Exponential VS Linear ?

[Fox1]

Re: Exponential VS Linear ?

 

Could you give some examples?.

 

Firearms

 

KE = Damage doesn't work for the targets the weapons were designed to work on.

 

Simple Proof:

 

Throw a baseball with the same KE as a 9mm bullet at sheet of metal- watch it bounce. Shoot metal with 9mm, watch holes be blown in it.

 

 

More complex Proof:

 

Example current studies on wounding effectiveness by the FBI and Military. Note that higher KE weapons are shown in these studies to often produce lesser injuries.

 

 

The most common thing in all my campaigns is people shooting people. If that doesn't work, the game is useless to me.

 

Edit: The above rock example another good one.

 

Compare the energy requirement between heat, radiation, light, etc to destory a piece of sandstone, something the averge man can crush in his bare hands.

 

A simple energy scale gets you basically nothing.

 

Matching the game to genre and practical game needs on the other hand, gets you everything.

[Warp9]

Re: Exponential VS Linear ?

 

Firearms

 

KE = Damage doesn't work for the targets the weapons were designed to work on.

 

Simple Proof:

 

Throw a baseball with the same KE as a 9mm bullet at sheet of metal- watch it bounce. Shoot metal with 9mm, watch holes be blown in it.

 

 

More complex Proof:

 

Example current studies on wounding effectiveness by the FBI and Military. Note that higher KE weapons are shown in these studies to often produce lesser injuries.

 

 

The most common thing in all my campaigns is people shooting people. If that doesn't work, the game is useless to me.

 

Edit: The above rock example another good one.

 

Compare the energy requirement between heat, radiation, light, etc to destory a piece of sandstone, something the averge man can crush in his bare hands.

 

A simple energy scale gets you basically nothing.

 

Matching the game to genre and practical game needs on the other hand, gets you everything.

You are missing my point.

 

You can have water without having an ocean; but you can't have an ocean without water.

 

You can have energy without damage; but it is hard to have damage without energy.

 

Give me an example of something that would have the effect of a 30d6 EB, including the ability to knock a 100 kton block of stone across the street, but here's the trick, the energy of this attack can't represent more than 100 Joules.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Exponential VS Linear ?

 

Firearms

 

KE = Damage doesn't work for the targets the weapons were designed to work on.

 

Simple Proof:

 

Throw a baseball with the same KE as a 9mm bullet at sheet of metal- watch it bounce. Shoot metal with 9mm, watch holes be blown in it.

 

Thats because the Baseball does Normal Damage. The Bullet does Killing damage. Additionally, since the baseball is covered in a nice, soft covering, it can be considered to have the Reduced Penetration limitation. The bullet does not. Thus, we have damage models that look like this:

 

9mm Round: 4DC/1D6+1K

Baseball: 4DC/4D6N Red Pen.

 

Vs the DEF4 sheet of metal, the 9mm round will punch small holes in it from time to time. The Baseball with Red Pen absolutely will not, even if maximum rollable damage is achieved.

 

More complex Proof:

 

Example current studies on wounding effectiveness by the FBI and Military. Note that higher KE weapons are shown in these studies to often produce lesser injuries.

 

Of course. Depending on the attack delivery system, an attack with high levels of energy will often blow-through a soft target to continue on its path.

 

Of course, that same attack, when it interacts with a hard-target, will deliver large amounts of energy upon said target. The current system doesn't really have ways of dealing with this issue without a significant restructuring of the core damage mechanic, so I have no problem with this particular real-life effect being thrown out the window.

 

Besides, its very "dramatic" to have .50 rounds blowing people in half. Keeps the PC's on their toes.

 

The most common thing in all my campaigns is people shooting people. If that doesn't work, the game is useless to me.

 

The current mechanics works great! It all depends on how much "realism" you want. Me? I mostly want consistancy. I'm not really that worried about real-life effects of firearms on flesh and hydrostatic shock and other such effects. Its simply too much detail for my needs. I want a good approximation of Heroic fiction with some small amount of realism added where necessary. Hero works very well in this aspect already, and I only need to adjust a few things here and there to get the results that I want. (such as applying Reduced Penetration to the Baseball to prevent it from penetrating metal)

[Warp9]

Re: Exponential VS Linear ?

