Walking On The Sun

[archermoo]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

The game needs something to make you understand why he can do that but not survive an attack from Freon.

 

No, actually it doesn't. The person who created the character that way and/or the Ref that allowed it needs to. If you choose to make a character with environmental immunity to something but not also purchase increased defenses vs those types of attacks, you need to justify it. Not the rules.

[archermoo]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

IHERO needs to embrace the idea of absolutes.

 

I disagree. As a for instance, you want to have a character that is totally immune to fire. I want a character that has a fire attack that can damage anything. Or do you mean you think that HERO only needs absolutes for defense?

[MitchellS]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

No' date=' actually it doesn't. The person who created the character that way and/or the Ref that allowed it needs to. If you choose to make a character with environmental immunity to something but not also purchase increased defenses vs those types of attacks, you need to justify it. Not the rules.[/quote']

I disagree. I hate the idea that I can stand naked, soaking wet at the north pole with no ill effects but Freon can defeat me with his cold blasts. Either the character is immune to something or he is not. If I'm immune to cold then the correct way to purchase it [as far as current rules] is to buy lots of defenses versus cold attacks. So it doesn't matter if I'm standing at the north pole in winter or getting attacked by Freon; I'm immune.

 

It's very possible for characters to buy the life support and be immune to cold or heat or radiation and not actually have the ability to withstand attacks based on those special effects. The only thing I see life support as being really useful for is NND attacks; and my idea about an environmental immunity power could just as easily be used for that.

[MitchellS]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Nope' date=' not at all. In fact you could design said power for your particular campaign, and then tell your players, "If you want to be Invulnerable to a particular type of attack, buy the Invulnerability Power for 48 points." They never even have to see the mechanics of how it was derived. This is much the same as building a Talent or Super-Skill.[/quote']

We do that more than you'd probably believe. We have quite a longs list of adders and mini-powers to save space and time.

 

Ultimately the point should be to make things easier for other people to understand as well. There seems to be a very set idea that 5Er contains everything that will ever be; that it's impossible to create anything new. That you should be able to do everything with existing powers. I don't believe that. There are new powers which could be added. People, including designers, are just resistant to change.

 

I give Green Ronin a lot of credit. They took M&M, which is incredibly popular, and redesigned it from the ground up. That's something I wish DOJ had had the guts to do for 5th edition.

 

Now your definition of Desolid shows where our interpretations differ.

My definition of Desolid is the one in the book: "A character with Desolidification can become intangible, allowing him to walk through walls and ignore attacks." To me that says you're turning into something different.

 

Now if you're set against rule exceptions, even if they're in the rulebook and arguably "official," of course I can see why this would bother you.

Yep, hate them with a passion, from Eidetic Memory to Regeneration.

[archermoo]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

I disagree. I hate the idea that I can stand naked' date=' soaking wet at the north pole with no ill effects but Freon can defeat me with his cold blasts. Either the character is immune to something or he is not. If I'm immune to cold then the correct way to purchase it [as far as current rules'] is to buy lots of defenses versus cold attacks. So it doesn't matter if I'm standing at the north pole in winter or getting attacked by Freon; I'm immune.

 

Then don't buy your character that way. Just because the rules allow you to do something doesn't mean you have to do it. Just because you don't want to build a character that is immune to environmental effects but not attacks doesn't mean that someone else doesn't want to. One of the basic ideas of the HERO system is that it allows you to do just about anything. Not just the things that make sense to you.

 

And no, as far as the current rules go, the correct way to purchase immunity to a type of attack is to buy a limited form of Desolid, only vs that type of attack.

 

It's very possible for characters to buy the life support and be immune to cold or heat or radiation and not actually have the ability to withstand attacks based on those special effects.

 

Yup. And you seem to find that to be a problem. I don't. If they have a reason for their character to be immune to the environmental effects but not extra resistant to attacks based on them, more power to 'em. Just because you don't like the character concept doesn't mean that other people shouldn't be allowed to use it.

