Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

To clarify' date=' the position this guy put forth is not that the length of time it takes to create a character is irrelevant, ergo we should all be happy to have chargen take forever, but, conversely, that [i']fast[/i] is not inherrently good, and lengthy is not inherrently bad.

 

Considering that I like spending hours working on a character just because I do, I think this goes without saying.

 

Nor does this point require a flawed loop model to be made.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

To clarify' date=' the position this guy put forth is not that the length of time it takes to create a character is irrelevant, ergo we should all be happy to have chargen take forever, but, conversely, that [i']fast[/i] is not inherrently good, and lengthy is not inherrently bad. And stating that "if it's not fun, then it's not fun" pretty much goes without saying.

 

completely agree

[buzz]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Nor does this point require a flawed loop model to be made.

The context of the example is player-centric, and for that it works pretty well. Sometimes even obvious things need to be pointed out.

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

The context of the example is player-centric' date=' and for that it works pretty well. Sometimes even obvious things need to be pointed out.[/quote']

 

I would agree with that.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Nor does this point require a flawed loop model to be made.

 

It's not flawed. It's a good model. Chargen takes place outside of the loop, for the most part, meaning that it's not a significant aspect of gameplay. Since gameplay is arguably the more important aspect, the amount of time spent with chargen becomes trivial in comparison.

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

It's not flawed. It's a good model. Chargen takes place outside of the loop' date=' for the most part, meaning that it's not a significant aspect of gameplay. Since gameplay is arguably the more important aspect, the amount of time spent with chargen becomes trivial in comparison.[/quote']

 

I think this whole thread points directly at the flaw in that thinking.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

I think this whole thread points directly at the flaw in that thinking.

 

Not really. Taken as a whole, chargen does AFFECT gameplay according to its different factors, but what the loop model demonstrates is that the TIME required for a particular chargen model is insignificant when compared with the total time spent in gameplay.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Actually 90% of combat is determined at character gen. Your PC is either capable dealing with the threats and situations in the campaign or it isn't. You can hedge by being creative, but for instance if you are playing a 10 INT Energy Projector with Plasma powers you should be limiting your 'bright ideas' to what a 10 INT character should be able to concieve of.

 

Hawksmoor

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Not really. Taken as a whole' date=' chargen does AFFECT gameplay according to its different factors, but what the loop model demonstrates is that the TIME required for a particular chargen model is insignificant when compared with the total time spent in gameplay.[/quote']

 

You are joking here right?

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

You are joking here right?

 

Guess your games don't last very long, huh?

 

Could you drop the snide tone, please? This isn't the first time I've gotten this sort of thing from you.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

He can't. Honest debating skills were never purchased for his character and he got a physical limitation saying he can never buy them.

 

Hawksmoor

-What? I'm on his Ignore anyway.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Actually 90% of combat is determined at character gen. Your PC is either capable dealing with the threats and situations in the campaign or it isn't. You can hedge by being creative, but for instance if you are playing a 10 INT Energy Projector with Plasma powers you should be limiting your 'bright ideas' to what a 10 INT character should be able to concieve of.

 

Hawksmoor

 

Yes, of course chargen AFFECTS gameplay. It has a big impact on it. The loop model simply tries to demonstrate that the "chargen time expended":"gameplay time enjoyed" ratio makes the time spent in chargen insignificant compared to how long your campaign will probably run.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Hi,

 

I am a nice guy. I agree with everything you just said.

 

Hawksmoor

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Guess your games don't last very long, huh?

 

Could you drop the snide tone, please? This isn't the first time I've gotten this sort of thing from you.

 

Perhaps you're doing something to bring it out.

 

As a GM, I spend far more time in chargen of all types than I do playing the game. Whatever your experience, it doesn't match mine.

 

As a player, some types of chargen beyond my desire to deal with. Thus game time = 0 after the degree of time spent determining that it has failed my acceptance. Again, whatever your experience- it doesn't match mine.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Perhaps you're doing something to bring it out.

 

As a GM, I spend far more time in chargen of all types than I do playing the game. Whatever your experience, it doesn't match mine.

 

As a player, some types of chargen beyond my desire to deal with. Thus game time = 0 after the degree of time spent determining that it has failed my acceptance. Again, whatever your experience- it doesn't match mine.

