SPD, DEX, and Movement

[Guest Black Lotus]

I've been mulling over the relationship between SPD, DEX, and Movement in Inches again, and again, the discrepancies are starting to bother me.

 

For example, take two characters with completely equal stats -- a 10 in every Ability Score. No need to take Skills, Talents, Perks, or Disadvantages into consideration for this example, though we'll be using a few Powers.

 

Let's say Player A wants to run faster. His SPD is 1 + (10/10) = 2, and he has the default 6" of Running; that means he moves a total of 12" per Turn. Okay, so Player A buys his Running up to 10", the Normal Characteristic Maxima for humans. This costs 2 Character Points per 1" of Running, for a total of 8 Character Points spent; Player A now moves 20" per Turn.

 

Player B, on the other hand, decides to buy up his SPD. His SPD is 1 + (10/10) = 2. Buying his SPD up to 3 costs 10 Character Points. Player B now moves 18" per Turn. For 10 Character Points, he gained almost as much extra Inches of Running per Turn as Player A, and in addition, can take an extra Half Phase Action per Turn -- and he can act sooner than the character with Running 10". Now say Player B spends two more Character Points to buy his Running up to 7" -- he now moves 21" per Turn. For only +1/2 more Character Points, Player B Moves 1" faster, gets an extra Half-Phase Action, and may move sooner in a Turn than Player A.

 

EDIT: Also note that at very high levels of Running, the amount of "free" Inches of Movement given by having a higher SPD increases dramatically. For example, someone with 50" of Running and SPD 3 gets an extra 50" "free" over those with SPD 2. That's a pretty huge bonus just for having spent an extra 10 Character Points.

 

Well, it's probably just me. Seems to me, though, that perhaps Movement and SPD should be handled separately -- Movement being independent of SPD, and getting split up evenly among the character's Phases.

 

I'm sure this has come up before. Just want to see what everyone else thinks....

[Fox1]

Re: SPD, DEX, and Movement

 

I'm sure this has come up before. Just want to see what everyone else thinks....

 

The points don't matter. That's right, if the points were a national military, they'd be Canada.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: SPD, DEX, and Movement

 

The points don't matter. That's right' date=' if the points were a national military, they'd be Canada.[/quote']

 

ROFL... Canada has a military?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: SPD, DEX, and Movement

 

ROFL... Canada has a military?

 

And the US has a Justice Department. What's your point?

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: SPD, DEX, and Movement

 

And the US has a Justice Department. What's your point?

 

Good point.

 

So how 'bout that DEX, SPD, and Movement?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: SPD, DEX, and Movement

 

It's an issue, but not one I've ever lost a lot of sleep over. The easy fix is to modify the price of movement, and make it per turn, rather than per phase. Then we get into what the baseline should be.

 

Logically, you double the bases and halve the cost, so a 2 SPD character ends up indifferent (he's the baseline), but then we get 6 SPD characters who still move twice as fast because they can take a half move to move 1" (rounded up), or alternatively who are only permitted to take a half move run every second phase.

 

Flat out running speed doesn't really make a huge difference all that often.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: SPD, DEX, and Movement

 

Good point.

 

So how 'bout that DEX, SPD, and Movement?

 

assuming the characters shared a phase (such as 12) since character B did not buy up his dex he moves at the same time that the other character does. I always make characters with the same dex make a dex roll off. So he wouldn't automatically act first.

 

The way I see speed is reflex time. Movement is how much the character can move each time he gets the chance to react. I don't like splittign up how much a character moves between his phases, it does not make sense to me. If the slower character (speed wise) can move 3" per phase at noramal movement and the faster character (speed wise) can only move 2", that just seems unfair. They should both be able to move thier movement phases, whatever that might be.

 

As with everything this system begins to break down at higher levels. At lower levels, where most characters should be or are, this isnt that much of a a problem.

 

Just my 2 cents

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: SPD, DEX, and Movement

 

It's an issue, but not one I've ever lost a lot of sleep over. The easy fix is to modify the price of movement, and make it per turn, rather than per phase. Then we get into what the baseline should be.

