Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

It seems to me that the length and complexity of character creation is directly proportionate to the amount of control the player has over his character.

 

Not true. Some very rule light game designs provide complete control of the character to the player.

 

I've also seen very complex character generation methods that gave the owning player no control. Heavily chart driven, the result is random chargen to the max.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Not true. Some very rule light game designs provide complete control of the character to the player.

 

Yes, but these aren't very complex characters. I should know, having played BESM and other rules-lite systems before.

 

I've also seen very complex character generation methods that gave the owning player no control. Heavily chart driven' date=' the result is random chargen to the max.[/quote']

 

How does this disprove my theory about HERO? There will always be crap systems out there. That's why I play HERO. Which system are you talking about, by the way?

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Yes' date=' but these aren't very complex characters. I should know, having played BESM and other rules-lite systems before.[/quote']

 

Then according to the designers and fans of such systems- you must have played them wrong.

 

Some of these systems allow the owning player to define and redefine the character on the fly, deciding what it can and cannot do at anytime in response to specific needs.

 

You can't get more player control than that. The player actually controls the rules that govern the character.

 

 

 

How does this disprove my theory about HERO? There will always be crap systems out there. That's why I play HERO.

 

I like the ego driven judgement you make here.

 

There are many who would call HERO crap, and they are doing the same leap you are. Assuming their opinion about another game design has objective value for anyone but the speaker.

 

For what its worth, I see the appeal of such system although I don't use them myself.

[Silbeg]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

AND since it's not a normal campaign, IE no party, and characters can go where ever they want whenever they want and create the story around each of them, any character that apprea must be ready to at least be semi reoccuring. I know I made myself a monster, but, I'm finding this system extrememly hard to create it in.

 

I would handle this with a trusty notebook (real or electronic), where I have characters in various stages of being flushed out. When the characters first encounter an NPC, you don't necessarily have to know everything about the character, nor do your players. Flush out what you need on the fly (possibly by having a second notebook full of "ideas in progress"), and then go back additional times to fill in additional details that you missed on the "quick and dirty".

 

Example:

The PC runs into Feedback, a mercenary superhero who uses the sonic powers. For the original "Marvel Mixup" encounter, you give him a couple of iconic powers, including a powerful Sonic EB, and a Sonic (Hearing) Flash. Putting those together, with some basics (OCV/DCV, DEF, etc), you have enough to have an initial encounter (especially one that you don't want to end in a defeat by either side).

 

Later, when the PC encounters Feedback again (and you have had some additional time to futz with him), he has a more rounded-out power set, including different types of EBs, predefined uses of sonic images, skills, schticks, etc.

 

The more the characters interact with Feedback, the more color you give to him, and the more complete his character sheet.

[Silbeg]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

It could be any number of things. Bad designs, incorrect use of the rules, wrong style characters for the campaign. Whatever. The specific problem doesn't matter.

 

All that matter is that you have players who can't seem to get what they want out of the time spent creating their characters- but who insist on creating those characters anyway.

 

The biggest problem in my FPCA campaign seems to be players that are making characters that really don't match their preferred playing style (read "player template"). Example: if a player prefers to charge headlong into every combat, rolling large handfuls of dice, etc,. shouldn't be playing a more reactive, fragile martial artist...

 

With HERO, it is not that hard to create a character that becomes more complicated to run than it is worth. Typically, when I help a player build a character, I look to "packages" or "modes" that the character can operate in (groupings of slots in an MP, for example), so that in game decisions can be made more easily. Some players don't think along those lines, though...

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

I would handle this with a trusty notebook (real or electronic)' date=' where I have characters in various stages of being flushed out. When the characters first encounter an NPC, you don't necessarily have to know [i']everything[/i] about the character, nor do your players.

 

Some gamers find this type of 'retconning' unacceptable. For those, complex chargen imposes a serious load.

 

I myself don't fall into their number, although I am amused that so many who champion the cause of complex and detailed chargen end up 'winging' so much as a result. Reminds me of the old saying "eyes bigger than your Stomach?".

