Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

[Guest Black Lotus]

All right, everyone, I've had it. I want to stat out a handheld minigun, recoil and all, and I'm going to do it as properly as I can. Yes, they've been proven totally unfeasible for use in real life, but they DO really exist... they just aren't actually used. I have a lot of ideas so far:

 

• Assuming a Rate of Fire (RoF) of 6,000 rpm, though most can go even higher. I translate this to 100 rounds per second, 50 rounds per half-second (the time it takes to make an Attack Action, since a Segement is one second long). Then I am thinking of using Autofire 10 and just assuming every five bullets act as a single bullet, giving us damage of 4d6 (and that's being stingy with even five small bullets worth of damage, only 4/5 what it should be).
  
• OAF Bulky, massive STR Minimum, but two hands helps offset that, and a possible +OCV modifier to reflect quality of construction and "tracking the target".
  
• A backpack of 1,000 belted rounds of ammo purportedly weighs in at 35 pounds. The gun itself should weigh 30 pound, which is what real-life test models weighed. One quandary is how to handle Charges with beltfed ammo, anyone have any suggestions?
  

 

And I'm going from there. All comments, suggestions, or criticisms are very much welcomed. Here's a picture of "the real deal" to give you an idea of the weapon in question:

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

Heh heh, last time even saw a movie version of this was Predator. I didn't think they were still made (are they?), I know they've been pretty much disqualified from real life situations... onwards:

 

If you're going the 1 "shot" = 5 bullets route (not a bad idea really) that gives 200 shots per 1,000 rnd belt.

 

Is there a point in time where you see a single belt being depleted within 1 combat or before a character can reasonably get a fresh belt (so to speak)?

 

If no, then you could skip the Charges issue as "you're just not going to use all that ammo." and put on 0END instead.

 

If yes, you're looking at 200 Charges per Clip by interpretation. I have no idea what that turns out to be advantage wise.

 

A third option is to "Story Board" it and just keep track of the ammo as a +0 (only 200 shots) off to the side and not worry.

 

The third route doesn't seem your style at all, the first is probably the easier method to use and the most game friendly.

[Fox1]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

The recoil on those things are beyond belief you know, 240 lbs according to one source (and they may have low balled it). Makes it uncontrollable as a hand held weapon.

 

But it is fun...

 

How to do the damage is the thing.

 

Consider the following:

 

Barrel One: 2d6 RKA, Autofire 10.

Barrels two-five (virtual barrels to keep the rof correct, I think the original had six?): 2d6 RKA, linked to Barrel One

 

That would chain saw stuff nicely, but keep it from penetrating stuff it really shouldn't.

 

 

BTW: Useful website for this subject: http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Firearms/Machine-Guns/GE_XM214_Minigun.htm

[Kristopher]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

All right, everyone, I've had it. I want to stat out a handheld minigun, recoil and all, and I'm going to do it as properly as I can. Yes, they've been proven totally unfeasible for use in real life, but they DO really exist... they just aren't actually used. I have a lot of ideas so far:

 

• Assuming a Rate of Fire (RoF) of 6,000 rpm, though most can go even higher. I translate this to 100 rounds per second, 50 rounds per half-second (the time it takes to make an Attack Action, since a Segement is one second long). Then I am thinking of using Autofire 10 and just assuming every five bullets act as a single bullet, giving us damage of 4d6 (and that's being stingy with even five small bullets worth of damage, only 4/5 what it should be).
  
• OAF Bulky, massive STR Minimum, but two hands helps offset that, and a possible +OCV modifier to reflect quality of construction and "tracking the target".
  
• A backpack of 1,000 belted rounds of ammo purportedly weighs in at 35 pounds. The gun itself should weigh 30 pound, which is what real-life test models weighed. One quandary is how to handle Charges with beltfed ammo, anyone have any suggestions?
  

 

And I'm going from there. All comments, suggestions, or criticisms are very much welcomed. Here's a picture of "the real deal" to give you an idea of the weapon in question:

 

One of the things suggested for making the real-life man-pack minigun more practical as a weapon was to lower the RoF to 3000 rounds per minute, which is still an insane stream of metal flying downrange but perhaps a bit more manageable.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

Heh heh' date=' last time even saw a movie version of this was Predator. I didn't think they were still made (are they?), I know they've been pretty much disqualified from real life situations... onwards:[/quote']

 

Don't forget Terminator 2: Judgement Day!

 

If you're going the 1 "shot" = 5 bullets route (not a bad idea really) that gives 200 shots per 1,000 rnd belt.

 

Is there a point in time where you see a single belt being depleted within 1 combat or before a character can reasonably get a fresh belt (so to speak)?

 

With Autofire 10 Only? That's 20 attacks total.

 

If no, then you could skip the Charges issue as "you're just not going to use all that ammo." and put on 0END instead.

