Relative Strength of Armor

[Guest Strassenzauber]

Just off the top of your head, what approximate level of Armor, either PD or ED, would completely protect the thusly Armored character from a specific category of weapon?

 

...Small Pistols

...Medium Pistols

...Heavy Pistols/ Low-Powered Longarms

...High-Powered Longarms

...Firearms Above .50 Caliber

...High-Velocity, Large-Caliber Weapons

...Big Guns

...Big F. Guns

 

What I mean is, if I purchase Armor (10 PD), would that protect me from even the luckiest Small Pistols shots? Would Armor (15 PD) protect me from even the luckiest Medium Pistol shots? How much Armor is needed to protect me from a Big F. Gun shot completely?

 

It's all about the relative strength of Armor vs. Weapon. Thanks in advance for your responses.

 

P.S.: Hi, I'm new to the forums.

[Ura-Maru]

Re: Relative Strength of Armor

 

Ah, it depends.

 

Get used to this answer. It comes up a lot here.

 

The first variable is how much damage guns do in the campain. Now, generally, most hero games have

 

Small pistols: ~1d6 K

Medium Pistols: ~1d6+1 K

Heavy Pistols: ~1d6+1K - 2d6 K, +1 Stun Mult

 

Long guns start around 1.5d6 K and run to 3d6 or so. 3d6+1 with an improved stun multiple is about as big as anything not mounted on a vehicle gets.

 

Yeah, a bit compressed. But compressing rifle ammo makes sense in most 'heroic' style generes, where big handguns are scarier than small handguns, but rifles really arn't that much more dangerous than pistols.

 

So, 6 points of resistant PD, (6/6 armor, assuming you want energy defense as well) will stop all the Body damage from a small pistol, 7 for a medum, 12 will protect you from the bigest handguns and light rifles, and 19 from the heavy machine guns.

 

Unless there's AP ammo. Or they have Find Weakness. Or you use hit locations. Or the GM allows extra, 'Deadly Blow' Killing Attack to be added to base gun damage.

 

Armor Piercing halves armor's effectiveness. In a point based game, that will usually also come with reducing the overall power of the attack by 1/3rd, so it roughly balances out. For a Dark Champions Heroic game, that usually comes with a trivial penalty to the base dice, so it's a safe assumption that everyone will always be using it.

 

Find Weakness halves armor. And you can use it multiple times. So let's just leave it out for now, as it's too open-ended.

 

The other factor is Stun. (the other damage type that Hero uses)

 

Now, a normal damage attack in Hero does (on average) about 3.5 times the body in stun per attack.

 

Killing Attacks, which do Killing damage, do a little less stun on average (2.5 times body without the extra stun multiple, or 3.5 with) but the damage is much more variable than a normal attack. Normal attacks almost never do more than, say 4.5 times the average body, but Killing Attacks do. (Killing attacks are just as likely to do no stun at all, but that's not relavant here.)

 

So, you're going to need more defense to avoid being knocked out. How much, exactly, is open to debate. To avoid the posiblity of ANY stun will take five or six times the amouts listed above. (the regular PD that characters get adds to Armor for this purpose, so you'll be starting with double or triple the listed amounts already)

 

In a very short period of time, someone will show up to complain about the evils of the 'Stun Lotto.'

 

I'll leave the argument of how much Stun coresponds to actual damage, as someone's sure to pick it up soon.

 

---

"They absorb gunfire reasonably well, as you can see . . ."

[JTesla]

Re: Relative Strength of Armor

 

P.S.: Hi' date=' I'm new to the forums. [/quote']

 

Welcome and nice avatar. I'd try to answer your question, but Ura-Maru already did such a great job.

[Guest Strassenzauber]

Re: Relative Strength of Armor

 

Ah, it depends.

 

Get used to this answer. It comes up a lot here.

 

Information noted and stored: vague is the Word of the Day.