 

Logically, you double the bases and halve the cost, so a 2 SPD character ends up indifferent (he's the baseline), but then we get 6 SPD characters who still move twice as fast because they can take a half move to move 1" (rounded up), or alternatively who are only permitted to take a half move run every second phase.

 

Flat out running speed doesn't really make a huge difference all that often.

 

True. And if it does, perhaps I should limit characters to all having the same SPD (say in a footrace, not in combat). For example, if everyone is running flat-out, they all act at SPD 3 or 4 (they're theoretically moving every single Segment, really, but that would create speeds much higher than the human norm of 25 - 30 mph in world-class sprinting).

[Mister E]

Re: SPD, DEX, and Movement

 

Yeah, it wouldn't bother me if this was addressed in 6th ed.

 

SPD is the most dangerous and annoying aspect of the entire system. Average people have a SPD of 2... exceptional people have a SPD of 3... Herioc Characters generally have a SPD of 4... Superheroic Characters generally have a SPD of 5...

 

If you are a Dark Champion, ex-high-wire circus trapeze artist, who has black belts in 6 martial arts, and fights crime on the roof-tops of Hudson City... you probably have a SPD of 4.

 

If you are a Superhero, and you ride around in a Wheelchair shooting EB's with your eyes... you probably have a SPD of 5... (not to mention, a DEX and CON of 20).

 

If there is any difference in SPD between Characters and/or NPC's, there is a huge gap in combat ability that is impossible to effectively reconcile.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: SPD, DEX, and Movement

 

True. And if it does' date=' perhaps I should limit characters to all having the same SPD (say in a footrace, not in combat). For example, if everyone is running flat-out, they all act at SPD 3 or 4 (they're theoretically moving every single Segment, really, but that would create speeds much higher than the human norm of 25 - 30 mph in world-class sprinting).[/quote']

 

you can do that if you want, I wouldn't but then that's me. I still remember back when my enormous critter only had 6" running. If it weren't for her higher speed the humans would have out run her. It was like she lazily sauntered everywhere.

 

I like to think of running speed as this...

Speed determines when you act so lets say you have speed 2 and movement 6", the you run 6" every 6 seconds or so

If you have speed 4 and 6" running, you run 6" every 3 seconds. So you are twice as fast in a flat foot race.

 

I'm not a fan of penalizing a character who choose to buy speed instead of run distance by making them run the same as everyone else.

 

But eh, not my call. If it works the way you want and your players like it...run with it!

[Mister E]

Re: SPD, DEX, and Movement

 

ROFL... Canada has a military?

Canada declaired war on the Axis, during WWII, 24 hours before we did, after the attack on Pearl Harbor.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: SPD, DEX, and Movement

 

Yeah, it wouldn't bother me if this was addressed in 6th ed.

 

SPD is the most dangerous and annoying aspect of the entire system. Average people have a SPD of 2... exceptional people have a SPD of 3... Herioc Characters generally have a SPD of 4... Superheroic Characters generally have a SPD of 5...

 

If you are a Dark Champion, ex-high-wire circus trapeze artist, who has black belts in 6 martial arts, and fights crime on the roof-tops of Hudson City... you probably have a SPD of 4.

 

If you are a Superhero, and you ride around in a Wheelchair shooting EB's with your eyes... you probably have a SPD of 5... (not to mention, a DEX and CON of 20).

 

If there is any difference in SPD between Characters and/or NPC's, there is a huge gap in combat ability that is impossible to effectively reconcile.

 

I can understand this. But the more I think abou how fights go down irl, the person with the faster reflexes should win, unless his oponent is extremely good at counteracting such things. Slow opponenets tend to get beatten up on.

 

I does not always make sense for players to buy thier characters speeds up. That is where most of my issues come from. A character doesn't need speed 6 just because you can afford to buy it. The geriactric wheelchair Super may have speed 5, but he also might have his movement dropped to 1" while in combat. He might be dextrous with his hands or arms, and a player should be limiting thier use of speed to such things.

 

I have a character with Speed 8, but that character may only use 3 of his phases to move. The rest must be used in other ways.

 

It's all in how the character is built that makes them overly powerful or unbalanced. If a GM is paying attention to what goes into the game most of these things can be cleared up before it begins.

