Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

[Warp9]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

I would suggest that the argument may seek to address the issue of CAN the players be willing, but it doesn't really address SHOULD.

 

In order to establish the players SHOULD be willing to accept longer, more involved pregame chargen, you need to establish a BENEFIT commensurate with the increased effort.

 

igf we play game X with 30 mins of chargen and we consider playing game Y with 3 hours chargen, the fact that "after 100 hours of game play we have ratios of .005 vs .033" and the subjective determination that .005 is not significantly better than .033 as a ratio, only establishes (if i accept the subjective comparison) that going to the longer one won't hurt all that much in the long run. Its stating "you could without breaking your game" not "you should be willing to" at all.

 

To establish "you should be willing to" it would have to go one step more and show what positive gains were had in the longer chargen game that made the extra 2.5 hours worthwhile. What is the benefit reaped by and justifying the extra work.

 

So, if the gol is to say "you could do this" the argument starts along the way (with the conditionals of threshold not exceeded and no Gm involved.)

 

But if as you suggest the lopp theory is supposed to make the point about SHOULD, its still missing.

 

or think of it this way, if on exterminator says he will take 2 hours to fumigate your house and another says it will take 12 hours and both cost the same and both promise and deliver the same quality of results, you CAN choose to let the guy take 12 hours but why SHOULD you?

 

Now, the obvious answer from the HERO crowd is "but HERO delivers better results" but while that is their subjective consideration, its not a universal truth.

 

Final note: once you add chargen threshold in, it becomes a no-brainer comparison to me.

(for the sake of argument) Assuming that it could be proven that HERO produced better results with a longer char-gen process, would you accept the argument then?

[tesuji]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

 

I think that you're muddying the issue by bringing in personal preference (even granting that system choice is a personal prefeence).

if the preferences of players is muddying the water in a discussion about what players should prefer, then its a really odd discussion.

 

IMX the length of chargen has a direct, significant and meaningful impact on the number and type of players willing to play a game. i see enough references when discussing this with other gamers to believe this is not an isolated case of me and mine.

 

The threshold for the aformentioned casual gamer in my D&D group is 0; virtually any amount of time beyond 0 spent creating a PC is going to be too much for him and he'll lose interest. This doesn't validate complaints about systems where chargen takes more than 0 seconds.

Which means you have ONE case to consider and compare to all the others you know and the ones you consider from other discussions. is he an exceptional case in your experience or do ALL your players have a 0 tolerance?

As I said before, all this really says is that people will not have fun doing things they consider un-fun, which is a given.

even if someone tosses a theoretical formula on the internet and tells them they should? Wow! :-)

The loop model is simply pointing out where the majority of player time is spent.

But the position put forth by you takes it BEYOND that.

 

you take this loop argument and use it as follows

"This seemed relevant as a counter to the usual complaints against HERO's complexity. It's one most of us are familiar with ("The complexity is in chargen, but then in gameplay it's no biggie"), but I thought this was a good expression of it. Particularly because it's a good argument in *favor* of complexity as long as that complexity pays off in simplicity and enhanced gameplay while in the "campiagn loop". I find this very true in HERO."

 

The complaints about HERo complexity and long chargen are not in most cases i have seen that the chargen needs to be repeated a lot and takes too long (from players, from Gms it can be but you are now limiting this to only appplying to players)

 

Its not relevent as a counter to the complaints about HERo complexity because:

1: It excludes Gms and the effort/impact on them

2. it ignores the impact lengthy/complex chargen has as a threshold value.

3. it faisl to address the necessary benefit for the extra effort.

 

if this was just "hey guys, see, chargen takes up very little time overall" and not "and so from that we can use this to counter blah blah" that would probably be fine, but rather pointless.

 

The person who concocted the model then posits that there is nothing inherrently advantageous about a system that minimizes the effort invovled in chargen, particularly (in the context of his review of C&C) if said speed is a result of rules-insufficiency that can then interfere with the majority of gameplay, i.e., time spent inside the loop. What matters more is whether chargen results in a satisfying gameplay experience for those involved. This is not a heavy/"lite" issue, but a good/poor design issue, mixed in with preference.