 

The first variable is how much damage guns do in the campain. Now, generally, most hero games have

 

Small pistols: ~1d6 K

Medium Pistols: ~1d6+1 K

Heavy Pistols: ~1d6+1K - 2d6 K, +1 Stun Mult

 

Long guns start around 1.5d6 K and run to 3d6 or so. 3d6+1 with an improved stun multiple is about as big as anything not mounted on a vehicle gets.

 

Yeah, a bit compressed. But compressing rifle ammo makes sense in most 'heroic' style generes, where big handguns are scarier than small handguns, but rifles really arn't that much more dangerous than pistols.

 

So, 6 points of resistant PD, (6/6 armor, assuming you want energy defense as well) will stop all the Body damage from a small pistol, 7 for a medum, 12 will protect you from the bigest handguns and light rifles, and 19 from the heavy machine guns.

 

I see, I see. I am most interested in pure damage comparisons, sans abilities such as Armor Piercing and Penetrating. Very helpful, thank you.

 

Unless there's AP ammo. Or they have Find Weakness. Or you use hit locations. Or the GM allows extra' date=' 'Deadly Blow' Killing Attack to be added to base gun damage.[/quote']

 

I use Hit Locations... however, to me it doesn't make sense to use the Stun and Body multipliers unless the Armor is actually breached. After all, why should a Gauntlet with PD 10 be MORE effective, because of Hit Location modifiers, than a Helmet, when they cost the same amount of points? Thus, I don't use the Hit Location modifiers until at least SOME damage makes it through the Armor to cause harm to the character. Do you see what I mean?

 

To be clearer, let's say a Gauntlet has 10 PD, a Helmet has 10 PD, and you shoot them both while they are being worn by the character. If you apply the Hit Location modifiers to the BODY damage BEFORE you apply it to the Armor...

 

This deserves a whole new thread.

 

Thanks so much for your advice, though.

[Guest Strassenzauber]

Re: Relative Strength of Armor

 

Welcome and nice avatar. I'd try to answer your question' date=' but Ura-Maru already did such a great job.[/quote']

 

Thank you! I courageously filched it from an online gallery years ago.

 

You should see the whole picture, but I'm not entirely sure the moderators would approve of the full-body point of view.

[Stone]

Re: Relative Strength of Armor

 

I agree w/Ura-Maru.

 

The levels of armor you have indicated in most cases enough to protect agains the body of the attack, its the stun you will have to watch out for.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Relative Strength of Armor

 

i love autofiring on guns! i play the stun lotto to win!

[Guest Strassenzauber]

Re: Relative Strength of Armor

 

i love autofiring on guns! i play the stun lotto to win!

 

But Hit Locations are so much more FUN and realistic (if you tweak them right). After all, not using the Hit Locations pretty much assumes a character is just a big wad of flesh with no organs or distinguishing features.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Relative Strength of Armor

 

But Hit Locations are so much more FUN and realistic (if you tweak them right). After all' date=' not using the Hit Locations pretty much assumes a character is just a big wad of flesh with no organs or distinguishing features. [/quote']

 

oh, i do use hit locations, i assumed that's what people ment.

 

the character with 2 autofire 5 crossbows (and the autofire skill to use both), also has +8 PSL only to offset called shots 4 times a day, so he can really cut loose at cinimatic moments and give a string of head shots

[Guest Strassenzauber]

Re: Relative Strength of Armor

 

oh, i do use hit locations, i assumed that's what people ment.

 

the character with 2 autofire 5 crossbows (and the autofire skill to use both), also has +8 PSL only to offset called shots 4 times a day, so he can really cut loose at cinimatic moments and give a string of head shots

 

Ohhhhh!! I see.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Relative Strength of Armor

 

I'd just like to point out that the Body multiplier of a Hit Location applies after defenses are subtracted, so a 10 PD guantlet is exactly as effective as a 10 PD helmet. It is the damage that gets through that has more or less effect on the character because of the vulnerability and necessity of the body part hit.

