Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

[buzz]

I saw this interesting tidbit in an ENWorld review of Castles & Crusades:

 

I’m a computer programmer by trade. To be a good computer programmer, you have to write efficient programs. If you write a program that processes a million records, and it does this inside a loop, anything that doesn’t add value inside that loop just eats up time as it is processed. In a million loops, unnecessary processing can end up wasting a lot of time. Let’s consider the basic model of an RPG:

 

Build_characters() ;

Do {

Play_the_game() ;

If (TPK)

end_of_campaign = true ;

}

While ! (end_of_campaign) ;

 

That’s it in a nutshell. Obviously, there are other factors that can cause “end_of_campaign†to be true, like people moving away, or one of your players having an affair with your wife. An individual character can die in the middle of a game, so that player will have to build a new character in the middle of the campaign as well. Hopefully that doesn’t happen often. The point I’m trying to make is this: things that happen outside of the loop only get executed once. Character creation doesn’t *need* to be a 15 minute process. It can take 3 hours, and it doesn’t affect the speed of the inner loop – the campaign loop. It’s nice when it *can* happen quickly. Like if Joe gets eaten by Beholder 1 hour into Saturday night’s game, it might be nice if Joe can come back in with a new character before 1 am. But this doesn’t happen very often (character death in the middle of a game, that is; Beholders eat people all the freaking time). There is very little value add in shortening the character creation process because it really has little affect on the actual game play.

This seemed relevant as a counter to the usual complaints against HERO's complexity. It's one most of us are familiar with ("The complexity is in chargen, but then in gameplay it's no biggie"), but I thought this was a good expression of it. Particularly because it's a good argument in *favor* of complexity as long as that complexity pays off in simplicity and enhanced gameplay while in the "campiagn loop". I find this very true in HERO.

 

I find that, by the time I'm done with creating a HERO PC, I know it like the back of my hand. Every capability is spelled out in very exacting terms, and I know very explicitly how said capabilties interact with other characters' and the game environment.

 

Anyway, I just thought this was a nifty observation.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Yes, this basic outlook sums up my views on character creation as well -- the best form of character creation is one that removes as many decisions and confusion from actual play as possible.

 

The problem is, that is a very logical way of thinking of things and few people are very logical.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

i totally agree. For the sci fi game i'm in, we made characters as early as november and didn't play till jan, so everyone spent literally months figuring out what their personality was like and building their character just right.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

The problem is' date=' that is a very logical way of thinking of things and few people are very logical.[/quote']Repped.

 

I also agree. To my way of thinking, the more detailed (or better defined, or however you want to say it) a character is made via the chargen process, the less time in gameplay is taken up with figuring out what the character can/should do.

 

On a tangent, this dichotomy might also play a role if Hero ever reaches a point where the core rules have to be split into two books, purely from a practicality standpoint. 5ER is pretty huge already, and has reached the point (in my experience) where it's occasionally difficult to locate the answer to a specific question, simply because there's so much data there to search through.

 

So if the rules do ever need to be split into two volumes, one useful approach might be one volume for Stuff That You Use Mostly Outside The Game Session (i.e., the character creation material), and one volume for Stuff You Use Mostly During The Game Session (i.e., combat rules, etc.),

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

i find the Index in HERO fifth edition revised to be critical, and it's much better than for example DnD

[prestidigitator]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

What about us poor friggin' GMs?

 

do
{
  buildCharacter();
} until (campaignSettingDone());

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

ok, yes I can definately see how the time it takes to make a character is irrelevent and cleans up issues. I'll agree this is true for PCs.

 

It is not always true for NPCs. It should not take me a year to make the characters for a couple sessions.

 

Now don't get me wrong, I love how simple it is to play a character once they are made. And I perfectly agree with players taking all the time they need to make their chracters so that they are compeltely laid out in every necesary detail and how that doesn't negatively effect game play at all once it starts. I love how the flow is so smooth once everything falls into place.

 

I just wish it was a little simpler to actually make a character. Or that my brain could more easily convert the world that I dream up to one that is actually translatable to HERO. Cause as it is, I've spent the better half of the summer trying to make NPCs for my upcoming game, and I have maybe a handful.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

I agree with the ENWorlder's post. What a well-thought-out statement.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

I just wish it was a little simpler to actually make a character. Or that my brain could more easily convert the world that I dream up to one that is actually translatable to HERO. Cause as it is' date=' I've spent the better half of the summer trying to make NPCs for my upcoming game, and I have maybe a handful.[/quote']

 

You have the same problem as converting from any media, like book to film. It takes a while and is hard, and you lose stuff along the way. same deal (but you're doing a good job keeping close to the original material)

[buzz]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

It is not always true for NPCs. It should not take me a year to make the characters for a couple sessions.