Several key points in there, and note that you made claims as to the argument's relevence toward the complaints...

 

1. it still ignores Gm effort which does put the chargen process INSIDE the repeating loop. Maybe this is relevent then for games without GMs but i know few of those.

 

2. it still ignores thresholds, in which too lengthy a chagen blocks accrual of playtime by driving players away.

 

3. The inserted assumeption that the short, simpler chargen is married with IN PLAY PROBLEMS while the lengthy complex chargen is wed with BETTER IN GAME PLAY is specious. its the quality of the rules, not their quantity of detail of complexity which most impacts whether a game 's chargen & system produces (or rather influences) better or worse in play experience. A game with six hour chargen that has lousy rules will not NECESSARILY lead to dewer in game argumentsand derailments than a well written one with only 30 minutes of chargen.

 

Its much more a quality issue than a quantity issue.

 

I do consider it specious to use two hours as an example, however. Barring World of Synnibar (yes, I've played it) and notoriously-complex FGU games from the '80s like Chivalry & Sorcery 2e and Space Opera, I can't think of any RPGs I've had experience with where the mechanics of chargen take anywhere near two hours.

I think time varies greatly based on person and familiarity but if a theoretical person is as familiar, different systems take different times commonly.

Assuming familiarity with the system, heavier games like HERO and D&D only take minutes to make even powerful PCs, especially when one has access to tools like Hero Designer or PCGen.

For some players yes. for some character types yes. Not for all players. Not for all character types.

 

Which is why the complaints are not so easily dismissed as invalid.

What takes time is making decisions and coming up with concepts. (And, in some cases, scouring through sourcebooks, which can be said of most games on the market.)

In general i agree although for me most of the time concept takes not long at all. Now after that, then the development of background and the inevitable tweaking comes into play.

(One of the advantages to D&D is that one can bypass the concept portion of chargen. I can roll up a fighter or wizard with absolutely no knowledge of who they are as a person or what their background is. Conversely, this is impossible with both lite-er systems like Buffy and Heroquest, as well as mid-to-heavy ones like M&M, HERO, and GURPS, barring the use of templates.)

But most of those games provide templates for quick-use.

Lacking familiarity with the system will always make chargen take longer. (Ergo, why I reccomend skipping it altogether when teaching a system.) Some systems are certainly more readily-digested than others, but that's really irrelevant. If simplicity was all that mattered, Bobby Fischer would have focused on tic-tac-toe instead of chess.

 

is anyone saying simplicity is all that matters? I don't think so.

 

Instead what i hear most often is in essence their is not sufficient payoff in terms of play and enjoyment to warrant the added effort and complexity.

 

its not worth the work when i can get as much fun for a lot less effort in a simpler game with quality rules cthat fit th genre/story i am running. So, why bother?

 

if you want to convince someone to do extra work, it is usually not sufficient to merely hammer on how "its notall that much more work" but instead you need to show them they will reap more (sufficiently more) benefits from it.

[buzz]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

if the preferences of players is muddying the water in a discussion about what players should prefer' date=' then its a really odd discussion.[/quote']

The original loop model was not presented in the context of what players should prefer. It was presented within the body of a review in terms of assessing a system critically.

 

My application of the model to HERO was not to invalidate claims about preference; you can't argue preference ("Prove to me that I don't like spaghetti"). It was as a counter to claims about HERO's inherrent quality, i.e., "HERO is crap because...", not "I don't enjoy HERO because..."

 

IMX the length of chargen has a direct' date=' significant and meaningful impact on the number and type of players willing to play a game.[/quote']

It very well may, but this really has nothing to do with the quality of the game itself. Both Memoir '44 and World at War are WWII wargames. Is the former "better" becasue it's simpler than the latter? No. Will each game possibly appeal to different types of players looking for different things in their WWII wargame experience? Quite likely.

 

Which means you have ONE case to consider and compare to all the others you know and the ones you consider from other discussions. is he an exceptional case in your experience or do ALL your players have a 0 tolerance?