 

The only thing I see life support as being really useful for is NND attacks; and my idea about an environmental immunity power could just as easily be used for that.

 

And I see it as having much more use than that. It seems to me that you want to make the game smaller. Only allow things that make sense to you, or that you like. I'm happy with it the way it is. If you don't want people to be immune to environmental effects but not be particularly resistant to attacks based on the same SFX, don't let players buy their characters like that.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

I disagree. As a for instance' date=' you want to have a character that is totally immune to fire. I want a character that has a fire attack that can damage anything. Or do you mean you think that HERO only needs absolutes for defense?[/quote']

 

The WW game, Exalted, often talks about the applicability of perfection. To introduce the idea of perfect defenses into HERO one would have to obviously consider the possibility of a perfect attack. In this case the metarule of a defense being cheaper and more efficient than an offense would apply. If it costs 320 or 48 cp for invunerability then it should cost 640 or 96 cp for potency.

 

But yes in general, given the STUN mechanic and the inability to survive (read as walk away from) falls of terminal velocity defensive perfection would be a valued addition to HERO.

 

Hawksmoor

[MitchellS]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

And no' date=' as far as the current rules go, the correct way to purchase immunity to a type of attack is to buy a limited form of Desolid, only vs that type of attack.[/quote']

Actually it's only one of the suggested methods. The most commonly used method is damage reduction and/or armor with special effects limitations. USPD is full of those examples [acid, electricy, fire, cold, sonics, and other example groups]. I don't recall seeing any of the desolid immunity builds in there.

[archermoo]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

The WW game, Exalted, often talks about the applicability of perfection. To introduce the idea of perfect defenses into HERO one would have to obviously consider the possibility of a perfect attack. In this case the metarule of a defense being cheaper and more efficient than an offense would apply. If it costs 320 or 48 cp for invunerability then it should cost 640 or 96 cp for potency.

 

But yes in general, given the STUN mechanic and the inability to survive (read as walk away from) falls of terminal velocity defensive perfection would be a valued addition to HERO.

 

Hawksmoor

 

Well, fortunately there is a way of purchasing at least virtual immunity to a limited type of attack already built into the rules. It works as a limitation on Desolid.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Like I said before I want a way around Stun. Something like hey DEF! I want to buy DEF for my characters! Ignore that silly stun until you breach my DEF.

 

Hawksmoor

[archermoo]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Actually it's only one of the suggested methods. The most commonly used method is damage reduction and/or armor with special effects limitations. USPD is full of those examples [acid' date= electricy, fire, cold, sonics, and other example groups]. I don't recall seeing any of the desolid immunity builds in there.

 

Sorry, I should've said one way already in the rules, not the "correct" way. Not feeling particulary well today, so things aren't always coming out quite as intended. I used correct because I was responding to your use of the word. But I should've said that your was wasn't the "correct way", and here is another way to purchase it.

[archermoo]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Like I said before I want a way around Stun. Something like hey DEF! I want to buy DEF for my characters! Ignore that silly stun until you breach my DEF.

 

Hawksmoor

 

Ah, so you want a defense that acts like a force wall vs attacks, but like a force field to the person it is around? I would think a suitable advantage could be constructed for that...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Hero does not do immunity to damage, so LS never makes a huge aount of sense to me, at least the 'LS heat/cold/radiation' stuff.

 

The 'limited desolid' opion is an appalling kludge IMO. They should have had the cajones to either introdce the concept and have a power to simulate it or say it can't be done.

 

I'd have no objection to immunity to damage being introduced, albeit I'd want it as an optional rule with a STOP sign. Frankly, I don't see the point though.

 

In practice if there is nothing in the campaign that can get through your energy defences then you are immune to fire. I'm perfectly happy for you to say you are immune to fire.

 

You may not be able to walk on the sun, but, if I was GMing, I'd damn well ake sure it never came up. Then you could claim you could walk on the sun and I wouldn't contradict you. What happens in comics often happens becasue the writers have a poor grasp of physics and/or continuity. It may be the source material, but it isn't always authoratitive.