 

Thats because the Baseball does Normal Damage. The Bullet does Killing damage. Additionally' date=' since the baseball is covered in a nice, soft covering, it can be considered to have the [i']Reduced Penetration[/i] limitation. The bullet does not. Thus, we have damage models that look like this:

 

9mm Round: 4DC/1D6+1K

Baseball: 4DC/4D6N Red Pen.

 

Vs the DEF4 sheet of metal, the 9mm round will punch small holes in it from time to time. The Baseball with Red Pen absolutely will not, even if maximum rollable damage is achieved.

 

 

 

Of course. Depending on the attack delivery system, an attack with high levels of energy will often blow-through a soft target to continue on its path.

 

Of course, that same attack, when it interacts with a hard-target, will deliver large amounts of energy upon said target. The current system doesn't really have ways of dealing with this issue without a significant restructuring of the core damage mechanic, so I have no problem with this particular real-life effect being thrown out the window.

 

Besides, its very "dramatic" to have .50 rounds blowing people in half. Keeps the PC's on their toes.

 

 

 

The current mechanics works great! It all depends on how much "realism" you want. Me? I mostly want consistancy. I'm not really that worried about real-life effects of firearms on flesh and hydrostatic shock and other such effects. Its simply too much detail for my needs. I want a good approximation of Heroic fiction with some small amount of realism added where necessary. Hero works very well in this aspect already, and I only need to adjust a few things here and there to get the results that I want. (such as applying Reduced Penetration to the Baseball to prevent it from penetrating metal)

Very well said!

[zornwil]

Re: Exponential VS Linear ?

 

Unfortunately, the game rules for the Body of objects does not follow that particular model. As Warp9 pointed out +1 Body per X2 Mass is strong evidence that points to an exponential scale in Hero's damage mechanic.

 

Of course, if you don't see it that way, thats fine, its simply a matter of perspective, in which case your model probably works for you just fine.

 

For me, the only thing I have to change is how the damage of explosives scales up. Thus, it takes a doubling of explosive power to get the increase of +1DC, rather than a simple addition of the same amount of explosive power as per the 5E rulesbook. Everything else pretty much falls into line after that.

 

For myself, the reason why I adopted the X2KE = +1DC model is because this is what the damage of most firearms came out to in the 4th edition. When you compared their various KE against one another, they tended to fall in the same DC (maybe with a +1 or -1 DC variance, but even this was rare) based on KE. Couple that with the +1 Body per X2 Mass mechanic and it seemed a no-brainer. I immediately made a KE to DC chart and its worked for me ever since. Its a breeze for me to convert fictional and real-life weapons to Hero and have them work quite will with this method. I don't require more complexity than that, so its what I intend to stick with.

 

The scary thing was when I posted my findings on the Hero board (way back in the day) there were at least 10 other people who came to the same conclusions that I did and had similar charts that were about 90% similar to one another.

 

Thats when I knew I wasn't smoking crack.

I know I saw it before, but if you don't mind, where is your chart?

[Warp9]

Re: Exponential VS Linear ?

 

Simple Proof:

 

Throw a baseball with the same KE as a 9mm bullet at sheet of metal- watch it bounce. Shoot metal with 9mm, watch holes be blown in it.

I think that NuSoardGraphite described the issue pretty well, but I will add something. . . .

 

Your statement here might lead one to believe that a FastBall thrown by a baseball player has the same KE as a 9mm bullet.

 

But that is not true:

 

From an example in my old Physics Book. . . .

 

Assuming a BaseBall Player Throws a fast ball at 42.0 meters/sec (or about 94 mph), and assuming that a BaseBall is .145 KG, Figure Kinetic Energy:

 

KE = 0.5 X Mass X Velocity^2

 

= 0.5 X 0.145 X 42.0^2

 

= 0.5 X 0.145 X 1764.0

 

= 127.89 Joules

 

Compare that to the energy of a 9mm Beretta M1951 which is 488 Joules (almost 4 times the energy of the Fast Ball, you'd expect the bullet to do more damage).