Simply anecdotal evidence that the threshold you're talking about can be all over the map. Barring opposite extremes, there's really no threshold you can point to and say, "RPG X is bad because it exceeds this threshold," or even "RPG X will not appeal to most people because it exceeds this threshold."

 

You've made it clear that HERO chargen exceeds your threshold. HERO's decent market share (for a non-WotC company) shows that it has not exceed that of everyone.

 

even if someone tosses a theoretical formula on the internet and tells them they should? Wow! :-)

I didn't see anyone telling people what they should do.

 

The inserted assumeption that the short' date=' simpler chargen is married with IN PLAY PROBLEMS while the lengthy complex chargen is wed with BETTER IN GAME PLAY is specious.[/quote']

This assumption is not being made.

 

Its much more a quality issue than a quantity issue.

That's the basic point.

 

But most of those games provide templates for quick-use.

For many of those games, "template" = "pregen" != "chargen".

 

is anyone saying simplicity is all that matters? I don't think so.

FWIW, that was one of the arguments the guy I'm quoting was trying to counter. It was also what Mike Mearls and Ryan Dancey were trying to counter in the thread on ENWorld that gave birth to the guy's review (and thus the quote).

 

if you want to convince someone to do extra work...

No one is trying to do that.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Wow.

 

I'm not going to quote anyone, but let me get this straight:

 

Some players are such milquetoasts that they don't have two hours to make a character? What do they need to do, check their stocks on the New York Stock Exchange? Meet the million-dollar star clients? See the governor? Singlehandedly rescue a busful of kids? Nah, probably to sit on the couch stuffing their face and chugging Mountain Dew.

 

Here's what I have to say to any player who won't play a game because of a two-hour chargen when I've spent countless hours building the campaign setting: "Take a flying ----, ---holes." Talk about your criminally short attention span.

 

That's so lazy -- SO FREAKING lazy -- it makes me want to vomit. Glad I've never met any of those people.

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Wow.

 

I'm not going to quote anyone, but let me get this straight:

 

Some players are such milquetoasts that they don't have two hours to make a character? What do they need to do, check their stocks on the New York Stock Exchange? Meet the million-dollar star clients? See the governor? Singlehandedly rescue a busful of kids? Nah, probably to sit on the couch stuffing their face and chugging Mountain Dew.

 

Here's what I have to say to any player who won't play a game because of a two-hour chargen when I've spent countless hours building the campaign setting: "Take a flying ----, ---holes." Talk about your criminally short attention span.

 

That's so lazy -- SO FREAKING lazy -- it makes me want to vomit. Glad I've never met any of those people.

 

And here Black Lotus points out that everyone without his tastes are worthless and without value- thus the debate ends up with "people who don't buy this model SUX0RZ, I R0Xx0rzZ!!!!!11"

 

I guess that was to be expected.

[buzz]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Here's what I have to say to any player who won't play a game because of a two-hour chargen when I've spent countless hours building the campaign setting...

If it's not fun for them, there's not much you can do. Ideally, a GM will assess the tastes of the players before embarking on building a campiagn. I've tried it the other way around before, and it really just ends up in frustration for both sides.

 

(And, again, chargen just doesn't take two hours. Not for any game in my collection, at least now that I've sold my copy of C&S2e. )

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

And here Black Lotus points out that everyone without his tastes are worthless and without value- thus the debate ends up with "people who don't buy this model SUX0RZ, I R0Xx0rzZ!!!!!11"

 

I guess that was to be expected.

 

First, thanks for taking the juiciest parts of my post out of context to criticize. That's a misquote without the entire post, I'm sorry. It loses all meaning when you prune it to your snide-arsed Fox1 purposes.

 

No, I demonstrate that the fact that I spent dozens of hours on a game, and a player who wants to play, but isn't willing to expend minimal effort to take part in the campaign is an ---hole. No question about it.

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

(And' date=' again, chargen just doesn't take two hours. Not for any game in my collection, at least now that I've sold my copy of C&S2e. )[/quote']

 

I beg to differ.

