Your campaigns campaign limits.

[Gary]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

but i thought u said it ddint work because stregnth is underpriced so points werent useful

 

 

And CP is one of the things that show us why Str is underpriced.

[Gary]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

You say this in the same breath as you claim STR is underpriced?

 

 

And you find no problems with that?

 

 

At least TRY to hold an internally consistent argument.

 

 

Since the subject was CP spent on Def, I'm not comparing different things. I was comparing apples to apples, Def to higher levels of Def.

[Gary]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

They're still not as good at being Martial Artists as the actual Martial Artists, which is the actual point which you're trying to obfuscate.

 

 

Yeesh. I never said that was what YOU were saying.

 

 

If you didn't say that was what I was saying, then what the heck was that 'obfuscate' comment about?

 

Geeze, that was only a few posts back and you can't keep track of it.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

Yes points.

 

Ja

 

Ja

 

Ja

 

Ja

 

Ja

 

Ja

 

 

 

 

Last I heard, this was Champions, not D20. Sorry, no character classes here.

 

Correction. No system built in ones.

 

If, however, someone wants to play a character with strengths and weaknesses relative to the rest of the group - you have to create one.

 

A "martial artist" is not the same thing as a Martial Artist. One is a SFX. The other IS a 'character class'. It is a character with Martial Arts, high SPD, high DEX, not so much in the way of defenses.

 

All completely irrelevant since none of those factors have been even discussed in this thread. Stop bringing up Straw Men.

 

Straw Men? Do you even understand the term?

A Straw Man would be me claiming your argument was somethign totally idiotic - like what you just did to me by saying that, actually.

 

I pointed out that a character might be strictly superior in combat to another for reasons UNRELATED TO THE POINTS. And I gave some examples of how.

 

Because, you see, you claimed that the mere existence of a Brick who out DEX'd and SPD'd a Martial Artist proved STR was undercosted.

 

It's called a _counterexample_. Counterexample disprove claims.

 

They both have lots of points left over? Where the heck did that come from???

 

And what's to stop the MA from buying up his def up to X except for his budget? Who forbade the MA from buying up his Def? Other than the fact that the high Str character gets lots of PD just from Str which is a function of how efficient Str is.

 

They both have points left over because that is WHY you impose campaign caps. So they don't have to spend every single point on combat abilities.

 

And why didn't he buy his DEF? CONCEPT.

 

He could have bought it up, in that example. After all, the system is perfectly balanced. But he doesn't want to. He wants the brick to sell down his DEX/SPD. Because he wants to play the fast yet fragile martial artist. Not some kind of invulnerable martial artist.

 

Get it?

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

If you didn't say that was what I was saying, then what the heck was that 'obfuscate' comment about?

 

Geeze, that was only a few posts back and you can't keep track of it.

 

The UBER dexy bricks comic book characters are not as good at the DEX/SPDy thing as the real MA types.

 

That was MY point. They might be DEXy, but they aren't the DEXyiest.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

8 PD will probably get you killed. And you might even get stunned from an area effect, explosion, or Spread attack. Certainly 2 of them will wipe you out.

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know what weird game you play where you can dodge, DFC or other similar things every phase. Eventually there will be a phase where you'll have to take an action, or where a second attacker zaps you after a DFC.

 

 

 

 

 

You're still saying that 18 Def isn't significantly different than 8 Def???

 

Different, yes. But the increase from 8 to 18 to 28 to 38 to 48 is not a straight ine in terms of efficiency. The exact shape of the efficiency graph is something rather complex...

 

But it does prove that 10 pts of DEF can meaningfully differ inside one campaign.

[Gary]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

Correction. No system built in ones.

 

If, however, someone wants to play a character with strengths and weaknesses relative to the rest of the group - you have to create one.

 

A "martial artist" is not the same thing as a Martial Artist. One is a SFX. The other IS a 'character class'. It is a character with Martial Arts, high SPD, high DEX, not so much in the way of defenses.

 

Thank you for playing D20. I'll play Hero thank you.

 

 

Straw Men? Do you even understand the term?

A Straw Man would be me claiming your argument was somethign totally idiotic - like what you just did to me by saying that, actually.

 

I pointed out that a character might be strictly superior in combat to another for reasons UNRELATED TO THE POINTS. And I gave some examples of how.

 

Because, you see, you claimed that the mere existence of a Brick who out DEX'd and SPD'd a Martial Artist proved STR was undercosted.

 

It's called a _counterexample_. Counterexample disprove claims.

 

 

The brick has the exact same Dex/Spd as the MA. In fact, it was intentionally done so that we have the same baseline to work with.

 

 

 

They both have points left over because that is WHY you impose campaign caps. So they don't have to spend every single point on combat abilities.