 

Let's see, say it takes two hours per player to create a HERO character for four players. That's eight hours. Most of my campaigns run far longer than eight hours, and since new characters don't have to be rolled up for the players between sessions, I'd say my average campaign has a ratio of "1 hr/ chargen:9 hr/ gameplay". That's 1 to 9, at the worst. Now, when it comes to making NPCs, that might take a while... but that's not what the loop model is referring to. Not part of the equation, so to speak.

 

Besides, there are ways to greatly speed up the process of generating NPCs.

[tesuji]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

maybe this needs to be expressed mathematically...

 

if chargen time = 2 hours.

 

and

 

If the threshold for player tolerance of chargen < 2 hours,

 

then the ratio of CHARGEN TIME : PLAY TIME becomes "some number under 2 hours" / 0 hour playing AKA infinity to the bad.

 

The loop model you are supportingn only applies IF the lengthy time spent on chargen is not enough to prevent game time from occuring at all.

 

So, using it to support a notion that chargen time length isn't valid as a complaint or maybe more precisely to purport it is "relevant as a counter to the usual complaints against HERO's complexity" is rather specious.

 

Matter of fact we now have the following conditions applied to the argument of its relevence as a counter:

1. Only applies when discussing players, the guys in a campaign who spend the least amount of time/effort on chargen.

2. Only applies if the complexity/effort at chargen is still under the player's threshold and thus it doesn't turn them off continuing the game at all.

 

So, the lopp as a counter hold water IF AND ONLY IF the game has no GM and all the players are going to accept the chargen effort anyway.

 

Now i don't know about you, but my bet is the games where both those are true, and the loop argument is valid, are NOT the games run by or played by those who voice the complaints.

 

As i staed early on, I have not seen a lot of the complexity of hero chargen complaints by PLAYERs expressed online or in person relating to the REPETITIVE CHARGEn issue, so the whole "it only happens once" seems to be an inaccurate answer. Its like someone complaining that bthe tea is bitter and someone answering with "yeah but its yellow" instead of passing sweetener.

 

 

 

Let's see, say it takes two hours per player to create a HERO character for four players. That's eight hours. Most of my campaigns run far longer than eight hours, and since new characters don't have to be rolled up for the players between sessions, I'd say my average campaign has a ratio of "1 hr/ chargen:9 hr/ gameplay". That's 1 to 9, at the worst. Now, when it comes to making NPCs, that might take a while... but that's not what the loop model is referring to. Not part of the equation, so to speak.

 

Besides, there are ways to greatly speed up the process of generating NPCs.

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Matter of fact we now have the following conditions applied to the argument of its relevence as a counter:

1. Only applies when discussing players, the guys in a campaign who spend the least amount of time/effort on chargen.

2. Only applies if the complexity/effort at chargen is still under the player's threshold and thus it doesn't turn them off continuing the game at all.

 

So, the lopp as a counter hold water IF AND ONLY IF the game has no GM and all the players are going to accept the chargen effort anyway.

 

Exactly.

 

 

For the record, HERO is not beyond my threshold. But it is beyond most people that I've meant. If I didn't create the characters for my players in my HERO games- I wouldn't have any.

 

I don't call that reaction to chargen insignificant.

[Warp9]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

2. Only applies if the complexity/effort at chargen is still under the player's threshold and thus it doesn't turn them off continuing the game at all.

 

So, the lopp as a counter hold water IF AND ONLY IF the game has no GM and all the players are going to accept the chargen effort anyway.

But isn't it a part of the point that Players should be willing to play a game even if it has complex chargen?

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

But isn't it a part of the point that Players should be willing to play a game even if it has complex chargen?

 

It's a weak attempt to convince them they should be willing.

 

But most people who are worth playing with already know what they are or are not willing to do.

[Warp9]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

It's a weak attempt to convince them they should be willing.

That all depends on if you accept the logic of the argument or not.

 

But most people who are worth playing with already know what they are or are not willing to do.

True. But couldn't that also be the sign of a closed mind?

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

True. But couldn't that could also be the sign of a closed mind?

 

As a side note, about the term 'closed mind'

 

A closed mind is one that has reached a fixed and unchanging decision without consideration or reflection upon other possiblities.

 

The term is too often used to refer to people holding to their reasoned decisions to which no convincing counter-argument has been made. In other words, some people use it to label anyone who disagree with their theories.

 

 

 

In specific area of RPGs, I think the desire to start tossing out labels like 'closed minded' on people who don't like complex chargen, or HERO, or mechanicless role-playing or anything else is approaching gamer dogma. It is not a useful nor a respectable stance.

