Damaging Focus

[Dr Divago]

I'm searching in FAQ and FREd (not revised edition ...) but i have'nt found nothing about "Damaging Focus".

I mean: FREd say that a "Breakable Focus" has a DEF equal to most powerful power's active points divided by five (or applicable defense power, what is bigger).

But can i define "structure damage points" for Focus?

 

Example: in my Cyberpunk conversion, i'm making Cyberlimbs like Focus (so it can be damaged, if removed none of the power inside will function, and like)

because i build this cyberware as a VPP, i'll calculate DEF against VPP control cost.

For example, cyberarm (VPP 40+20 control, plus bonus to strenght only to use this limb, plus no end naked advantage for normal strenght only to use this limb...)

VPP is most expensive power, so i say that Cyberlimb have DEF 4 (20/5)

 

Someone shot my character, roll for hit location, and hit my Cyberarm. If his 9mm damage (1d6+1 RKA) score is 4 or lesser, no damage. If he makes a 5, 6 or 7, he hit and damage my arm. So... how many hit can be support before be unusable?

how many damage point, or body point, or like, my arm can absorb?

 

(second question: special effect for this "power" is a cybernethic limb who substitute my arm; a special limitation called Cyberware (-½), extension of the Restrainable limitation, means that cyberware are substitution of normal arm, so i think that hitting cyberarm does not damage BODY point from character... or not?)

[Ura-Maru]

Re: Damaging Focus

 

You could use the pool value as the 'largest power', which would give an 8 def . .

 

Offically a focus dosn't have a body. Every time it's damaged, it loses one power. Officially. Most GMs soften this a bit, at least for Armor . . . anyway, they break when they run out of powers, or are hit by a single attack that does double their DEF.

 

Wait. A VPP? That's kind of an odd choice. I'm not sure how the build works. Could you post the whole thing?

 

In any case, the character will need to buy the 'takes no stun/less stun to hits on the arm' power seperatly. There are several ways to do that . . . but I'd like to see how you built it first, if you don't mind.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Damaging Focus

 

If you are going to play a pure Cyberpunk or Sci-fi/Space Opera game where Cybernetics figures in heavily, and you don't want hits to Cyberlimbs to affect the characters Body and Stun scores, then your best bet is to use the Focus rules for Cyberlimbs. A combination of Obvious/Inaccessible (or Inobvious if its covered in synth-flesh) and the -1/4 version of Restrainable (though I'd probably make it a -1/2 limitation in a pure Cyberpunk campaign because of the prevelance of anti-cyber equipment) would probably suffice to simulate Cyberlimbs properly.

 

If your character has Quick-Change mounts on his Cyberlimbs, they become Obvious/Accessible.

 

How to do Quick-Change Mounts? The answer: Multipower! (or VPP if the GM is insane)

[Ura-Maru]

Re: Damaging Focus

 

Oh, by the way, the focus damage rules are on the very begining of page 190

[Dr Divago]

Re: Damaging Focus

 

You could use the pool value as the 'largest power'' date=' which would give an 8 def...[/quote']O_o

Def 8 is HUUGE defense... (and it make virtually useless build Armor 6PD...)

Wait. A VPP? That's kind of an odd choice. I'm not sure how the build works. Could you post the whole thing?

Yep

This is a bit tricky, cause cyberarm in CP2020 are bit complex; my idea was to considere cyberlimb as a sum of some power (compound power):

1) all cyberlimb have some power:

Arms have +3STR only usabel with limb (-½) and NoEND for up to STR13, only usable with Limb (-½)

Legs have +2" running No END, only if both legs are equipped (-¾) and +3 STR Only usable with Limb (-½)

Other limb (corvette cyberlegs, supersized arms, and like) have some difference

All limb are bought with OIF (-½) and Cyberware (-½) disadvantages; Cyberware is my expansion for Restrainable that cover Restrainable effect, plus necessity of surgical implantation, real object limitation (cyberware need maintenance, see Chromebook3), crime punishment for illegal cyberware, and vulnerability to EMP. In my idea this will covere even for physical limitation in case of disabling and/or destroying limb

2) optional like Quick Change, Thickened Myomar and like are bought as naked advantages; cover like armor, emp shielding, superchrome or illumitech neonlimb are bought like additional compound power; Realskin are a "remove Obvious Limitation for Focus"

3) Hand/Feet are a problem: my original idea was to build them as a linked power, and toolhand and similar bought as PSL "to remove missed tool penalties", or maybe with VPP or Multipower for fingers, but actually i've no idea how to make it

4) VPP; all cyberlimbs (well, is correct to say "most cyberlimbs" 'cause Supersized or Blietzkrieg have no internal optional...) have internal optional; in Interlock this is figured as a "4 space for optional" but some optional occupies 2 space or more. So i've thought about a VPP with "can only be changed in MedTech labs", "Slightly Limited class of powers", and obviously Cyberware, OIF and Humanity Loss (a side effect who gradually transform human in cyberpsycothic human...)