 

Comparing a thrown baseball to a 9mm bullet is fine, if you realize that no human could throw a basefall hard enough to give it equal energy to most 9mm bullets.

[Warp9]

Re: Exponential VS Linear ?

 

I know I saw it before' date=' but if you don't mind, where is your chart?[/quote']

If he doesn't have one around, I can dig one up for you. . . .

[zornwil]

Re: Exponential VS Linear ?

 

Well, I'd be glad to see both.

[Warp9]

Re: Exponential VS Linear ?

 

Well' date=' I'd be glad to see both.[/quote']

Here is mine.

 

Before going on, my Source for Kinetic Energy values is :

Compendium of Modern Firearms by Kenin Dockery copyright 1991. It was Published by R. Talsorian Games.

 

Everything fit well from 4th Edition. There are a few changes in 5th that don't match KE (for example the .45 ACP was 1d6+1, but is now 2d6-1, and the .50 Desert Eagle should be 2d6 rather than 2d6+1) , but most things still fit on the chart.

 

1d6-1 (from 75 J to 150 J)

.22 LR Pistol 103 J

 

1d6 (150 J to 300 J)

PPK/S 199 J

380 ACP 269

 

1d6+1 (300 J to 600 J)

38 Special 322 J

Browning HP 500 J

MP 5 570 J

9mm Makarov 382

9mm Parabellum 476

 

 

1 1/2d6 (600 J to 1200 J)

357 Mag 725 J

 

2d6 (1200 J to 2400 J)

.44 Mag 1530 J

AK-47 2004 J

M-16A1 1847 J

 

2d6+1 (2400 J to 4800 J)

SVD Sniper Rifle 3113 J

FN-FAL 3313 J

M-60 3553 J

 

2.5d6 (4800 J to 9600 J)

 

3d6 (9600 J to 19,200 J)

.50 Cal HMG 18000 J

[zornwil]

Re: Exponential VS Linear ?

 

I was thinking more in terms of correlating tangible things like lift/etc. to DC, sorry, I must have misunderstood.

[Warp9]

Re: Exponential VS Linear ?

 

I was thinking more in terms of correlating tangible things like lift/etc. to DC' date=' sorry, I must have misunderstood.[/quote']

Well, if you know how far you want to lift a given weight, you can get a Joule Value off of that.

 

X Newtons of Weight lifted Y meters in height = Z Joules of Energy

 

X Pounds of Weight lifted Y feet in height also equals some amount of energy.

 

 

The main issue here is that without knowing how long the lift took, you can't figure Power (Which is Energy / Time ). A normal man can lift an air-craft carrier 2 meters into the air, with the right pulley system, but it would take him a number of months to do so.

 

I would assume that a high STR character could do his lifting in a relatively short period of time (with a turn anyway).

 

Power is also a factor in attacks, but that is a whole different can of worms.

[zornwil]

Re: Exponential VS Linear ?

 

Well, if you know how far you want to lift a given weight, you can get a Joule Value off of that.

 

X Newtons of Weight lifted Y meters in height = Z Joules of Energy

 

X Pounds of Weight lifted Y feet in height also equals some amount of energy.

 

 

The main issue here is that without knowing how long the lift took, you can't figure Power (Which is Energy / Time ). A normal man can lift an air-craft carrier 2 meters into the air, with the right pulley system, but it would take him a number of months to do so.

 

I would assume that a high STR character could do his lifting in a relatively short period of time (with a turn anyway).

 

Power is also a factor in attacks, but that is a whole different can of worms.

And this is why I'd like to see a dumbed-down chart or simple formula (such as lift in phase = (whatever)).

[Warp9]

Re: Exponential VS Linear ?

 

And this is why I'd like to see a dumbed-down chart or simple formula (such as lift in phase = (whatever)).

 

A chart could be made fairly easily with the proper assumptions.

 

Maybe assume that a character in going to be lifting X mass (in normal Earth Grav) to a 1 meter height, over a period of 1 second.