[buzz]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Since it is based on a preexisting world that I designed years ago it is very very hard to translate into hero to my satisfaction. It doesn't help that this is a very high powered game either...most of my NPCs are 600-2200 points. And unfortunately they have to be.

 

AND since it's not a normal campaign, IE no party, and characters can go where ever they want whenever they want and create the story around each of them, any character that apprea must be ready to at least be semi reoccuring. I know I made myself a monster, but, I'm finding this system extrememly hard to create it in.

FWIW, it seems like this particular campiagn would be a good amount of work regardless of system. These parameters seem fairly "high-maintenance", as it were. This is not a fault, just an observation.

[buzz]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Necessarily complex character generation daunts new players.

IMO, I don't think that this is a given. It also depends on whether "new player" means "someone new to roleplaying" or "someone new to the RPG in question".

[buzz]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Not true. Some very rule light game designs provide complete control of the character to the player.

Though, one could argue (and I have been on ENWorld) that lite RPGs tend towards relying on GM fiat, which inherrently takes away control from the player. E.g., Dynamic Magic in BESM/SAS/Tri-Stat is basically defined as "the player can create any effect they want, as long as the GM feels it fits within the power level they've paid ponts for."

 

Not that I want to start a big lite-vs-heavy debate, but I don't think that there's an inherrent superiority in this area that has to do with rules-quantity or complexity. A lite game may have a mechanic that gives the player a lot of say in the narrative flow of the game, or it maybe a glorified "Mother may I" exercise. A heavy game may provide incredible detail and PC control, or it may be an exercise in rolling on a lot of tables.

[Tae Kwon Dan]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

IMO' date=' I don't think that this is a given. It also depends on whether "new player" means "someone new to roleplaying" or "someone new to the RPG in question".[/quote']

 

Excellent point! HERO was only somewhat daunting to me, because it moved out of my comfort zone, but when I really started learning it about 2 years ago it helped that I had been gaming for 10+ years at that point. However we have a guy we're trying to add to the Dark Champions group we're getting going that has really only ever played d20 and even then we've had to help him out a lot as he's an RPG newbie. HERO was much more daunting to him, but even then that wasn't entirely the systems fault. The guy trying to explain character creation spent more time on how different CharGen is in HERO from other systems then going with a comfort zone of how similar it is to any CharGen system.

 

Personally I think folks forget that there is a large variation in scale between most starting HERO characters and starting characters in other genres. A 350 points super is more like an epic D&D character than a starting one. I would argue that fleshing out a 25 level well multi-classed D&D character is just as much of a chore as making a solid 350 blaster or gadgeteer.

 

I think this holds true at lower point totals as well. 150 point fantasy HERO characters shouldn't take too much longer than a well thought of 3rd or 4th level D&D character either. A 75 point normal shouldn't take much longer than your Call of Cthulhu character takes in the Chaosium system.

 

If anything I think I spend more time on the fleshing out my idea for HERO, because I know I'm not trying to make classes fit my concept, but instead just making a concept.

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

A 75 point normal shouldn't take much longer than your Call of Cthulhu character takes in the Chaosium system.

 

I find that the point total has little to no impact on how it takes me to me to fully create a character unless we're going really low-end, i.e. under 50 points.

[buzz]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

I find that the point total has little to no impact on how it takes me to me to fully create a character unless we're going really low-end' date=' i.e. under 50 points.[/quote']

Getting the ideas together in the first place is my big hurdle. With Hero Designer, making PCs of any point total is pretty quick. Filling the "Background" field is what takes me hours.

 

And ironically, this means HERO chargen is often much faster for me than for D&D, as there has yet to be a tool for D&D/d20 that works as well as HD. I find that D&D PCs of any level ahve me scouring different books for feats and magic items as well, something I do far less with HERO.

[buzz]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

The guy trying to explain character creation spent more time on how different CharGen is in HERO from other systems then going with a comfort zone of how similar it is to any CharGen system.