 

so all optional are a real cost, and i can combine more or lesser internal optional; I think that VPP are best option to simulate a "gadget belt", and cyberlimbs are gadget belt (well, not exactly "belt" but...)

[MisterBaldy]

Re: Damaging Focus

 

From HERO System Fifth Edition Revised, page 294:

 

When an attack hits a Breakable Focus, each attack that penetrates the DEF of the Focus and does BODY damage destroys one of the powers bought through the Focus. The amount of BODY done is unimportant -- one power is destroyed whether the attack did 1 BODY or 15. The GM should determine which power is destroyed; usually it's the largest one in the Focus or one chosen randomly. The special effects of the attack or the Focus may help the GM decide which powers are affected. For this purpose, a Multipower counts as one power (with Active Points equal to the value of its reserve, +1 point for each slot); an Elemental Control counts as one power (with Active Points equal to the value of the Active Points in the largest power in the EC, +1 point for each additional power); and a Variable Power Pool counts as one power (with Active Points equal to the value of the points in its Pool).

 

A Focus is destroyed when it loses all of its powers, or when any single attack against it does two times (2x) its DEF in BODY, at the GM's option. Defenses of any kind aren't broken until the entire Focus is destroyed.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damaging Focus

 

I'm not sure what sort of damage values you use for weapons in your cyberpunk game, but DEF 8 is not a huge total IMO. There are plenty of modern handguns that could damage a cyberlimb with that total, even without any special ammunition, hell, there are some bows and arrows that can go through that kind of defence on a reasonably regular basis.

 

Now how do you work out which powers 'go' with a VPP?

 

Well, you could consider a VPP as one power so the whole thing goes. Nasty. You could, with a generous GM and a following wind, make damaged cyberlimbs less reliable (effectively make the powers ablative - they gain an activation roll on the limb being damaged and it gets worse the more damage it takes.

 

I'd probably rather see it slotted as a multipower and lose a slot per hit at random (with the pool being one 'slot' - an unlucky hit could take the whole thing down first go). As always, depends on your game, but I can see you dragging around useless cyberlimbs by the end of most firefights, if you are not careful.

[Dr Divago]

Re: Damaging Focus

 

I'm not sure what sort of damage values you use for weapons in your cyberpunk game' date=' but DEF 8 is not a huge total IMO. There are plenty of modern handguns that could damage a cyberlimb with that total, even without any special ammunition, hell, there are some bows and arrows that can go through that kind of defence on a reasonably regular basis.[/quote']I'm using DC value, or similar

for instance, 9mm is 1d6+1 RKA and 5.56 are 2d6 (or 2½d6? i must see my .doc file...)

 

Well' date=' you could consider a VPP as one power so the whole thing goes. Nasty. You could, with a generous GM and a following wind, make damaged cyberlimbs less reliable (effectively make the powers ablative - they gain an activation roll on the limb being damaged and it gets worse the more damage it takes.[/quote']Idea is to damage one optional (power in VPP) for every shot that hit and damage...

In the other side, damaging one optional save from "dragging around useless cyberlimbs at the end of firefight", and is expensive to rebuy/reinstall component (equipment are paid in euros, not point...)

but I can see you dragging around useless cyberlimbs by the end of most firefights' date=' if you are not careful.[/quote']

giving some "structural damage point" to the limb may be useful for this reason but...

 

one more question: DEF of focus are resistent, right?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damaging Focus

 

Idea is to damage one optional (power in VPP) for every shot that hit and damage...

 

 

one more question: DEF of focus are resistent, right?

 

 

....yep, DEF of focus is resistant, no problem there (although it doesn't normally incorportate, for example, power defence).

 

The problem with losing a 'slot' from a VPP is that, unless you have a strictly limited number of slots already pre-defined, or real limits on how you can change slots, a VPP has, in effect, an infinite number of slots - you just shift to another type of power and you are away.

[Dr Divago]

Re: Damaging Focus

 

....yep' date=' DEF of focus is resistant, no problem there (although it doesn't normally incorportate, for example, power defence).[/quote']And, of course, are both PD and ED, right?

 

so in hero conversion Armored Limb have no sense... (VP20 becomes PD6-7) unless i find some other advantage...