 

If yes, you're looking at 200 Charges per Clip by interpretation. I have no idea what that turns out to be advantage wise.

 

I think it's necessary to reflect the true power of the weapon, so I probably will buy it with 200 Charges (also to preserve realism).

 

A third option is to "Story Board" it and just keep track of the ammo as a +0 (only 200 shots) off to the side and not worry.

 

The third route doesn't seem your style at all, the first is probably the easier method to use and the most game friendly.

 

Yeah, storyboarding it definitely isn't my thing (I want to do a nice, complete job building it).

 

The recoil on those things are beyond belief you know' date=' 240 lbs according to one source (and they may have low balled it). Makes it uncontrollable as a hand held weapon.[/quote']

 

Yeah, I know. I did a bit of research.

 

Consider the following:

 

Barrel One: 2d6 RKA, Autofire 10.

Barrels two-five (virtual barrels to keep the rof correct, I think the original had six?): 2d6 RKA, linked to Barrel One

 

That would chain saw stuff nicely, but keep it from penetrating stuff it really shouldn't.

 

You're right about too much penetration, so I'll add a Reduced Penetration Lim to the 4d6 (or so). Also keep in mind that, using my firearm system where bullets do more damage, it's probably be more like 5d6 or even 6d6 (per five bullets).

 

One of the things suggested for making the real-life man-pack minigun more practical as a weapon was to lower the RoF to 3000 rounds per minute' date=' which is still an insane stream of metal flying downrange but perhaps a bit more manageable.[/quote']

 

Considering that a player can't use it to attack every Segment of every Turn, I think I have that covered.

[Fox1]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

Considering that a player can't use it to attack every Segment of every Turn' date=' I think I have that covered. [/quote']

 

Hmm....

 

Given the movie source, it really should attack every segment....

 

Pehaps a AE, continuous attack of some type as an option? You could put it in a multi-power.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

Don't forget Terminator 2: Judgement Day!

 

ah yeah.. "Trust Me..." how could I forget.

 

 

With Autofire 10 Only? That's 20 attacks total.

 

oops, missed that part. Yeah, 200 Charges is what you want. Expensive sucker.

[Vorsch]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

This is pointless

 

in champions, sorry hero 5th, firing 100 bulits at a target per second dosent increase your chances of hitting the target ( oddly enought every military in the world disagrees with this base assumption ) -2 -4 -6 in fact your last bullit couldnt hit the earth if you aimed ( as well as most of the others.)

 

so what the point of stating a real weapon that, is made redundant by game mechanics.

 

bad mood, but hey its me

[Fox1]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

so what the point of stating a real weapon that, is made redundant by game mechanics.

 

Well, it's not by the mechanics he's using. He's upping the damage to represent multiple bullets hitting.

 

Nor was it redundant by my suggested mechanics. Five shots would hit for every 'one hit' the game mechanics allowed.

 

I think the whole idea is to look for ways to model it, and make sure it's not pointless.

[Vorsch]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

Hes upping the damge to represent multiple strike, the rules are plainly in favour of autofire, otherwise i dont suppose thed be there.

 

Personally i approve, but im a hard core rules fanatic, and the rules say 6000 rounds a minute is autofire, simply because it is. ( sfx issuse like decidind EDM means reality controll or wishes leave me doubting peoples sanity ). If the rules cant handle it they should be changed, but they never are......

 

my cross to bare and i hope some otheres

 

Minigun

 

90 180 Rka 2d6 Var adv +1/2 (amo load) +1, autofire 250 +2, charges 6000 +2, OAF

30 +12ocv, OAF, only ( indiscrimate carnage )

 

Total cost more than your allowed

 

game effect not allot vs JLA types

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

Hes upping the damge to represent multiple strike, the rules are plainly in favour of autofire, otherwise i dont suppose thed be there.

 

Personally i approve, but im a hard core rules fanatic, and the rules say 6000 rounds a minute is autofire, simply because it is. ( sfx issuse like decidind EDM means reality controll or wishes leave me doubting peoples sanity ). If the rules cant handle it they should be changed, but they never are......

 

my cross to bare and i hope some otheres

 

Minigun

 

90 180 Rka 2d6 Var adv +1/2 (amo load) +1, autofire 250 +2, charges 6000 +2, OAF

30 +12ocv, OAF, only ( indiscrimate carnage )

 

Total cost more than your allowed

 

game effect not allot vs JLA types

 

Problem is, you only score an extra hit with Autofire for each 2 you make your attack roll by. This gun fires sooo fast, several bullets are guaranteed to hit in almost the same place almost simultaneously -- 100 bullets per second is A LOT. If I did it Autofire 6,000, the weapon would be pretty much worthless (because of the high cost for no real effect).