 

It typically takes me 3-4 hours to fully complete a HERO system character. My constructs are rather detailed and have to be balanced into a significant pre-existing world.

 

A good 1-2 hours of that time is spent with the player explaining various different approaches and how they fit into the campaign.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

If it's not fun for them, there's not much you can do. Ideally, a GM will assess the tastes of the players before embarking on building a campiagn. I've tried it the other way around before, and it really just ends up in frustration for both sides.

 

(And, again, chargen just doesn't take two hours. Not for any game in my collection, at least now that I've sold my copy of C&S2e. )

 

I know where you're coming from, but if a person can't reserve two hours for a roleplaying game -- and assuming that they want to take part in the campaign, but are scared off by chargen -- why? How can a person be so lumpy that they can't make time for a couple of hours to prepare for a game?

 

It makes me angry because it's an "instant need gratification, everything as easy for me as possible" approach, which I find extremely offensive considering how much work I -- and all GMs on this board -- put into running a game for people.

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

First' date=' thanks for taking the juiciest parts of my post out of context to criticize. That's a misquote without the entire post, I'm sorry. It loses all meaning when you prune it to your snide-arsed Fox1 purposes..[/quote']

 

I'll go back and edit it to include your entire post.

 

You still come off like an self-important ass. if anything the editing reduced it's impact along with its word count.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

I'll go back and edit it to include your entire post.

 

You still come off like an self-important ass. if anything the editing reduced it's impact along with its word count.

 

How is disliking lazy ----ers self-important? I just feel people should all contribute to an effort as best they can. Roleplaying is a group effort, not me whoring myself out for the players' gratification. If people aren't willing to do the bare minimum to take part in a game in which they have expressed interest, ---- 'em.

 

I don't feel special for being a GM. I never lord it over players. I'm just there to have fun with the group. If people don't like HERO because they don't like HERO, fine. If they don't like HERO simply because they have to spend -- OMG! -- two hours making a character, they're lazy. I wouldn't blame anyone for their RPG preferences, only for their astounding laziness. As I've said, instant-need-gratification, least-amount-of-effort-on-my-part, selfish people offend the hell out of me.

 

Oh... and YOU calling me arrogant...

 

RRRROOOOFFFFLLLLL!!!

[tesuji]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

 

The original loop model was not presented in the context of what players should prefer. It was presented within the body of a review in terms of assessing a system critically.

Whatever its original purpose was is not at issue. What is at issue for me is the role to which the poster(s) here are using it. its is simply not relevent to the mass of the complaints i have seen, heard and expressed about HERO chargen, although, as you guys now keep relimiting the selection of complaints, it does seem more relevent to a much smaller set.

 

however, the ever growing smallness of the complaint set being addressed was not made clear in the initial post on this thread. reading that post even now, i do not see that it should not be pertaining to games with a GM involved or to games where the issue is preference for chargen time as opposed to some games which claim an objective meter for chargen time.

 

 

It was as a counter to claims about HERO's inherrent quality, i.e., "HERO is crap because...", not "I don't enjoy HERO because..."

Can you point me to the mass body of these threads where people are somehow claiming hero chargen length issues are not preferences but are somehow "inherent quality"?

 

From my experience, reading these boards and others, chatting rpging etc, I RARELY see (frankly i dont recall ever seeing but maybe i forgot one) a complainer expressing it in those terms or anything close.

It very well may, but this really has nothing to do with the quality of the game itself.

Total agreement that quality and size are separate issues. Which is why linking "should try" and "more lengthy chargen" seems wrong to me. The should try hero notion fails unless you can prove aside from size that it does have those features which produce better gaming experience which seems inherent in the assumptions that this applies to hero arguments.

 

Simply anecdotal evidence that the threshold you're talking about can be all over the map. Barring opposite extremes, there's really no threshold you can point to and say, "RPG X is bad because it exceeds this threshold," or even "RPG X will not appeal to most people because it exceeds this threshold."