I've run HERO events twice at ENWorld gamedays, and only one player total was familiar with HERO before playing. Ergo, I have to explain the basics before we can even start. The keys for newbies are:

• Starting in a heroic setting (less powers, less points, less dice)
  
• Giving them the two-page combat summary from the Free Stuff page
  
• Wholly ignoring chargen and points at first.
  
• Boiling down HERO to the basics: You roll 3d6 to determine success and want to roll low, you roll Xd6 for effect and want to roll high. 3 is a crit and 18 is a fumble. There's normal damamge and killing damage.
  

This method has so far resulted in one person each game buying a copy of Sidekick.

 

Honestly, someone's first introduction to a system should never be chargen. They should get to play it first.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

There are many who would call HERO crap' date=' and they are doing the same leap you are. Assuming their opinion about another game design has objective value for anyone but the speaker.[/quote']

 

I've played -- and GMed -- every other major system, and many minor ones. I am fully qualified to make a judgement on them. Obviously, I won't speak for systems I haven't played, and obviously, it's my opinion.

 

You're just retorting this way to get my goat, though, I suspect. There's no question in my mind that a character creation system which:

 

A.) is long, drawn-out and complex, and

B.) still offers the player little control over their character

 

is a crap system.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

I am aware I've made a monster, and that's ok. And it will be a lot of maintnece and that's ok too. I'm just happy I have two tech GMs to help.

 

Honestly, someone's first introduction to a system should never be chargen. They should get to play it first.

 

now, that I can't *always* agree with. A lot of the times sure, especially if they already have roleplaying expereince.

 

I started with this game less than a year ago, I had never roleplayed before. I did have 5 years theare experience and awards for storytelling, which helps make me a decent roleplayer (so far as I have been told). I have a lot of friends who roleplay and decided to give it a try. And, I requested to build my own character as a way to learn the powers creation system and get a better feel for what was going on. I would not have been satisfied with having my character made for me, and that's one of the things I never liked about DnD, because the characters seemed so cookiecutter esq. My first HS character was a 200 point baby dragon, not a normal frist start at all. I'm all the better for having made her. If I hadn't I would not have gotten so invested in the system, I would have just said, "oh, nice game." and the overwhelming choices and possibilities would have escaped me. I probubly would have never thought twice about the system, and writtin it off as another thing to do once in a blue moon.

 

But then to me the character generation was the most important part of the game. I was always under the impression that having a deep well thought out character was the whole point of roleplaying, that as players we were supposed to assume the role of the individual we chose to play. How can I play the game if I have not created a role to play, wich satisfies me?

 

I gues I feel like accepting a character hat I did not at least help create is like letting someone else choose the path I should take with my life =P

 

But for people who don't want to get that into the game a pregen character is fine. And it makes things easier on the GM as well. It cuts time in preparations and has many other good features. But with some players, playig the game isn't the most important part, and they wont be satisfied with skipping this stage.

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

You're just retorting this way to get my goat, though, I suspect. There's no question in my mind that a character creation system which:

 

A.) is long, drawn-out and complex, and

B.) still offers the player little control over their character

 

is a crap system.

 

I think one can deduce that your mind does not share this point in common with many gamers.

 

It's a simple fact that there are people who hold the exact reverse of your mindset on this issue.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

I think one can deduce that your mind does not share this point in common with many gamers.

 

It's a simple fact that there are people who hold the exact reverse of your mindset on this issue.

 

What, that you can spend forever building a character, and still not have it turn out to be exactly what you wanted? If that's some peoples' preference, more power to them, but....

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

What' date=' that you can spend forever building a character, and still not have it turn out to be exactly what you wanted? If that's some peoples' preference, more power to them, but....[/quote']

 

But what? It not your style, sure. But it is their's.

 

I myself fall somewhat inbetween. I like complex systems period- and do like some elements of chargen is such system to be out of my control.

 

But it's only for some settings, and only in part.

 

Even so, I see their point. And some of the results are every bit as interesting as any tailor created one.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

But what? It not your style, sure. But it is their's.