The problem with losing a 'slot' from a VPP is that' date=' unless you have a strictly limited number of slots already pre-defined, or real limits on how you can change slots, a VPP has, in effect, an infinite number of slots - you just shift to another type of power and you are away.[/quote']Well, this is the case:

Cyberarms options are bought like individual power, but power that:

1) can be changed only in a MedTech lab

2) must be bought, and this is surely not cheap (some optional are bit expensive... cheaper ones cost about 700 ?...) and in some case neither easy (some optionale are illegal...)

 

The (dis)advantage of heroic game is that money can greatly add or limit equipment...

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Damaging Focus

 

I would model Cyberlimbs with Quick Change Mounts as Multipower.

 

Each time you get a new limb that you can change to, you add a slot onto the Multipower.

[Ura-Maru]

Re: Damaging Focus

 

VPP for limb: That's actually not a bad idea. Though most people only use VPPs for 'whatever I want' kind of stuff. Multipowers are more common for things with lots of optional extras.

 

Really, I guess, it depends on how easy you want it to be to modify/alter heavy cyberwear like limbs. If 'This is going to be in the dark, so I better stop by the ripperdoc for a flashlight attachment' is what you're looking for, VPP is the way to go. If getting your options swapped is more of a big deal, then some other route might be better.

 

Body damage to focus isn't like body damage to people, though. One body over will kill a function, (and how many functions will a cyberarm have? 3?) so a cyberarm might actually be easier to disable than a real one.

 

 

+35 strength is probably too much for a cyberarm. If you attached a cyberarm to a solid mount, could it lift (35 STR-5 for only one hand=30 STR) a small car? More than that, actually, because that's 35 points in addition to the characters base STR.

 

One arm has 5pts less STR than the character does, I believe. It did in 4th edition, at least.

 

Also, cyberlims can't use their strength effectively, so just buying a ton of raw STR is probably the wrong way to go.

 

What do they let you do, besides turn your arm into a swiss army knife?

 

1: Punch/Kick harder, but not THAT much harder, due to being mounted to flesh and having only the arm/leg provide all the extra power.

2: Arms have an incredible grip.

3: Even one leg would probably let you jump (not run, probably) farther.

4: Highly resistant to damage.

 

So: (How I would do it, anyway)

1: Arm: +5 STR, no figured characteristics (including leap and maximum lift)(-1/2).

Leg: +10 STR, no figured characteristics, Leg only, (-1/2)

 

'Leg only' is worth more, because legs can't be used to add to weapons, or to grab, or do many other things. 'one arm/leg' would be worth only about 1/4, I think. They DO help with many genaralized things, and the penalties just won't come up that often.

 

Both would probably be a big pain while wrestling, though, and would be more useful on rare occasions where you could brace part of them and use the rest. I'd give tack on an extra +10 STR, only to Disarm, Grab, Escape, or when isolated (-1/2) to the arm, and +10 STR, only to Escape, or when isolated (-1) to the leg.

 

You might want to tack an additional d6HA on both, as they're hard and made of plastic. Though if you're going to include things like BigKnucks and Mace Hands, you'd have to be careful to keep the total damage under control.

 

2: 10 (15) Cyber Crush: 1d6 HKA, (2d6 w'STR) Must Follow Grab (-1/2)

The neat thing is all the STR needed to double comes from the arm itself.

 

Instead of buying no end on some strength, I'd give them

4 (10) Cyber Hold: Clinging, Requires a Handhold or Grip (-1) No Movement (-1/2) This would give them an end-free STR +5 hold

 

3: A single leg already gives +2" to Leap, and two give +4". That's almost certianly good enough, and maybe a little too much.

 

4: This is the tricky one. I can think of a few ways to do it.

Now, cuting up a cyberarm or hand won't hurt the character. It is connected, though, so it could conduct shocks back to where it’s connected to the body, especially if it’s shoved hard or twisted. (or ripped out!) Accepting this makes it much easeir to build.

 

The easiest way would just be some armor and extra PD for those hit locations. And maybe some extra body as well, or damage reduction. A –1 limitation seems appropriate.

The odds of hitting a single arm or leg are lower than an 11- activation, but the player can chose to endanger his cyberarm instead of his meat one when he wants to.

 

Now, there's also a restricted Automaton power, Takes No Stun. Normally, players can't take it. However, it’s limited enough in this case (only applying to a few hit locations) that it doesn’t seem too unreasonable. And the neat thing is the basic version (45 points) comes with a limitation very similar to your ‘cyberwear’ limitation, that is, when it takes body, it looses some functionality. It also makes the defenses cost three times as much.