 

I'd have no problem with 'immunity to specified sfx': 20 (uncommon: negative energy) 40 (common: cold) 80 (very common: heat).

 

Mind you then you get the physicists: well I'm immune to heat so lasers should't effect me as they burn...well that has a light effect, no it is a heat effect, no....oh, and chemichals too: burning is just really oxidisation and chemicals use the same physical process..oh, and electricity, and....well, you see what I mean....I thin that that way, in all likelihood, lies only madness.

 

Seriously, tell them they can walk on the sun, but make sure the opportunity to test it never comes up.

[archermoo]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

The 'limited desolid' opion is an appalling kludge IMO. They should have had the cajones to either introdce the concept and have a power to simulate it or say it can't be done.

 

Each to their own I guess. I think that introducing a new power for immunity to damage when one already exists is redundant. There is already a power that give immunity to damage, Desolid. If anything Desolid should be changed to seperate the two distinct effects from each other. So get rid of Desolid and replace it with two new powers, Insubstnatial and Immune. Insubstantial would allow you to pass through walls and such, but not confer immunity to damage. Personally I'm perfectly happy to just limit Desolid to get rid of one of the primary effects. Just like I'm happy to just define an Energy Blast as Stun Only, rather that feeling the need to have a seperate power for a normal attack that does Stun damage but not Body.

[OddHat]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Like I said before I want a way around Stun. Something like hey DEF! I want to buy DEF for my characters! Ignore that silly stun until you breach my DEF.

 

Hawksmoor

 

Like an 18PD Personal Force Wall, Hardened?

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

wait...but if you buy your desolid as persistant inherent...do you still have to buy effects real world on your powers?

 

See that's main problem with using desolid. Unless you have it triggered (wich it really isn't immunities are persistant and usually inherent) then you can't even effect whatever you are immune to based on the way I think it reads that desolid works...I can't swear to it as I am at work and do not have my book. Like...if I have desolid to ice inherent persistant, can I still touch the ice?

 

I do know that we had a ghost character with desolid, always on, inherent, and he had to buy "effects real world" on all of his abilities, includin his strength. That's the extra cost of being desolid, because if you can't be hurt but you can smack everything around it should cost more than 40 points...so it does.

 

Also, if I use desolid to avoid fire/ice/etc damage, and then someone uses an "effects desolid" fire attack on me. Then I still get hurt. And that makes no sense whatsoever for an immunity.

 

I just feel that Desolid isn't the way that feels right to me. Now, for some things, it makes sense. My Shadow Ketera, Shadiya Lances, has Desolid to all attacks cannot pass through walls as an ability. Where he literally becomes a shadow. But for my Fire dragon it just didn't seam right, I mean of course he can interact with fire, it doesn't pass through him...he just doesn't care that it's there. So I used the house ruled Damage reduction at 100% for fire.

 

It just feels better. Though I don't begrudge people making it either way.

[MitchellS]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

I used correct because I was responding to your use of the word. But I should've said that your was wasn't the "correct way"' date=' and here is another way to purchase it.[/quote']

I used the word "correct" because the existing examples [characters and powers] published use the method I suggested. While the toolkit is ambiguous the existing "official" examples are not.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

well, that depends on SFX. If my character can walk on the sun then somewhere along the lines he should have gotten a power that relates to the reason.

 

If not, well...then I guess he wasn't thought through very well.

 

I have issues with the life support in Hero...but for a supers game I'd allow it.

Especially if the player wants that idocincracy.

 

For a fantasy/sci-fi game..maybe not.

 

It also depends on how the GM wants to handle it.

I gave my fire dragons 100% DR fire as a racial ability. I don't care what fire you throw at them, they will not take damage. And even then, as they are my dragons, they can not live in the sun. Because they have 100% DR fire class 2, and the sun is class 4 (I have a 4 tier temperature setting for both fire and cold) If you threw a fire attack at level 3 at them, they would effectively drop thier DR to 75%, and in the sun they would take half damage.