 

I myself fall somewhat inbetween. I like complex systems period- and do like some elements of chargen is such system to be out of my control.

 

But it's only for some settings, and only in part.

 

Even so, I see their point. And some of the results are every bit as interesting as any tailor created one.

 

Could you give me an example of one of the systems in question? I'm really curious. Whatever it is, there's a good chance I've played it. I'd understand the concept a lot better if I had a name to put it to.

[Tae Kwon Dan]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

I personally prefer total control, but at the same time getting a grab bag of abilities and then trying to turn it into a cogent character could be quite fun as its own exercise to me. Not something I would want to do every weekend, but I could see it being entertaining.

 

I think there's a cavalcade of Rolemaster players out there that agree with this standpoint.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

It's a simple fact that there are people who hold the exact reverse of your mindset on this issue.

 

 

I think that it pretty much sums up most arguments, and how to end them. Everyone should take this advice and accept the fact there there is really mre than one way to think about something and for the most part more than one answer to most questions. Even you. Afterall, these are just opinions.

 

personally I would agree that a system in which I spent forever working on a chracter and could not build something that fit what I wanted is a bad system. But then I believe any system where I can not make a character the way I want it is bad, regaurdless of the length of the process. That's why I choose not to play other systems that people have offered to expose me too.

 

And that's why I choose hero. I can make whatever I want. I just have to figure out how and put in the time.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

 

I think that it pretty much sums up most arguments, and how to end them. Everyone should take this advice and accept the fact there there is really mre than one way to think about something and for the most part more than one answer to most questions. Even you. Afterall, these are just opinions.

 

I agree, but one can measure the benefits and drawbacks of a thing in an objective manner. For example, most human beings prefer comfort to pain, so I can objectively determine that I'd rather sit in a pampasan chair than sleep on a bed of nails -- and so would most human beings. Similarly, I feel that I can objectively measure certain advantages and disadvantages of various roleplaying systems. If you put a lot into character creation, and don't get a lot back for your effort....

 

*shrug* But I'm still waiting for an example system to think about.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

I agree, but one can measure the benefits and drawbacks of a thing in an objective manner. For example, most human beings prefer comfort to pain, so I can objectively determine that I'd rather sit in a pampasan chair than sleep on a bed of nails -- and so would most human beings. Similarly, I feel that I can objectively measure certain advantages and disadvantages of various roleplaying systems. If you put a lot into character creation, and don't get a lot back for your effort....

 

*shrug* But I'm still waiting for an example system to think about.

 

I would agree with you (hence the rest of my post) I just think that people should listen to the advice they give...and try to be open minded when they request openmindedness from others

 

EDIT: I am curious about the system fox is talking about as well. I have a lot of older friends that have been gaming much longer than I, more than half my lifetime longer. So I'll probubly go ask them about it.

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Could you give me an example of one of the systems in question? I'm really curious. Whatever it is' date=' there's a good chance I've played it. I'd understand the concept a lot better if I had a name to put it to.[/quote']

 

Just about any game that involves random generation of one or more parts of the character start to fall into that concept. If they then use extensive amounts of math (Aftermath), or using that generation as a springboard for significant choices (D&D feats)- they are complex chargen methods that remove player choice (compare to total choice of systems like HERO).

 

D&D for example randomly generates your starting stats. Character generation thereafter for a post-1st level character is viewed as complex by many, even by some HERO users on this very board.

 

C&S and Aftermath were even stronger examples of this type, as is the homegrown rules I use for my fantasy campaign (best use a spreadsheet, the math is too much to keep straight otherwise).

 

Some of these games layered in "life path" concepts, in which extensive tables were rolled on in various order to determine modifers and history that would directly impact the numbers in chargen. Traveler was the first of these if the easiest, a system where the player didn't even control if his character lived to play the game.

 

There were life path *books* produced that were intended to add to any other game system- thereby removing player control and increasing complexity at the same time.

[Tae Kwon Dan]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

I have never played it, but isn't Rolemaster almost completely random in terms of CharGen and involves tons of charts?