 

EDIT: However, it is true that the Stun multipliers are applied before defenses. I'm not sure what I think about that, but it gives an option for characters facing a heavy opponent they just can't seem to injure.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Relative Strength of Armor

 

I'd just like to point out that the Body multiplier of a Hit Location applies after defenses are subtracted' date=' so a 10 PD guantlet is exactly as effective as a 10 PD helmet. It is the damage that [i']gets through[/i] that has more or less effect on the character because of the vulnerability and necessity of the body part hit.

 

EDIT: However, it is true that the Stun multipliers are applied before defenses. I'm not sure what I think about that, but it gives an option for characters facing a heavy opponent they just can't seem to injure.

 

I think it's because STUN damage can be likened to... well, it's kinetic/ impact/ shock damage, as opposed to tear/ cut/ pierce damage. The bullet (or arrow, or sword, etcetera) will still cause kinetic energy to be transferred to the target. If I hit you with the blunt end of a warhammer whilst you are wearing a full suit of plate mail, the bludgeoning impact still takes its toll.

[Fox1]

Re: Relative Strength of Armor

 

I think it's because STUN damage can be likened to... well' date=' it's kinetic/ impact/ shock damage, as opposed to tear/ cut/ pierce damage. The bullet (or arrow, or sword, etcetera) will still cause kinetic energy to be transferred to the target. If I hit you with the blunt end of a warhammer whilst you are wearing a full suit of plate mail, the bludgeoning impact still takes its toll.[/quote']

 

I think it's because it makes the game work better.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Relative Strength of Armor

 

I think it's because it makes the game work better.

 

I think it's both. it does make the game work better, but it also represents how if i take a mace to the hand, my hand will be hurting through a plate mail gauntlet, but if i take a mace to the head, i'm gonna be in some serious pain.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Relative Strength of Armor

 

:sigh: Yeah, but the Normal Stun Multiplier woks after defenses. I hate that discrepency. I'm inclined to just change the Normal Stun Multiplier to work before defenses too, but I use Hit Locations pretty rarely, so I haven't yet bothered to weigh it thoroughly.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Relative Strength of Armor

 

I think it's both. it does make the game work better' date=' but it also represents how if i take a mace to the hand, my hand will be hurting through a plate mail gauntlet, but if i take a mace to the head, i'm gonna be in some serious pain.[/quote']

 

It took me a humongus effort not to type out a venomous comeback to Fox1 for that comment yesterday. And yeah, it's a combination of both. The game would work well if it played like Checkers -- in fact, it would work VERY smoothly -- but that's not the point.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Relative Strength of Armor

 

It took me a humongus effort not to type out a venomous comeback to Fox1 for that comment yesterday. And yeah' date=' it's a combination of both. The game would work well if it played like Checkers -- in fact, it would work VERY smoothly -- but that's not the point.[/quote']

 

yes i'll agree i thought it was a very cynical thing to say, but i figured that by being courteous i might be taken more seriously (if anyone is taken seriously on these boards)

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Relative Strength of Armor

 

Hey Black lotus....yes I totally understand where you were coming from there.

 

They say that to bite one's tongue is one of the greatest forms of courtesy and should be likened to the patience of a god. I generally find it makes my mouth taste bloody.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Relative Strength of Armor

 

They say that to bite one's tongue is one of the greatest forms of courtesy and should be likened to the patience of a god. I generally find it makes my mouth taste bloody.

 

I'm guessing it's a more FIGURATIVE piece of advice.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Relative Strength of Armor

 

I'm guessing it's a more FIGURATIVE piece of advice.

 

heh, I was trying to be witty... guess I should try harder

[prestidigitator]

Re: Relative Strength of Armor

 

It took me a humongus effort not to type out a venomous comeback to Fox1 for that comment yesterday. And yeah' date=' it's a combination of both. The game would work well if it played like Checkers -- in fact, it would work VERY smoothly -- but that's not the point.[/quote']

Just got to say that you should feel honored. That comment was nothing compared to some of his more...enthusiastic...posts.