 

 

IME, most characters don't have enough points to reach campaign max in all categories unless the Caps are set extremely low, or if the character has overall broad limitations.

 

 

And why didn't he buy his DEF? CONCEPT.

 

He could have bought it up, in that example. After all, the system is perfectly balanced. But he doesn't want to. He wants the brick to sell down his DEX/SPD. Because he wants to play the fast yet fragile martial artist. Not some kind of invulnerable martial artist.

 

Get it?

 

 

Or lack of budget. He is starting in a big hole defensively compared to the brick after all.

 

And if CONCEPT is all important, then the other player has just as much right to play an agile brick. Heck, he could play a relatively low defense brick as well.

[Gary]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

The UBER dexy bricks comic book characters are not as good at the DEX/SPDy thing as the real MA types.

 

That was MY point. They might be DEXy, but they aren't the DEXyiest.

 

 

Since I never said they were, your 'obfuscate' comment was completely inappropriate.

[Gary]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

Different, yes. But the increase from 8 to 18 to 28 to 38 to 48 is not a straight ine in terms of efficiency. The exact shape of the efficiency graph is something rather complex...

 

But it does prove that 10 pts of DEF can meaningfully differ inside one campaign.

 

 

YOU were the one stating that 18 Def wasn't significantly better than 8 Def. This is obviously and manifestly false.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

YOU were the one stating that 18 Def wasn't significantly better than 8 Def. This is obviously and manifestly false.

 

Yes, that claim IS manifestly false.

 

I said that the value of those 10 extra in that case was different than in another case, even though the COST was the same.

 

 

Not that the extra 10 wasn't useful. Just that it might be more useful on a character with higher defenses, despite costing exactly the same.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

Since I never said they were' date=' your 'obfuscate' comment was completely inappropriate.[/quote']

 

No, it was completely appropriate. I am making clear, incisive critiques, You are then changing the subject and obfuscating the matter to try and look 'right'.

 

Oddly enough, that's what you were accusing ME of about twenty minutes ago.

[lemming]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

No, but at that point there would really be no purpose to playing an MA. The whole strategy behind martial artists' combat techiques is to avoid taking damage with superior SPD and DEX; whereas bricks can absorb that damage with superior tougness and hence don't need that kind of DEX and SPD. A brick with MA-class SPD and DEX would probably be severely unbalanced for most campaigns. Of course, a speedster or MA with brick-like STR and defenses would be just as unbalanced. There are archetypes for a reason; and one of the most important of those reasons is so players will not steal each other's thunder.

 

Limitations on brick DEX and/or SPD (or speedster/MA STR and defenses) don't need to be written; it can simply be an understanding that PCs will not step on each other's schticks.

For some time our group had a large group of bricks. There were a few games when we'd have eight characters with six bricks and two martial artists.

One of the MAs was slower than two of the bricks. However, the levels made up for the Dex/SPD IIRC.

 

Comic Book fast Brick that comes to mind is Wonder Man. Though he seemed to act like a target more times.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

Thank you for playing D20. I'll play Hero thank you.

 

So you admit you just are too stupid to get my point? Or is it more that admitting you understand it would make it impossible for you to 'win'?

 

The brick has the exact same Dex/Spd as the MA. In fact, it was intentionally done so that we have the same baseline to work with.

 

Sure, whatever. Same value. The point is, he doesn't have _less_.

 

 

IME, most characters don't have enough points to reach campaign max in all categories unless the Caps are set extremely low, or if the character has overall broad limitations.

 

They don't have to max out everything. Just the same things as another PC, and then one more.

 

Also, I rarely have trouble hitting all the applicable maximums. It's usually pretty easy, if you try. (I build a lot of "PC's" I never play just because I can).

 

Or lack of budget. He is starting in a big hole defensively compared to the brick after all.

 

And if CONCEPT is all important, then the other player has just as much right to play an agile brick. Heck, he could play a relatively low defense brick as well.

 

No, he is NOT starting in a hole. As I said, in this hypothetical case, he isn't. This hypothetical example takes place ten years in an alternate future, just after 6th edition was released. In that timeline, I suddenly saw the light, agreed with everything you ever said, and rallied the Hero Boards behind the one true way!

 

We then petitioned Steve to alter 6th edition to rebalance STR's cost to conform precisely with everything else in the game system, so that it was impossible to build an unbalanced character in that fashion.

 

As such, the only difference between the two characters is that the Martial Artist has 10 less PD and ED, and 20 more points in skills, perks and non-combat related powers.

 

Oh, and he uses martial arts instead of the (now much more expensive) STR.

 

 

And you do not have a right to play a character that interferes with someone esle having fun. You have a right to play a relatively agile brick (compared to other bricks), but the Martial Artist should be the fastest.