 

The only way to remedy this is to have a house rule that for every 2 points you make the attack roll by, (total autofire / 5 [or maybe 10]) extra bullets hit. For example, if I had Autofire 100, the first attack, if successful, causes 10 or 20 hits, if I make the attack roll by 2 I score 10 or 20 more hits, etcetera.

 

The other way to totally realistically represent really large RoF is to have a whole bunch of Linked Powers, but frankly, that'd be a whole lot more deadly than the way I do it. For example, I could Link four additional "4d6 Autofire 10" Powers to the first one.

 

Huge RoFs are a problem in Hero. If anyone has a very realistic/ reasonable/ fun solution that doesn't mainly depend upon house rules (or even if they do), please tell me. But just like with Energy Blast (stream of rubber bullets), it is okay according to the official rules to assume a single attack contains many projectiles -- just increase the damage (and in this case add Reduced Penetration once or even twice).

[Toadmaster]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

Hes upping the damge to represent multiple strike, the rules are plainly in favour of autofire, otherwise i dont suppose thed be there.

 

Personally i approve, but im a hard core rules fanatic, and the rules say 6000 rounds a minute is autofire, simply because it is. ( sfx issuse like decidind EDM means reality controll or wishes leave me doubting peoples sanity ). If the rules cant handle it they should be changed, but they never are......

 

my cross to bare and i hope some otheres

 

Minigun

 

90 180 Rka 2d6 Var adv +1/2 (amo load) +1, autofire 250 +2, charges 6000 +2, OAF

30 +12ocv, OAF, only ( indiscrimate carnage )

 

Total cost more than your allowed

 

game effect not allot vs JLA types

 

 

Not really, there is not much differance between the way he is describing to build it and a shotgun, I mean using your argument shotguns should be built using Autofire (9-12 pellets in a typical combat load, 12 gauge OO buck shot), I have also seen a similar build suggested in a HERO product (can't recall which off hand and my books are still packed up). Its all about SFX, personally I'd feel better using linked attacks since it seems to feel more like the garden hose such a thing would be, in that case the AF would not be so prohibitive, plus I prefer the older rules that gave a +OCV for autofire and this could be built in.

 

As to your earlier comment about more rounds not giving a better chance to hit, that is only sort of true, full auto fire from hand held weapons tends to get wild beyond the first few shots, but the 3 round burst was created because it gives a better chance of a hit, due to minor differences the bullets will not follow exactly the same path, so at 100 yards or so you will have a circular pattern of 3-6" with most weapons even if the weapon is fixed in place, so much like a shotgun minor errors in aim may be corrected by this deviation. On the otherhand weapons like the mini-gun, Vulcan cannon etc were designed to have as many rounds hit in as short a time as possible, these were basically designed as aircraft weapons where the target typically doesn't stay put for long, so for example a WW2 fighter like the P51 Mustang firing with 6 .50 cal machineguns at 600-800 rounds per minute (or 3600-4800 all together) gets a short burst at an FW190, out of that burst say 0.1 seconds is actually lined up on target, that will result in 6 hits (1 second at 600 rpm = 10 rounds, x6 for the multiple guns or 60 rounds fired, 1/10 second = 6 bullets), now the fact the guns are spread out in the wings and each is sighted slightly differently further reduces the hits which is one of the reasons the P38 with all those guns in the nose was particularly deadly, now you take a 20mm Vulcan gun firing at 6000-8000 rpm and the same hit results in 10+ hits, the fact all the rounds are fired from basically the same point is just a bonus leading to a more concentrated area (better chance of hitting when the aim is on target.

[Fox1]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

Huge RoFs are a problem in Hero. If anyone has a very realistic/ reasonable/ fun solution that doesn't mainly depend upon house rules (or even if they do)' date=' please tell me.[/quote']

 

I really only use two options right now.

 

The linked gun solution for the multi-barrel systems I referenced above, and the hyper-burst solution I use for weapons like the G-11 and AK-94 with have around a 2000 round per minute 2 or 3 shot burst setting.

 

You should have already seen the G-11 version on my website, remember to check the notes. It's basically a CSL, +1 only to counter the autofire modifier.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

But just like with Energy Blast (stream of rubber bullets)' date=' it is okay according to the official rules to assume a single attack contains many projectiles -- just increase the damage (and in this case add Reduced Penetration once or even twice).[/quote']

Correct it is all about the SFX, while its not the way I would build it, your idea of 4d6, Rpen is perfectly workable and legal by the rules, you could even build it area effect to represent the massive number of bullets passing through a hex.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

Would you allow Reduced Penetration to be bought double-strength (attacks are divided by 1/4) for -1/2 instead of -1/4? To put it another way, the attack's penetration ability is quartered, instead of merely halved.