 

Edit: Also, I've had my A** handed to me by a much slower opponent. So speed isn't everything unfortunately =P

 

In our Sci-Fi game we have speeds 2-6 in players. The speed 6 player is also our tank. But we ar all effective in combat. Opponents have been faster and slower than almost all of us respectively.

[nobody]

Re: SPD, DEX, and Movement

 

Hey Jess, when did Chris ever throw something at us with speed four or higher? oh, and it certainly works to our benefit that Rocky is spd 6. He practically hands every battle to us on a plate:rolleyes:

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: SPD, DEX, and Movement

 

Rocky makes battles easier, but no battle (except maybe the balrogs) was unbeatable without him. The orcs would have taken more time, sure. But we still would have won.

 

Now also compare the character who buys 1" running with megascale, he's much faster than both character A and B, and he only spent 2 points.

 

It's not the points that matter, it's the concept.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: SPD, DEX, and Movement

 

Hey Jess' date=' when did Chris ever throw something at us with speed four or higher? oh, and it certainly works to our benefit that Rocky is spd 6. He practically hands every battle to us on a plate:rolleyes:[/quote']

 

the Insect Over mind thing was speed 4/5, but no there has been nothing speed 6 or above. But just because we managed to talk it into not attacking us didn't mean it wasn't there.

 

Yeah he is a little overpowered. It doesn't help tht Roy rides on his back with that damned rifle. But you'll see. We will all surpase his one trick pony soon enough. As it is my character, though only speed 3, could kill him. I can abort to defensive power and fly way outside his reach. One good hit with my Talons would do it, And I have a decent shot at hitting him with an arial moveby. But alas, if he hits me even as a Dragon, I'd get stunned into obivion. It still amuses me to no end that even haymakering he can't deal body damage to me...but he can stun me to GM's Option.

 

Besides, you got Buckla all by yourself. That's more than any of the rest of us can say. Unless you want to count the slave drivers I ate...but honestly they weren't

 

I personally think that Chris takes it too easy on us. We have Rocky, he should throw something at us that rocky can't stun to death easy, like lots of REsistand PD Damage reduction (more than the 25%-50% he gave the balrog). Or trap him somehow. Oh, and there was that rival battle that brian fought. His opponent was the same speed as him (3 I think) and would have succeeded. Rocky also has fears that should be exploited. He is easy to scare away.

 

I'll still maintain that chris could have avoided the problems we have with rocky by settign limits on speed and stats, and by fixing the weapons rules. But it's still not that bad. We did take significant damage from the Elite Mutated Orcs, and I took damage from the Flying insectoids.

 

All in all it isn't that bad. He's the only outlire. Too bad for us the most experienced player on our team knows how to build really effective characters.

 

Oh, and Nobody. Remember, speed limit for the fall game is 8. And I will be throwing faster things at you guys occasionally. Adv. speed of opponents is 4-6. The slowest thing I'll even bother having you guys fight are Speed 3. But nasty Speed 3s at that. Normal human mooks will of course be speed 2 and what not, but if you want to fight them I probubly wont make you roll.

 

And as always, My advice is to build the character the way it should be to fit concept. Not the way you want it to be to kick butt.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: SPD, DEX, and Movement

 

Rocky makes battles easier, but no battle (except maybe the balrogs) was unbeatable without him. The orcs would have taken more time, sure. But we still would have won.

 

Now also compare the character who buys 1" running with megascale, he's much faster than both character A and B, and he only spent 2 points.

 

It's not the points that matter, it's the concept.

 

Agreed. About the concept v. points. I mean look at Stanley.

 

Actually, I could have taken down the Balrogs given enough time. I delt 32 armor piercing Body and X3 stun multiplier to the head of one of them before he took it down. After defenses it was still a substantial ammount of damage. It wasn't impossible, it would have just taken a lot longer. I also would have finally needed those batteries I had been carrying.

 

Also, if that Balrog had succeded in ramming rocky, rocky would ahve been SOL. It's crappy OCV saved his life

 

Of course, we were not really ment to just go in there and beat them up...

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: SPD, DEX, and Movement

 

ok, i take back about the balrogs.