It doesn't have to. There are just two things you need to remember:

 

1.) Use published material. HERO has many "bestiaries" for each of its major genres, not to mention the FH grimoires, the USPD, etc.. There also lots of character archives out on the Web. Even if what you find is not exactly what you need, it's likely close enough to modify with minimal effort.

 

2.) NPCs don't always need to add up. All you need to stat out is what characteristics and powers are relevant to the scenario: SPD, BODY, STUN, CV, notable CHR rolls, powers, skills, and relevant distads. And you can just assign appropriate values; you don't have to go through the actual chargen process. At least not for every single NPC. Save the full-blown chargen for the big NPCs who will be recurring characters in the campiagn.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

the only problem is there aren't any pregens I can use for the bulk of these characters. For characters that don't matter sure. But for my Ketera, no way. I don't like th pregens for most of the monsters either, and I do own the beastiary.

 

I have tried to use archived characters. It usually takes a day or two to convert them even if they are the "right" thing. I found an Alien (like from the movie) premade that needed retweaking and spent a day and a half redoing it.

 

I am only doing the minimal for my NPCs, and they aren't stacking up points wise. It's the power creation that's hard.

 

Since it is based on a preexisting world that I designed years ago it is very very hard to translate into hero to my satisfaction. It doesn't help that this is a very high powered game either...most of my NPCs are 600-2200 points. And unfortunately they have to be.

 

AND since it's not a normal campaign, IE no party, and characters can go where ever they want whenever they want and create the story around each of them, any character that apprea must be ready to at least be semi reoccuring. I know I made myself a monster, but, I'm finding this system extrememly hard to create it in.

 

....though I love it so *hugs collection of HERO books*

 

For everything other than NPC generation I love this system and agree with the post you found whole heartedly. It's just sometimes frustrating. Not that I'll let that discurage me.

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

the only problem is there aren't any pregens I can use for the bulk of these characters.

 

I find all the publish pregens to be useless. Frankly they are just plain build wrong for the style in which I use HERO.

 

Very much a case of Strength=Weakness. I can get to nearly the exact style of play I want in many settings, but at the cost of having to go it alone. Such is the nature of construction style rules.

 

In any event, the 'generate once', play a million times is a player PoV- not a GM's one. And it's really at the GM level that it truly matters.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

In any event' date=' the 'generate once', play a million times is a player PoV- not a GM's one. And it's really at the GM level that it truly matters.[/quote']

Maybe. In the interest of introducing new players to the system it is generally the players' PoV that is most important as the GM often knows it quite well. I find this to be the place where system complexity is most dangerous; new players can become daunted, but existing players and GMs (in general) tend to be pretty comfortable and happy with the system no matter its complexities.

 

I was being a little facetious in my previous post.

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Maybe. In the interest of introducing new players to the system it is generally the players' PoV that is most important as the GM often knows it quite well. .

 

Depends upon one's players. I find they break into two basic groups (doesn't everything?).

 

There are those who love playing with the rules. HERO is prefect for this group, lots to play with.

 

There are those who want to play the game, not the rules. HERO is fine for these except for chargen- something that such players can off load to the GM: "Give me a character sort of like Beast Boy, but it's female with this personnality and isn't green".

 

 

So frankly, I consider the player PoV to meaningless. If they are in group 1, they will like HERO on its own terms or not. If they are in group 2, all the 'work' falls on me.

 

I think any problems with chargen that exist comes from one of two sources- GMs that *force* HERO chargen on players who would rather not, and players who *want* to master chargen in HERO- but who suck at it. Neither group is of any interest to me whatever.

[austenandrews]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Right, the problem here is that for a game system to thrive, it must be able to attract new players. Necessarily complex character generation daunts new players. It can also be daunting to experienced players who don't have a lot of time. And it makes short-runs & one-shots less attractive.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Depends upon one's players. I find they break into two basic groups (doesn't everything?).

 

There are those who love playing with the rules. HERO is prefect for this group, lots to play with.

 

There are those who want to play the game, not the rules. HERO is fine for these except for chargen- something that such players can off load to the GM: "Give me a character sort of like Beast Boy, but it's female with this personnality and isn't green".

 

 

So frankly, I consider the player PoV to meaningless. If they are in group 1, they will like HERO on its own terms or not. If they are in group 2, all the 'work' falls on me.