[Fox1]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

Would you allow Reduced Penetration to be bought double-strength (attacks are divided by 1/4) for -1/2 instead of -1/4? To put it another way' date=' the attack's penetration ability is quartered, instead of merely halved.[/quote']

 

I would.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

Correct it is all about the SFX' date=' while its not the way I would build it, your idea of 4d6, Rpen is perfectly workable and legal by the rules, you could even build it area effect to represent the massive number of bullets passing through a hex.[/quote']

 

Many RPGs indeed treat it as an area of effect attack, but I know from seeing the weapon in action that it is a precision instrument. I had seriously considered the Area of Effect possibility, though, believe me, and I sort of still am willing to consider... WHOA! Right, you could do Area of Effect 1 Hex... maybe Selective! That IS quite realistic (very, extremely hard to use your own DCV against)... man, this weapon is complex.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

Another approach is using AoE, since you're basicaly throwing a massive amount of projectiles dowstream and the recoil could make it hard to control pinpoint wise you could assume someone firing it automatically fills the target hex with lead.

 

You could remove the Autofire, reduce the charges to reflect a certain number of bullets per pull of the trigger (fire once, 150 bullets fill the target hex), possibly increase the damage a bit more to reflect a lot of lead pounding the target.

 

This gets rid of the Autfire problem of an Extra Hit per 2 the ATT Roll is made by and garauntees the target is hit by "Multiple Bullets"

 

this is a hard one to model.. definitely post your final solution, I'm interested.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

Another approach is using AoE' date=' since you're basicaly throwing a massive amount of projectiles dowstream and the recoil could make it hard to control pinpoint wise you could assume someone firing it automatically fills the target hex with lead.[/quote']

 

I am seriously considering AoE: 1 Hex. In fact, I think I will certainly include it.

 

You could remove the Autofire' date=' reduce the charges to reflect a certain number of bullets per pull of the trigger (fire once, 150 bullets fill the target hex), possibly increase the damage a bit more to reflect a lot of lead pounding the target.[/quote']

 

I'm going to keep the Autofire simply because it shows that a hand-held minigun could easily walk across a target. The better the attack roll, the tighter an area you confined your walking to -- and trust me, all automatic weapons bounce and jiggle. It also slightly decreases the lethality of this weapon.

[Fox1]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

I'm going to keep the Autofire simply because it shows that a hand-held minigun could easily walk across a target. The better the attack roll' date=' the tighter an area you confined your walking to -- and trust me, all automatic weapons bounce and jiggle. It also slightly decreases the lethality of this weapon.[/quote']

 

There are some interesting effects of combing autofire and AoE as I recall. It may not work out for you.

 

Hmm, first glance looks like they removed those...

 

How about mobile on the AoE, maybe with a limit to represent walking the fire across an area?

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

I need help calculating the STR Minimum for a 30-lb, 0.75-meter-long weapon. I will of course also be including OAF Bulky.

[Fox1]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

I need help calculating the STR Minimum for a 30-lb' date=' 0.75-meter-long weapon. I will of course also be including OAF Bulky.[/quote']

 

At full rate of fire?

 

Assuming the 240 lbs of recoil energy noted on one website is correct, it would take a STR of 26 under my house rules.

 

But there's a problem with that. Those assume a recoil impulse, not a continuous pressure as this gun would give. Frankly, your guess is as good as mine.

[Kristopher]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

I'd suggest against reduced pentration. One of the effects of extremely high RoF weapons like the GE series is that it's likely that one of the rounds will find something or somewhere vulnerable on the target. This is part of what makes the GAU-8A so effective against tanks.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

I'd suggest against reduced pentration. One of the effects of extremely high RoF weapons like the GE series is that it's likely that one of the rounds will find something or somewhere vulnerable on the target. This is part of what makes the GAU-8A so effective against tanks.

 

Then perhaps only a single Reduced Penetration (after all, these are 5.56mm bullets we're talking about).

 

Oh and 26 STR sounds fine, I think. I was thinking anywhere from 25 -- 30 STR Minimum. Of course the weapon MUST be used two-handed, and I might add a +1 OCV, not sure yet.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

Okay, here's the tentative first writeup.

 

General Electric XM-214 Automatic Gun ___________________

 

RKA 4d6 (60 Character Points), Area of Effect (1 Hex; +1/2), Autofire 10 Only (+1), Charges (200; +1); Beam (-1/4), OAF Bulky (-1 1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4), Reduced Penetration (-1/4), Strength Minimum (26, STR Min Cannot Add/ Subtract Damage; -1 1/2). Notes: Weapon MUST be used two-handed. The weapon weighs 30 lbs, and the clip (backpack) weighs 35 lbs.

 

Active Points: 210. Real Point Cost: 44.

 

Comments? Suggestions? Additions? Criticisms?

 

EDIT: Changed Autofire 10 to Autofire 10 Only.