 

So.

 

Basic Cyberarm: (All this goes outside any frameworks used)

3 (5) Cyber Strength: +5 STR, No Figured (-1/2)

5 (10) Cyber Strength: +10 STR, No Figured,(-1/2), only to Disarm, Grab, Escape, or when isolated (-1/2)

22.5 (45) Metal Is Better Than Meat: Takes No Stun, one arm only (-1)

10 (20) It’s not MY Arm: +10 Body, one arm only (-1)

22.5 (45) Made of Molybdenum: 6/4 armor, one arm only (-1) (it also has 1/3rd the base PD and ED of the character, nonresistant, and only gets 1/3rd the value of any armor worn over it)

 

There are two easy ways to do the hand. The pool you mentioned, or a multipower.

 

Cyberhand Pool

8 (20) Control Cost: Requires a Cyber Tech Roll, Can only be changed in a Tech Shop (-1/2), Takes Hours (-1/4) Slightly Limited (-1/4), Must Pay For Upgrades (-1/4), Restrainable(-1/4)

40 Point Cyberarm options pool

Pool Usually contains:

10 (15)Cyber Crush: 1d6 HKA (2d6 w’str) must follow grab (-1/2)

4 (10) Cyber Hold: Clinging, Requires a Handhold or Grip (-1) No Movement (-1/2)

3 (5) Hard Fist: +1d6 HA

which leaves 23 points for other arm options. Or you can leave the ‘basic hand’ options outside the pool and use all 40 for options.

 

 

24 (30)Cyberlimb Options Multipower, restrainable (–1/4)

2 (30) Basic Hand Functions: 10 (15)Cyber Crush: 1d6 HKA (2d6 w’str) must follow grab (-1/2) AND: 4 (10) Cyber Hold: Clinging, Requires a Handhold or Grip (-1) No Movement (-1/2) AND 3 (5) Hard Fist: +1d6 HA

2/3 (30) Extra Hand Option: (A 30 point power from the ‘cyber hand’ list)

2/3 (30) Arm Option 1 (a 30 point power from the ‘cyber arm’ list)

2/3 (30) Arm Option 2 (a second 30 point power from the ‘cyber arm’ list)

 

Thickend Myomar and Armor don’t work right as options in the multipower, but you can easily add more STR and more armor to the base arm. (Extra STR should have a better Cyber Crush in one of the option slots.

 

 

Yikes. 95 points for the multipower option, or 111 for the pool! Fortunately, it comes with a few disadvantages, as well.

 

3: One Arm Restrainable as Cyberwear. (Bought as a 15 point “Missing one arm†limitation, that’s then the disadvantage is bought off with the –1/4 ‘Restrainable’ limitation) This goes up to 5 points with two limbs, and 10 with four.

 

10: Susceptibility: 1d6 stun from having cyberarm abused (twisted, too much weight dropped on it, or taking it taking body)(common)

 

10: Susceptibility: 2d6 stun from having cyberarm seriously abused (Twisted by a very strong person, a LOT of weight dropped on it, taking a lot of body in one hit. Stacks with the above, of course)

 

5: Susceptibility: 2d6 Body from having cyberarm torn off (very uncommon, 2d6)

 

 

When the arm takes body, it looses (In ADDITION to the body it looses) functionality. It can lose: (randomly, or at GM’s whim)

• 10 STR (This drops the characters effective strength to five LESS than normal. A second roll of this result takes out the 'isolated' STR and effectively disables the arm. It may be able to take this an extra time if the limb has bought extra STR)
  
• -1 CV to anything done with the arm (The book said to drop Speed, but dex makes more sense in this case)
  
• 2/1 Armor (If armor is already gone, reroll)
  
• One Slot in the Multipower or power in the Pool. If it loses the 'crush' option, it can no longer use the hand for normal hand things, though the arm part still works. If the rolled slot is 'empty,' the arm is unaffected.
  
• The buyoff of the 'No Arm' disadvantage! Arm totally disabled!
  

 

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Are these posts too long and disorganized to be of any help?

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Damaging Focus

 

I have one thing to add, half a question and half a statement.

 

I believe I remember seeing stats marked up as, "+30 STR; user cannot use own STR score (-1)." In other words, your STR gets set at a certain level. Think I saw it in Star HERO. Can anyone corroborate that? Star HERO is in a guest bedroom at the moment, which has genuine guests sleeping in it as I speak (dammit).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Damaging Focus

 

I would model Cyberlimbs with Quick Change Mounts as Multipower.

 

Each time you get a new limb that you can change to, you add a slot onto the Multipower.