 

I think any problems with chargen that exist comes from one of two sources- GMs that *force* HERO chargen on players who would rather not, and players who *want* to master chargen in HERO- but who suck at it. Neither group is of any interest to me whatever.

Damn! You're mean!

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

....though I love it so *hugs collection of HERO books*

 

lucky hero books , you should post a finished ketera online when you get one!

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

and players who *want* to master chargen in HERO- but who suck at it.

 

what do you mean by this? players who haven't gotten the neuances down? or people who min-max but badly? or what?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

So if the rules do ever need to be split into two volumes, one useful approach might be one volume for Stuff That You Use Mostly Outside The Game Session (i.e., the character creation material), and one volume for Stuff You Use Mostly During The Game Session (i.e., combat rules, etc.),

 

Agreed. Here is a breakdown of the book I did on RPG.Net in the past; it's pretty clear that a "CharGen" and "RunTime" seperation would be very doable.

 

One thing that keeps cropping up is people sometimes refer to reading the book. I suppose some people think they are supposed to start at page one and read to page 577 (578-590 being the index, and 591 & 2 being a character sheet). I guess you could do that. I dont know if I would or not; I learned from the old 4th Edition HERO #500 -- the generic rules only book which was much smaller than the current iteration of the rule book; about 1/3 the size or less.

 

Personally, I use the book as a reference. It's more like an Encyclopedia of Rules to me.

 

In fact, allow me to break the book down.

 

The 1st 22 pages are intro, and thats including the contents and coversheet.

 

24 thru 344 are Character Creation. So half the book essentially is just about how to make your character(s). Minus out some sample characters and some pages at the beginning that youll only ever read once, and you are looking at 310 pages on characteristics, skills, perks, talents, powers, and disadvantages -- the elements of a HERO character. Powers alone are covered from pages 93 to 324, so 231 pages, with sidebars.

 

So obviously, if the book is about 550 pages of actual content (not counting table of contents, intros, index, blank character sheets, or full page art spreads), then over 1/3 of the book is just coverage for how to build Powers.

 

Are you meant to read this section from front to back? No. Read the bit at the beginning of each element that explains what a Power or a Skill or a whatever is, and some general rules regarding their use and then make your character. Each section has a list at the beggining, so as you make your character simply look at the list and see whats available that sounds like it might be relevant, then look up the actual description of the ability.

 

Thats a basic character design trick, and Ive designed characters in a couple dozen game systems using the exact same method. If Im making a character with Flight, I dont really need to know what Mental Illusions. After youve made a few characters with different abilities, youll already have a working understanding of how to make characters. You can pick it up as you go. This is true of the GM as well, save the addition that he needs to know what all the Players can do too -- still not a problem; simply read their sheets and look up anything you dont know about yet.

 

Further, if you read the Powers section, youll see that for the most part there is maybe a couple paragraphs for a Power explaining its basic purpose and how to use it. Then if necessary it goes on to clarify any unusual cases or circumstances, how the Power interacts with other Powers and Modifiers, and so forth. The kind of thing you'd normally have to go scour a FAQ for, Ask a Sage and hope to get an answer within a year, seek counsel from a more experienced GM on, or just guess at. In fact, thats where most of the extra bulk of Fifth Edition Revised comes from -- it incorporates the Rules FAQ generated from the original Fifth Edition. Thats a very handy feature when you need to know something in a pinch or when designing a character.

 

Pages 348 to 402 cover Combat in two halves -- setting up Combat, and actually resolving Combat. The Combat engine itself is 370 to 402 and if you for some reason didnt want to use any of the Optional Manuevers or Martial Arts, its 370 to 374.

 

Yes, thats right, the entire Combat engine of this monstrous book can be pared down to 4 essential pages, with charts and a full column art piece. Perhaps 2.5 pages of actual text. Pages 375 to 383 explain the Manuevers and modifiers that appear on the lists. Explanations of the Optional Manuevers and Martial Arts finish out the section from 383 to 402.

 

Unsuprisingly its a very simple combat model and is easy to implement. Any GM should be able to read that section and have a working knowledge of how to structure combat. The challenge of running a HERO Game isnt the basic flow of combat -- its adjudicating the somewhat unique combination of abilities each character represents, determining how various SFX's interact, and keeping track of salient numbers such as BODY, END, and STUN. The combat engine itself just kind of chugs along like the little train that could however.