 

But house rules only go so far =P

 

I'm not sure what the best way to deal with invulnerability is..but it's a very shaky topic for me.

 

whats a class 4 cold?

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

All of which is why you should just buy 16 points of LifeSupport' date=' Desolidification and Flight, and be done with it. THis is so far into the cinematic that you're much better off with a power that says "Can Ignore Physics".[/quote']

 

every character i make would have that power, how much does it cost? 30 pts?

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Very true very true.

 

Speaking of Ignoring physics...

Anyone for Nonnuclidian Geometry man?!

 

me me!

[MitchellS]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Like an 18PD Personal Force Wall' date=' Hardened? [/quote']

That could be interesting. Of course then you need to purchase all of your attack abilities [including strength] with indirect: +1/4 [unless you want to make an exception for that too. ].

 

But an immunity power based on that idea is very much what I have been talking about anyway.

[archermoo]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

wait...but if you buy your desolid as persistant inherent...do you still have to buy effects real world on your powers?

 

See that's main problem with using desolid. Unless you have it triggered (wich it really isn't immunities are persistant and usually inherent) then you can't even effect whatever you are immune to based on the way I think it reads that desolid works...I can't swear to it as I am at work and do not have my book. Like...if I have desolid to ice inherent persistant, can I still touch the ice?

 

I do know that we had a ghost character with desolid, always on, inherent, and he had to buy "effects real world" on all of his abilities, includin his strength. That's the extra cost of being desolid, because if you can't be hurt but you can smack everything around it should cost more than 40 points...so it does.

 

Also, if I use desolid to avoid fire/ice/etc damage, and then someone uses an "effects desolid" fire attack on me. Then I still get hurt. And that makes no sense whatsoever for an immunity.

 

I just feel that Desolid isn't the way that feels right to me. Now, for some things, it makes sense. My Shadow Ketera, Shadiya Lances, has Desolid to all attacks cannot pass through walls as an ability. Where he literally becomes a shadow. But for my Fire dragon it just didn't seam right, I mean of course he can interact with fire, it doesn't pass through him...he just doesn't care that it's there. So I used the house ruled Damage reduction at 100% for fire.

 

It just feels better. Though I don't begrudge people making it either way.

 

According to the way it is written up in the rules, no you don't necessarily have to buy Affects Physical World on everything. When you purchase Desolid with the limitation "Only To Protect Against Limited Type Of Attack" you are getting rid of the "insubstantial" portion of the power, while keeping the "invulnerable" part of it. So you are still part of the physical world and don't need to add the ability to affect the physical world on your other powers.

[MitchellS]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

According to the way it is written up in the rules' date=' no you don't necessarily have to buy Affects Physical World on everything. When you purchase Desolid with the limitation "Only To Protect Against Limited Type Of Attack" you are getting rid of the "insubstantial" portion of the power, while keeping the "invulnerable" part of it. So you are still part of the physical world and don't need to add the ability to affect the physical world on your other powers.[/quote']

Actually that's open to GM interpritation. It's not official. The rules say he should buy affects real world "(unless the GM gives permission otherwise)."

[archermoo]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

I used the word "correct" because the existing examples [characters and powers] published use the method I suggested. While the toolkit is ambiguous the existing "official" examples are not.

 

Doesn't seem at all ambiguous to me. Pretty straightforward actually. And I would say that anything specifically stated in the rules as a way of doing something certainly would qualify as a "correct" way to do it.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

wait...but if you buy your desolid as persistant inherent...do you still have to buy effects real world on your powers?

QUOTE]

 

yes, at least powers that are attacks i think. I'm not sure about movement

[archermoo]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Actually that's open to GM interpritation. It's not official. The rules say he should buy affects real world (unless the GM gives persmission otherwise).

 

Certainly it is official. It's right in the book. The rules say that if the ref requires them to purchase Affects Physical World for everything then it is a very expensive defense. And then it goes on to say that at the ref's option (which all of the rules are) they wouldn't have to buy affects desolid, since they are just buying a defense and are still part of the physical world.