 

 

That works perfectly until you start using MultiOption arms.

 

Arm 1:

Extra Strength, built in 8-rnd gun, built in blade, flashlight

 

Arm 2:

Built in 15-rnd machine gun, extra clip, bayonet, Tazer charge.

 

Now you have 4 Powers/Slots that go to one are. Or you build all the powers into 1 slot of the MP, which can get prohibitavely expensive for campaigns that use points instead of money.

 

a VPP with a limitation of "4-Powers at a time Maximum" allows a mix/match scenario, the number of options is capped at 4 or the AP of the Pool.

 

Either scenario works equally well however. It's all how you want to play the game.

[Dr Divago]

Re: Damaging Focus

 

If 'This is going to be in the dark' date=' so I better stop by the ripperdoc for a flashlight attachment' is what you're looking for, VPP is the way to go.[/quote']Yeah, this is the point...

 

+35 strength is probably too much for a cyberarm.

Oh yeah yeah...

maybe i'me confused... i give +5 STR to limb, not +35...

 

2: Arms have an incredible grip.

3: Even one leg would probably let you jump (not run, probably) farther.

4: Highly resistant to damage.

You're right... i've missed some things...

 

2: 10 (15) Cyber Crush: 1d6 HKA, (2d6 w'STR) Must Follow Grab (-1/2)

The neat thing is all the STR needed to double comes from the arm itself.

This is a good option for Reinforced Myomar...

 

4 (10) Cyber Hold: Clinging' date=' Requires a Handhold or Grip (-1) No Movement (-1/2) This would give them an end-free STR +5 hold[/quote']Only for amrs, so...

Now' date=' there's also a restricted Automaton power, Takes No Stun. Normally, players can't take it. However, it?s limited enough in this case (only applying to a few hit locations) that it doesn?t seem too unreasonable.[/quote']In my vision, full'borg have Takes no Stun and Does not Bleed options to simulate 'borg complete mechanical body

 

Basic Cyberarm: (All this goes outside any frameworks used)

3 (5) Cyber Strength: +5 STR, No Figured (-1/2)

5 (10) Cyber Strength: +10 STR, No Figured,(-1/2), only to Disarm, Grab, Escape, or when isolated (-1/2)

22.5 (45) Metal Is Better Than Meat: Takes No Stun, one arm only (-1)

10 (20) It?s not MY Arm: +10 Body, one arm only (-1)

22.5 (45) Made of Molybdenum: 6/4 armor, one arm only (-1) (it also has 1/3rd the base PD and ED of the character, nonresistant, and only gets 1/3rd the value of any armor worn over it)

Can i copy this? I think is a very niiiice construction...

 

but... one moment...

you forgot Obvious Inaccessible Focus for it...

Yikes. 95 points for the multipower option' date=' or 111 for the pool! Fortunately, it comes with a few disadvantages, as well.[/quote']Well in my campaign i let buy cyberware with money, so don't bother about point cost...

3: One Arm Restrainable as Cyberwear. (Bought as a 15 point ?Missing one arm? limitation' date=' that?s then the disadvantage is bought off with the ?1/4 ?Restrainable? limitation) This goes up to 5 points with two limbs, and 10 with four. [/quote']This is the reverse side of Cyberware limitation; so if player are'nt heavy cybered, i'll give it not additional disadvantage. If player have A LOT of cyberware, well, probably have a lot of Humanity Loss, so some disadvantages come from HL...

 

Are these posts too long and disorganized to be of any help?

You're kidding? this post is VERY USEFUL!

Now i've a clear idea about cyberlimbs...

[Ura-Maru]

Re: Damaging Focus

 

Of course you can copy it! Just send me royalties. LOTS of royalties. And some pie.

 

Just kidding. Of course you can use it. That's what it's here for.

 

Unfortunatly, for the Takes No Stun, extra Body, and the Armor on the cyberlimb don't even rate a 'restrainable', let alone a focus limitation. There's nothing you can do to 'restrain' them and force you to take stun from an arm wound, without removing them completly . . . And the 'lose functionality when damaged' part of Takes No Stun aready overlaps with a big part of your 'cyberwear' limitation, if I'm reading it correctly.

 

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"Ok . . . Seein' as how we've both lost an arm, I guess we're even."

[Dr Divago]

Re: Damaging Focus

 

Of course you can copy it! Just send me royalties. LOTS of royalties. And some pie.

I'm not good in making pie...

And the 'lose functionality when damaged' part of Takes No Stun aready overlaps with a big part of your 'cyberwear' limitation' date=' if I'm reading it correctly.[/quote']Yeah, you're reading correctly...