 

Because that's what HIS character does best. You can be the strongest, but you can't both be the fastest. That's a problem. That, right there, is what people thought was the problem with DEXy bricks.

 

Not that it was too cheap.

 

Do you get it NOW?

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

Whamme,

 

You have tried. I have read each post *both* of you have made. Gary lives for this stuff. He lives and breathes for his kind of forum combat. Unless you do my advice is to walk away and never open the thread again.

 

Hawksmoor

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

Whamme,

 

You have tried. I have read each post *both* of you have made. Gary lives for this stuff. He lives and breathes for his kind of forum combat. Unless you do my advice is to walk away and never open the thread again.

 

Hawksmoor

 

And in the same vein...

C'mon people....

This was SUPPOSED to be a thread about campaign limits. Something of a fair bit of interest to new HERO players and GM's. The same people that we keep inviting to the boards because they're such a friendly, helpful place, full of useful ideas and civil discourse.

Is it really worth proving all the "HERO is too complicated and the rules cause arguments" types right... just to increase your post count and count coup?

[Agent X]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

I just wish in all these arguments people would talk about what they've seen actually happen in a game. I understand Gary's argument. It just seems to fall apart when you actually play the game.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

Gary lives for this stuff. He lives and breathes for his kind of forum combat. Unless you do my advice is to walk away and never open the thread again.

That's probably the single most intelligent post in this entire thread.

 

Walk away, Whamme².

[Publius]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

And in the same vein...

C'mon people....

This was SUPPOSED to be a thread about campaign limits. Something of a fair bit of interest to new HERO players and GM's. The same people that we keep inviting to the boards because they're such a friendly, helpful place, full of useful ideas and civil discourse.

Is it really worth proving all the "HERO is too complicated and the rules cause arguments" types right... just to increase your post count and count coup?

Ditto. I actually enjoyed this thread at first when we were talking about limits on campaigns; there was a lot of stuff that I found useful, and I think others did too.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

That's probably the single most intelligent post in this entire thread.

 

Walk away, Whamme².

 

But I wanna be a Bi-Millenial Master again!

 

 

What I find odd is that apparently Gary and I stopped posting at exactly the same time.

 

It's really quite creepy. I stopped because I had an appointment at a friend's place. Dunno why he stopped.

[zornwil]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

Why do folks think high dex with high strength is ridiculous?

In the real world there is a connection. Stronger muscles move more quickly and all that. The concept of being "musclebound" to the point of hindering movement, etc. is far more myth than reality.

 

The Hulk has often been described as frighteningly quick. Remember the movie?

 

Thor can swat bullets out of the air with his hammer. He doesn't have to spin it. He can just put Mjolnir exactly where it needs to be to make the bullets stop.

 

Superman and Wonder Woman have low Dex?

 

Some of the talk on this thread amounts to creating "classes" of superheroes. I don't play Hero to play in class systems.

Well said.

 

Plus I like to get away from archetypes, and I find players respond well to open-ended character design, which comes into this picture in that, really, a character is a set of very many variables, some of them individually complex, some not, but the whole is extremely complex. Just because someone has high STR and DEX, it may mean nothing compared to other PCs, just depending on their configuration. Abuse is, as someone else (Markdoc I believe) indicated rightly, often worse with non-combat abilities, IMHO, and often even just unintended there. That's why in certain, particular abilities, I will spend more time hammering out the true SFX details and "how will you/do you want to play this?" so that we're really clear and I feel really comfortable.

 

As part of this approach, no, I don't use damage caps or other such guidelines. That can impose some hardships on newbie players, though at that point I've usually got some PCs down and so I can tell them the ranges and what might be missing, if that's what they're aiming for.

 

I don't mind playing with a cap, though.

[zornwil]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

I suspect most GMs place Dex/Spd limits on Bricks.

 

(snip)

Nah, our (ex-)brick did that himself. This is an example of good gaming, and a cornerstone to having a successful campaign/group. It's a good reason why most of this talk about caps and rules and all that stuff is in so many ways strictly academic.

[zornwil]

Re: Your campaigns campaign limits.

 

In lemming's game I have a mostly-martial artist type, actually (I always forget that's really what he is, just because of his character otherwise, anyway...). Yes, it took the same number of points as the team brick to make him as generally effective in gameplay. And to be fair, lemming is more loose with ECs, ignoring the arbitrary restrictions in them on 0 END powers, so that did/does help, although it mainly allowed Blazing Arrow a hellacious amount of STUN to take damage, reflecting the protection of the Gods, so long as he concentrates prior and is prepared.

 

So that's just a bit of real experience.

 

But really, why not discuss the point of the thread and drop the STR arguments?