Agreed. But the lack of a single universal benchmark doesn't mean there aren't significant effects. For example, someone pointed out recently that on EBay current minis were selling for 3-4 times their normal price, even though they are on sale at the manufacturer. The fact that there isn't one clear price doesn't mean that if the manufacturer raises his price to the outrageous ebay price he wont be cutting his sales. Some buyers will simply look to other manufacturers who don't charge as much if he did that.

 

You've made it clear that HERO chargen exceeds your threshold. HERO's decent market share (for a non-WotC company) shows that it has not exceed that of everyone.

and you wont find me saying anything to the contrary.

I didn't see anyone telling people what they should do.

 

Read the posts on this very page...

 

But isn't it a part of the point that Players should be willing to play a game even if it has complex chargen?

 

emphasis mine.

 

Thats what he took away from the arguments on this thread. Apparently he missed the now more and more limited scope of what this thread was supposed to be about too.

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

How is disliking lazy ----ers self-important?

 

Please...

 

You've defined an entire group of gamers (those who don't like complex chargen) as "azy ----ers", condeming them in the strongest language possible that won't get you banned. And for what?

 

Because they don't like complex chargen like you do. These are people that wouldn't even *want* to play in your game.

 

People who don't play HERO are not deserving of name calling.

 

 

Take a deep breath. Walk away for a while. Talk to a neighor and pet a dog.

 

You need a change of perspective.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Please...

 

You've defined an entire group of gamers (those who don't like complex chargen) as "azy ----ers", condeming them in the strongest language possible that won't get you banned. And for what?

 

Because they don't like complex chargen like you do. These are people that wouldn't even *want* to play in your game.

 

People who don't play HERO are not deserving of name calling.

 

 

Take a deep breath. Walk away for a while. Talk to a neighor and pet a dog.

 

You need a change of perspective.

 

You misunderstand. If players have a problem with the whole FACT hat chargen is complex -- a philosophical difference of opinion -- I'm fine with it. If it's purely the fact that it takes "too long," then yes, that upsets me. Who would want to play with a GM who does absolutely no prep work because "they don't prefer that style of gameplay"? (Well... aside from stoners playing D&D for entertainment... ROFL.)

[buzz]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

A good 1-2 hours of that time is spent with the player explaining various different approaches and how they fit into the campaign.

I'm not including "conceptual" time like this, as this is usually independant of system. Once you've decided what you want to create, IME, chargen doesn't take two hours. The possible exception is knowing what you want and then scouring through a pile of sourcebooks for mechanical bits to make it happen. I see this mostly in D&D and similar games.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

I'm not including "conceptual" time like this' date=' as this is usually independant of system. Once you've decided what you want to create, IME, chargen doesn't take two hours. The possible exception is knowing what you want and then scouring through a pile of sourcebooks for mechanical bits to make it happen. I see this mostly in D&D and similar games.[/quote']

 

Yeah, I was just thinking that D&D chargen takes almost as much time as HERO chargen -- AND you have to take more time to consider which Feats/ Skills you want AND need (because of prerequisites). So all in all, after 20 character levels, I'd say players have spent far MORE time on character maintenance than a HERO gamer after a comparable number of game sessions.

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

I'm not including "conceptual" time like this' date=' as this is usually independant of system. Once you've decided what you want to create, IME, chargen doesn't take two hours. The possible exception is knowing what you want and then scouring through a pile of sourcebooks for mechanical bits to make it happen. I see this mostly in D&D and similar games.[/quote']

 

I can easily spend up to two hours per character in pure mechanical chargen in HERO.

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

You misunderstand. If players have a problem with the whole FACT hat chargen is complex -- a philosophical difference of opinion -- I'm fine with it.

 

That is type (and the only type) of long chargen under debate in this thread.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

I can easily spend up to two hours per character in pure mechanical chargen in HERO.

 

Have you ever built, say, a fully-fleshed-out Wizard 8/ Sorcerer 3 NPC from scratch for D&D? Hoooooooooooooooo boooooy.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

That is type (and the only type) of long chargen under debate in this thread.