 

That way the only variable is Mass, and the only result is Power, which again, is not quite the same as Energy.

 

Let me know if the time and distance assumptions are OK, and I'll see if I can come up with something for you. . . .

[Fox1]

Re: Exponential VS Linear ?

 

You are missing my point.

 

No, you're missing mine.

 

Flat out, no question to it, simple reality- a pure KE model doe not represent firearm damage on human targets anywhere near well enough for my needs.

 

So your methods just flat out sucks to me. It breaks the genres I run, it ruins my games. If used in HERO, I would drop the game and move on.

 

In fixing the game for yourself, you are wrecking it for others.

 

So please go off and house rule whatever you wish for your own games. Leave ours alone. In this case Steve Long is a much better designer than you.

[Warp9]

Re: Exponential VS Linear ?

 

No, you're missing mine.

 

Flat out, no question to it, simple reality- a pure KE model doe not represent firearm damage on human targets anywhere near well enough for my needs.

 

So your methods just flat out sucks to me. It breaks the genres I run, it ruins my games. If used in HERO, I would drop the game and move on.

 

In fixing the game for yourself, you are wrecking it for others.

 

So please go off and house rule whatever you wish for your own games. Leave ours alone. In this case Steve Long is a much better designer than you.

The thing is that the current Hero Firearm damage (in the standard rules, not the Fox1 house rules), is very close to being a pure KE model. Yeah, there are some exceptions, but most of the guns map to KE, and in the 4th edition main book they perfectly fit a KE model.

[zornwil]

Re: Exponential VS Linear ?

 

A chart could be made fairly easily with the proper assumptions.

 

Maybe assume that a character in going to be lifting X mass (in normal Earth Grav) to a 1 meter height, over a period of 1 second.

 

That way the only variable is Mass, and the only result is Power, which again, is not quite the same as Energy.

 

Let me know if the time and distance assumptions are OK, and I'll see if I can come up with something for you. . . .

I think they're okay...I guess I'd have to see how it scales, but it seems reasonable.

 

Feel free, but don't knock yourself out on this on my account.

[Fox1]

Re: Exponential VS Linear ?

 

The thing is that the current Hero Firearm damage (in the standard rules' date=' not the Fox1 house rules)[/i'], is very close to being a pure KE model. Yeah, there are some exceptions, but most of the guns map to KE, and in the 4th edition main book they perfectly fit a KE model.

 

The current firearms damage sucks in HERO, which is why I had to make my own HOUSE RULES to correct it.

 

The current EXP and Linear mix however suits me just fine, which is why I don't need any HOUSE RULES or you HOUSE RULES to change it.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Exponential VS Linear ?

 

No, you're missing mine.

 

Flat out, no question to it, simple reality- a pure KE model doe not represent firearm damage on human targets anywhere near well enough for my needs.

 

So your methods just flat out sucks to me. It breaks the genres I run, it ruins my games. If used in HERO, I would drop the game and move on.

 

In fixing the game for yourself, you are wrecking it for others.

 

So please go off and house rule whatever you wish for your own games. Leave ours alone. In this case Steve Long is a much better designer than you.

 

Whoah! What happened here...

 

"Your way sucks, my way doesn't!"

 

You had some great arguments ealier. Run out of steam?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Exponential VS Linear ?

 

I know I saw it before' date=' but if you don't mind, where is your chart?[/quote']

 

My chart is simply a map of direct Kintetic Energy to Damage Class conversion as a guide to converting firearms (mainly) and other weapons to Hero. It doesn't include anything like Lifting Strength and KE/DC relation. I don't intend to tread on how Hero already handles that.

 

I've posted it a couple of times, so I'll initiate a search and see if I can link it.

[zornwil]

Re: Exponential VS Linear ?

 

Okay, thanks, but no need for special efforts.

[Agent X]

Re: Exponential VS Linear ?

 

The current firearms damage sucks in HERO, which is why I had to make my own HOUSE RULES to correct it.

 

The current EXP and Linear mix however suits me just fine, which is why I don't need any HOUSE RULES or you HOUSE RULES to change it.

I don't have a problem with the current rules for firearms.