 

And i'll state that having the extra speed is more usesful than the increased inchs running (on average) and it's highly unlikely that two characters will just have a footrace. Also what's the diffrence if once character buys an increased NCM?

 

and it's a shotgun

[Onyxclaw]

Re: SPD, DEX, and Movement

 

ok, i take back about the balrogs.

[/Quote]

aww no worries ^^

 

And i'll state that having the extra speed is more usesful than the increased inchs running (on average) and it's highly unlikely that two characters will just have a footrace. Also what's the diffrence if once character buys an increased NCM? [/Quote]

 

also agreed, under most cercumstances speed is better...unless you need to get somewhere in one phase.

 

Not sure on the NCM.

 

and it's a shotgun

 

hehe I know ^^ I also knew you'd find this thread....

Just pulling your leg, I mean symbiote

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: SPD, DEX, and Movement

 

ok, A buys +4" running, B buys +1 SPD, C bought Megascale, D buys x8 NCM for 10 pts. (one lvl buys x4, the next buys x8),

 

A: 40" non combat

B: 36" non combat

C: 1 km

D: 48" non combat

[nobody]

Re: SPD, DEX, and Movement

 

Well, Roy and Onyx, I meant that Rocky makes battles really easy, not just doable, particularly with his luck and club of gravity whoopa**. Oh, and I had forgotten about that alien overmind thing.

 

Anyhoo, while I agree that Spd is a measure of combat reflexes, having good reflexes does not necessarily mean the person is faster when running. I mean, I know people who can catch flies on the wing and couldn't win a footrace to save their life. Of course, that could be represented by buying down their running. Overall, it is a bit of a sticky wicket.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: SPD, DEX, and Movement

 

Well, Roy and Onyx, I meant that Rocky makes battles really easy, not just doable, particularly with his luck and club of gravity whoopa**. Oh, and I had forgotten about that alien overmind thing.

 

Anyhoo, while I agree that Spd is a measure of combat reflexes, having good reflexes does not necessarily mean the person is faster when running. I mean, I know people who can catch flies on the wing and couldn't win a footrace to save their life. Of course, that could be represented by buying down their running. Overall, it is a bit of a sticky wicket.

 

*sigh* yes-sir-ee-bob that is a sticky wicket. I have covered that with NPCs buy limiting the phases in which they may move, lowering thier run speed, and buying speed on certain tasks.

 

It is the whole "concept" vs. "point effeciency" delima. If you shouldn't be able to win a marathon then you should fix your character o in the world he's in, he can't. you could even sell back most of your running and then re buy it with NCM. So you are slower in combat but wont get left behind out of it.

 

LOL, you should se the bald squat fat man I built. He has speed 4, but his run speed is 1" even if he ran every phase he wouldn't be able to outrun the adverage human. Bt then if he ran all the time he wouldn't be like that now would he Sometimes it pays to have alternate means of transportation.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: SPD, DEX, and Movement

 

ok, A buys +4" running, B buys +1 SPD, C bought Megascale, D buys x8 NCM for 10 pts. (one lvl buys x4, the next buys x8),

 

A: 40" non combat

B: 36" non combat

C: 1 km

D: 48" non combat

 

yeah, but NCM has a bunch of disadvantages attached to it...so I don't think it's that unbalanced.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: SPD, DEX, and Movement

 

yeah' date=' but NCM has a bunch of disadvantages attached to it...so I don't think it's that unbalanced.[/quote']

 

i never said it was unbalanced, i just brought it up as another thing to compare

[Onyxclaw]

Re: SPD, DEX, and Movement

 

i never said it was unbalanced' date=' i just brought it up as another thing to compare[/quote']

 

yeah.

 

Oh quick question...don't you have a minimum run distance when you buy megascale movement? I know that is talks somewhere about how with teleport a GM can allow you to teleport close by through the reasoning that you teleport farther away and then port back to where you wanted to be...

 

Might make the running more difficult, unless you always run in circles a-la Billy from Family Circus o_O

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: SPD, DEX, and Movement

 

yeah you move minimum 1km. So it's not valuable for in combat, but if you want to win a footrace or the marathon, or outrun an explosion...