 

People generally know what they like and what they don't like. I for one can bow to their wishes without calling them closed minded.

[Warp9]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

I for one can bow to their wishes without calling them closed minded.

To me, it would depend upon the matter at hand.

[buzz]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

So' date=' using it to support a notion that chargen time length isn't valid as a complaint or maybe more precisely to purport it is "relevant as a counter to the usual complaints against HERO's complexity" is rather specious.[/quote']

I think that you're muddying the issue by bringing in personal preference (even granting that system choice is a personal prefeence). The threshold for the aformentioned casual gamer in my D&D group is 0; virtually any amount of time beyond 0 spent creating a PC is going to be too much for him and he'll lose interest. This doesn't validate complaints about systems where chargen takes more than 0 seconds.

 

As I said before, all this really says is that people will not have fun doing things they consider un-fun, which is a given.

 

The loop model is simply pointing out where the majority of player time is spent. The person who concocted the model then posits that there is nothing inherrently advantageous about a system that minimizes the effort invovled in chargen, particularly (in the context of his review of C&C) if said speed is a result of rules-insufficiency that can then interfere with the majority of gameplay, i.e., time spent inside the loop. What matters more is whether chargen results in a satisfying gameplay experience for those involved. This is not a heavy/"lite" issue, but a good/poor design issue, mixed in with preference.

 

I do consider it specious to use two hours as an example, however. Barring World of Synnibar (yes, I've played it) and notoriously-complex FGU games from the '80s like Chivalry & Sorcery 2e and Space Opera, I can't think of any RPGs I've had experience with where the mechanics of chargen take anywhere near two hours.

 

Assuming familiarity with the system, heavier games like HERO and D&D only take minutes to make even powerful PCs, especially when one has access to tools like Hero Designer or PCGen. What takes time is making decisions and coming up with concepts. (And, in some cases, scouring through sourcebooks, which can be said of most games on the market.)

 

(One of the advantages to D&D is that one can bypass the concept portion of chargen. I can roll up a fighter or wizard with absolutely no knowledge of who they are as a person or what their background is. Conversely, this is impossible with both lite-er systems like Buffy and Heroquest, as well as mid-to-heavy ones like M&M, HERO, and GURPS, barring the use of templates.)

 

Lacking familiarity with the system will always make chargen take longer. (Ergo, why I reccomend skipping it altogether when teaching a system.) Some systems are certainly more readily-digested than others, but that's really irrelevant. If simplicity was all that mattered, Bobby Fischer would have focused on tic-tac-toe instead of chess.

[tesuji]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

But isn't it a part of the point that Players should be willing to play a game even if it has complex chargen?

 

I would suggest that the argument may seek to address the issue of CAN the players be willing, but it doesn't really address SHOULD.

 

In order to establish the players SHOULD be willing to accept longer, more involved pregame chargen, you need to establish a BENEFIT commensurate with the increased effort.

 

igf we play game X with 30 mins of chargen and we consider playing game Y with 3 hours chargen, the fact that "after 100 hours of game play we have ratios of .005 vs .033" and the subjective determination that .005 is not significantly better than .033 as a ratio, only establishes (if i accept the subjective comparison) that going to the longer one won't hurt all that much in the long run. Its stating "you could without breaking your game" not "you should be willing to" at all.

 

To establish "you should be willing to" it would have to go one step more and show what positive gains were had in the longer chargen game that made the extra 2.5 hours worthwhile. What is the benefit reaped by and justifying the extra work.

 

So, if the gol is to say "you could do this" the argument starts along the way (with the conditionals of threshold not exceeded and no Gm involved.)

 

But if as you suggest the lopp theory is supposed to make the point about SHOULD, its still missing.

 

or think of it this way, if on exterminator says he will take 2 hours to fumigate your house and another says it will take 12 hours and both cost the same and both promise and deliver the same quality of results, you CAN choose to let the guy take 12 hours but why SHOULD you?

 

Now, the obvious answer from the HERO crowd is "but HERO delivers better results" but while that is their subjective consideration, its not a universal truth.

 

Final note: once you add chargen threshold in, it becomes a no-brainer comparison to me.

[buzz]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Now' date=' the obvious answer from the HERO crowd is "but HERO delivers better results" but while that is their subjective consideration, its not a universal truth.[/quote']

Or, "HERO delivers results and a gameplay experience that I prefer (or enjoy just as much)," which is irrefutable.