you once or twice, make them feel bad about it, then resume not being able to be hit. Taking hits and remaining standing is a good way to get dogpiled.

 

 

It's not a matter of accepting the idea of being hit. It's the fact that it's inevitable that you'll be hit with any halfway decent GM. I don't know what sort of weird campaign you play in where the villains never Spread and never use area effects or explosions.

 

 

Now, if you're NOT gaming the system, 18/18 guy needs to dodge/DFC the same attacks anyway, since he doesn't know exactly how many dice are coming down anyway. Villains don't play by the PC guidelines.

 

 

10/10 costs 20, incidently. 30 if you want it resistant. Not 10.

 

 

 

YOU were the one who was arguing that 18 PD/ED wasn't significantly superior to 8 PD/ED.

 

Now when that has been proven false, you seem to want to change the subject.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

Since we're not dealing with an infinite point universe' date=' I'm not sure exactly what your point is.[/quote']

 

Because Treb is not talking about points when he says high DEX bricks are a problem.

 

Points are not the issue.

 

Niche. Not points. Niche

 

Niche.

 

Niche.

 

Niche.

 

Niche.

 

Martial Artists are supposed to have a higher DEX than everyone else. If they don't, there is a problem.

 

IF character A and B on the same team are exactly tbe same, but A has higher STR and Defenses, and there are NO OTHER DIFFEREENCES, A is a problem.

 

This could due to a thousand and one different reasons, but if it comes about, there is a problem.

 

Maybe A's player is cheating.

Maybe A's player found a rules loophole.

Maybe A has an extra 200 experience lying around from 2nd edition.

Maybe B bought 'SS: [some type of beetle anatomy]' fifty different times for fifty different species.

Maybe B is just a total newbie and didn't take any disadvantages.

 

 

It does not have to be 'STR is underpriced' that is the reason for why the brick is 'too fast'.

 

 

Incidently, I believe the PRECISE problem Treb was referring to was:

 

Campaign has maximum Defenses X.

Maximum damage classes Y

Maximum DEX/CV Z

Maximum Speed Ublork

 

Brick has X, Y, Z and Ublork.

Martial Artist has Y, Z, and Ublork.

 

They then both have a lot of points left over, which they spend on various things.

 

The brick is now strictly superior in combat, because the Martial Artist wasn't allowed to spend as much on combat power.

 

 

The Martial Artist might even be a 'better' character, overall, since he spent those points that didn't go into defense on something else... but the brick is an out and out better fighter, because of the arbitrary cap.

 

Even if MA and STR were balanced PERFECTLY, in a different rules system designed by you, where everything was worth exactly what it cost. If one character maxes out DEF and the other doesn't, the DEF maxer will be better at fighting.

[Gary]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

Yes' date=' that was my reaction to your assertation that we should use CP as a basis for comparison. I'm glad you've finally come to realize how inane that was. [/quote']

 

 

CP is very useful since it tells us how much bang for the buck we're getting.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

Exactly! Every pt of defense is valuable! Thanks for agreeing.

 

No - every point makes the next point more enticing. It's the cumulative effect.

 

Adding 20 points to huge amounts doesn't help much. Adding it to tiny amoutns doesn't help much either.

 

18 DEF guy would be better off as 28 DEF guy... but 8 DEF guy has 40 poitns more to spend on other stuff than 28 DEF guy, which might be a better call, since that's 10 DEX and 2 SPD (for example).

 

It's not a matter of accepting the idea of being hit. It's the fact that it's inevitable that you'll be hit with any halfway decent GM. I don't know what sort of weird campaign you play in where the villains never Spread and never use area effects or explosions.

 

Oh, you get hit. You also get hit MORE if one hit doesn't stun/ko you.

 

If you're gaming the system - any system - you don't want to be the tall plant. They get cut down.

 

I don't know what weird game you play where dodges, DFC's, and other similiar things don't work...

 

YOU were the one who was arguing that 18 PD/ED wasn't significantly superior to 8 PD/ED.

 

Now when that has been proven false, you seem to want to change the subject.

 

Not at all. I'm staying my gruund...