 

Pages 403 to 418 cover how to resolve damage, with various levels of genre-appropriate lethality and such things as Knockback vs Knockdown and an option to use Hit Locations instead of generalized damage. Basically, understand the difference between Normal and Killing damage and beyond that this is a settings panel; decide what settings you want on for your campaign and youre done.

 

Pages 422 to 423 describe unusual "damage" such as being restrained, being deprived of senses, and things of that nature.

 

Pages 424 thru 427 deal effectively with fatigue (though it isnt called that in the HERO System).

 

Pages 428 and 429 explain a concept unique to the HERO System TTBOMK, the Presense Attack, which is a free mechanic usable by all characters to frighten, impress, or rally others (and similar).

 

Page 430 to 431 is a sample combat.

 

Page 434 to 454 covers the Environment.

 

Page 456 to 488 covers Equipment. This includes rules to handle Vehicles, Bases, Computers, AIs, and Automatons (things like robots, zombies, and golems)

 

Page 490 to 540 covers using the HERO System for various Genres. Covered are: Champions, Cyberpunk, Fantasy, Martial Arts, Action Adventure, Pulp, SciFi, Horror, Post-Apocalyptic, Swashbuckling, Victorian, Western. Twelve sample characters are included.

 

Page 542 to 556 covers Gamemastering the HERO System. General advice useful for the novice GM, mostly skimmable for experienced GMs. The only key info here is the awarding Experience section.

 

Page 558 to 568 covers making changes to the system to suit yourself. So 10 pages of the book are just about how to scrap things you dont like or add things you think should be included. The basic design principles of the game (the meta-rules) are exposed here, and some coverage is give towards understanding the ripple effect changing a key mechanic might cause.

 

Page 570 to 572 give a capsule history of the HERO System and it's iterations, informative for a new player and a neat bit.

 

Finally 573 to 577 gives size templates for characters/creatures that are larger or smaller than normal all the time (as opposed to characters that can alter their size via a Power but are normal sized otherwise).

 

The book is completed with the aforementioned index (which is very good) and a sample blank character sheet.

 

 

 

I think it's pretty obvious that the book isnt layed out or intended to be read cover to cover, but rather in sections as needed. It's a reference book, basically, not a novel like some rulebooks seem to think they should be. Some people like that kind of no nonsense approach, others want fluff and flavor text. It's really nothing more than a preference.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

I think there's two approachs the CharGen with hero.

 

The Player

Long, involved, thought out, points have to work out.

 

The GM

How much damage, toss on some adders, figure some basic stats, go. what are points?

or for involved NPCs - see Player. (if you have to do it in sessions do as above and flesh out everything afterwards.) If you have warning... you should have at least a good outline.

 

Hero Designer cuts hours, literally, off of the design process for the simple fact that not only does it do the Math for you but changing something takes mere moments. The right tool for the right job.

 

Of course, each character is different - I've had characters completed in moments that were great on the initial build, and then I've had some that have taken tweak after tweak over weeks of time.

 

I personally prefer the more involved process, allow for more detail thus making each creation unique unto itself. Like art.

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Damn! You're mean!

 

Always

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

what do you mean by this? players who haven't gotten the neuances down? or people who min-max but badly? or what?

 

It could be any number of things. Bad designs, incorrect use of the rules, wrong style characters for the campaign. Whatever. The specific problem doesn't matter.

 

All that matter is that you have players who can't seem to get what they want out of the time spent creating their characters- but who insist on creating those characters anyway.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

I like working with those kinds of chracters and helping them get what they like out of it. I wont ever make a character for someone else, if I do help it becomes a joint experience with the player involved at everystep.

 

It is particularly rewarding when after a few days of work the player can look at thier character sheet and say "Yes, this is what I wanted."

 

I dunno, it makes me feel good inside. Honestly I'd rather have them then the too serious or too focused gamer. It makes the whole thing seem more personal and close nit. More like you're a group of friends around a campfire telling stories together, than an evil dictator mandating events.

[CourtFool]

templates ~ classes

 

I believe the problem of character generation can be lessened for players with a little extra work on the GM. At least once. If your players just want simple class selection with a few feat/skill/spell selections then design some templates for them.

 

Fantasy Hero has some great templates in them so that would cut the work down for the GM.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

It seems to me that the length and complexity of character creation is directly proportionate to the amount of control the player has over his character. If he only needs to make a few broad choices with preset templates -- class, race, profession, etcetera -- the process goes fairly quickly. If the player makes almost all conceptual and factual decisions on his own, it takes much longer.

 

Can't have your cake and eat it, too; the more customized the character, the longer the process takes, and vice versa.