 

Well, I'm referring to people who just can't find a couple hours to spend in chargen pre-game. If that's totally out of context to the thread, in your opinion -- or even in everyone's opinion -- feel free to ignore me.

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Have you ever built' date=' say, a fully-fleshed-out Wizard 8/ Sorcerer 3 NPC from scratch for D&D? Hoooooooooooooooo boooooy.[/quote']

 

The last edition of D&D I played was 1st edition AD&D. There such a task would be easy. I can't speak to 3rd edition.

 

Chargen of a similar PC in the current system I use for Fantasy would take less than 30 minutes. I've easily generated 5 PCs and had time for a small game in our typical weekend meetings.

 

Unless we're more interested in shooting the bull then we are rushing through chargen.

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Well' date=' I'm referring to people who just can't find a couple hours to spend in chargen pre-game. If that's totally out of context to the thread, in your opinion -- or even in everyone's opinion -- feel free to ignore me.[/quote']

 

I can't imagine a non-complex chargen *system* that would require two hours.

[buzz]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

...although' date=' as you guys now keep relimiting the selection of complaints, it does seem more relevent to a much smaller set.[/quote']

I didn't see that I was relimiting anything, barring aknowledgement that, yes, the loop model is very player-centric. You're focusing on preference, and the original quote and my commentary wasn't really talking about preference. ("Complaints about complexity", not "complaints that they don't enjoy playing HERO".)

 

Can you point me to the mass body of these threads where people are somehow claiming hero chargen length issues are not preferences but are somehow "inherent quality"?

I could point you to just about any HERO thread on RPG.net and many of the "HERO vs. M&M" threads I've seen you (and myself) in before where, intentional or no, people made objective statements ("System X is crap because") rather than subjective ones ("I don't enjoy X becasue"). The whole impetus of the ENWorld thread that started this was countering the assertion that "lite" is inherrently better design (which originated on Mearls' blog, if you want to read it).

 

From my experience' date=' reading these boards and others, chatting rpging etc, I RARELY see (frankly i dont recall ever seeing but maybe i forgot one) a complainer expressing it in those terms or anything close. [/quote']

IME, it's usually someone trying to tell me why I'm not really having fun, because HERO (or D&D, or whatever) "is bad" (or "can't do") in such-and-such ways.

 

Which is why linking "should try" and "more lengthy chargen" seems wrong to me.

FWIW, I have not been asserting that the loop model is a rationale why people "should try" HERO.

 

Agreed. But the lack of a single universal benchmark doesn't mean there aren't significant effects.

No argument there. Complexity (real or perceived) and required effort can be off-putting.

 

Read the posts on this very page...

Things did get awful heated all of a sudden.

 

Thats what he took away from the arguments on this thread. Apparently he missed the now more and more limited scope of what this thread was supposed to be about too.

Actually, I think it was you who widened the scope, and now I'm trying to bring it back to where I think I started.

[buzz]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

I can easily spend up to two hours per character in pure mechanical chargen in HERO.

Does the system require you to take up to two hours, though? Or is this just trying different builds?

 

The only systems I've played where the required bookkeeping steps took a huge amount of time were Synnibar (*shudder*) and C&S2e, particularly when rolling up a mage.

 

HERO, otoh, especially with access to HD, just takes me minutes assuming I know what I'm building. If I don't, or I'm looking for the best ways to reflect a concept, then, yes, it can take longer. This is the flipside of flexibility (or crunchy flexibility, a la HERO and GURPS, at least).

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Does the system require you to take up to two hours' date=' though? Or is this just trying different builds?[/quote']

 

I'm my own enemy here.

 

Lots of different builds, lots of time staring at various drafts running play tests in my mind, swapping out clumsy wording or construction for something that is smoother.

 

And then if it's a character that will see repeated use, I repeat the process in a kind of 'review pass' every so often in case something new occurs to me.

 

 

 

So I would have to agree, a quick design using HD or a spreadsheet would not take two hours. But such a design wouldn't be a warm fuzzy for me either.