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

Please show me anywhere where I said that an agile brick was as good a Martial Artist as an actual Martial Artist.

 

Otherwise I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth.

 

Yeesh. I never said that was what YOU were saying.

[Gary]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

Because Treb is not talking about points when he says high DEX bricks are a problem.

 

Points are not the issue.

 

Niche. Not points. Niche

 

Niche.

 

Niche.

 

Niche.

 

Niche.

 

Yes points.

 

Ja

 

Ja

 

Ja

 

Ja

 

Ja

 

Ja

 

 

Martial Artists are supposed to have a higher DEX than everyone else. If they don't, there is a problem.

 

Last I heard, this was Champions, not D20. Sorry, no character classes here.

 

 

IF character A and B on the same team are exactly tbe same, but A has higher STR and Defenses, and there are NO OTHER DIFFEREENCES, A is a problem.

 

This could due to a thousand and one different reasons, but if it comes about, there is a problem.

 

Maybe A's player is cheating.

Maybe A's player found a rules loophole.

Maybe A has an extra 200 experience lying around from 2nd edition.

Maybe B bought 'SS: [some type of beetle anatomy]' fifty different times for fifty different species.

Maybe B is just a total newbie and didn't take any disadvantages.

 

 

It does not have to be 'STR is underpriced' that is the reason for why the brick is 'too fast'.

 

All completely irrelevant since none of those factors have been even discussed in this thread. Stop bringing up Straw Men.

 

 

Incidently, I believe the PRECISE problem Treb was referring to was:

 

Campaign has maximum Defenses X.

Maximum damage classes Y

Maximum DEX/CV Z

Maximum Speed Ublork

 

Brick has X, Y, Z and Ublork.

Martial Artist has Y, Z, and Ublork.

 

They then both have a lot of points left over, which they spend on various things.

 

The brick is now strictly superior in combat, because the Martial Artist wasn't allowed to spend as much on combat power.

 

The Martial Artist might even be a 'better' character, overall, since he spent those points that didn't go into defense on something else... but the brick is an out and out better fighter, because of the arbitrary cap.

 

Even if MA and STR were balanced PERFECTLY, in a different rules system designed by you, where everything was worth exactly what it cost. If one character maxes out DEF and the other doesn't, the DEF maxer will be better at fighting.

 

 

 

They both have lots of points left over? Where the heck did that come from???

 

And what's to stop the MA from buying up his def up to X except for his budget? Who forbade the MA from buying up his Def? Other than the fact that the high Str character gets lots of PD just from Str which is a function of how efficient Str is.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

CP is very useful since it tells us how much bang for the buck we're getting.

 

You say this in the same breath as you claim STR is underpriced?

 

 

And you find no problems with that?

 

 

At least TRY to hold an internally consistent argument.

[Guest darthvegita666]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

CP is very useful since it tells us how much bang for the buck we're getting.

 

but i thought u said it ddint work because stregnth is underpriced so points werent useful

[Gary]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

No - every point makes the next point more enticing. It's the cumulative effect.

 

Adding 20 points to huge amounts doesn't help much. Adding it to tiny amoutns doesn't help much either.

 

18 DEF guy would be better off as 28 DEF guy... but 8 DEF guy has 40 poitns more to spend on other stuff than 28 DEF guy, which might be a better call, since that's 10 DEX and 2 SPD (for example).

 

 

8 PD will probably get you killed. And you might even get stunned from an area effect, explosion, or Spread attack. Certainly 2 of them will wipe you out.

 

 

Oh, you get hit. You also get hit MORE if one hit doesn't stun/ko you.

 

If you're gaming the system - any system - you don't want to be the tall plant. They get cut down.

 

I don't know what weird game you play where dodges, DFC's, and other similiar things don't work...

 

 

I don't know what weird game you play where you can dodge, DFC or other similar things every phase. Eventually there will be a phase where you'll have to take an action, or where a second attacker zaps you after a DFC.

 

 

Not at all. I'm staying my gruund...

 

 

You're still saying that 18 Def isn't significantly different than 8 Def???