Clubs, Lethal Weapons? (Killing Damage Not Normal)

[Hierax]

Lethal Clubs (Killing Damage Not Normal)?

 

I've been thinking about and experiment with changing Clubs, Staves, etc. to Killing Damage Weapons instead of the Normal Damage standard used in the Hero System.

 

Ends:

• More Lethal to unarmored people (More BODY Damage vs. 0 rDEF)
  
• Less Lethal to heavily armored people (Less BODY Damage vs. 1+rDEF)
  
• More likely to Knockout (More STUN)

Means:

• Killing Damage instead of Normal Damage = More Lethal
  
• Reduced Penetration (-¼) = Less Lethal vs. Armored
  
• +1 STUNx (+¼) = More Likely to Knockout

What do you think about the current Lethality, or lacktherof, of Clubs and this proposal?

 

THANKS!

[Old Man]

Re: Clubs, Lethal Weapons? (Killing Damage Not Normal)

 

I don't really see clubs as being lethal weapons. I know they CAN be but unless they have studs or nails or an edge to them (Last of the Mohicans) I don't think they qualify as killing attacks.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Clubs, Lethal Weapons? (Killing Damage Not Normal)

 

The distinction between Nornal and Killing attacks is artifical to begin with. You can kill someone with your fist, sometimes without even trying to. Anything that can do any sort of damage to a human body can, with the proper application of force, do enough damage to kill. even some things we normally don't think of as attacks can be fatal -- shaking soemone, for example, may be a simply act of anger or frustration, but it can result in lethal brain damage.

 

In game system terms, Normal Damage exists so that strong people aren't splatering their foes all over the pavement with their pounches. In the real world, if someone with a STR 40 were to punch me in the stomach full force, I'd die instantly and messily. Normal Dam,age is a mechanic that enables the superheoric scale to exist without becoming a bloodbath.

 

This also reminds me of another major difference between fiction and reality -- how many fictional characters suffer cumulative effects from all the concussions they must recieve?

[Curufea]

Re: Clubs, Lethal Weapons? (Killing Damage Not Normal)

 

Not even D&D characters in fiction get cummulative hitpoint damage... There is only so far you can push willing suspension of disbelief.

[Hierax]

Re: Clubs, Lethal Weapons? (Killing Damage Not Normal)

 

OK, I knew that something was bugging me about this Lethal option.

 

So, I just ran the detailed numbers on it for BODY and STUN vs. a range of armor types and the Killing Damage Clubs are actually less Lethal than the Normal Damage Clubs because of the crippling Reduced Penetration Limitation!

 

It turns out that except against the unarmored, the very lightest armored , and creatures with a very high PD Killing Damage does less BODY! The STUN is almost exactly the same, with only a minor insignificant variation even at the highest Damage levels.

 

Well, chalk this one up as a failed experiment

[Fox1]

Re: Clubs, Lethal Weapons? (Killing Damage Not Normal)

 

So' date=' I just ran the detailed numbers on it for BODY and STUN vs. a range of armor types and the [b']Killing Damage Clubs are actually less Lethal than the Normal Damage Clubs because of the crippling Reduced Penetration Limitation![/b]

 

Are you restricting yourself to only book limitations?

 

If not, you can try something like one of my House Rules. It doesn't split the damage roll like Reduced Penetration, but instead just multiples any encountered resistant defenses by a set value.

 

For example, a -1/2 limit results in the resistant defense being increase by 1.5 times. So a 2d6 attack hitting a 2 rPD and 10 PD attack would be resolved as if the target had a 3rPD and 10 PD attack.

 

The full details are on my website under Limits- New\Armor Effect. Depending upon how big a deal it is in your compaign, you may want to change the limit value up or down a bit.

[Lemurion]

Re: Clubs, Lethal Weapons? (Killing Damage Not Normal)

 

However, I can see an idea of making an iron-shod quarterstaff a killing weapon. Those things are NASTY.

[Cantriped]

Re: Clubs, Lethal Weapons? (Killing Damage Not Normal)

 

you'd be amazed how much damage two opponants armed with bludgeoning weapons can do to each other and not kill eachother, and thats with no armor. Granted, somthing that many people don't realize is that in midevil combat two fully armored warriors were essentially incapable of doing meaningful damage to eachother, instead they clubed eachother with thier swords until one beat the other to unconsiousness (negative STUN), and then stuck the pointy end in (coup de grace).

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Clubs, Lethal Weapons? (Killing Damage Not Normal)

 

you'd be amazed how much damage two opponants armed with bludgeoning weapons can do to each other and not kill eachother' date=' and thats with no armor. Granted, somthing that many people don't realize is that in midevil combat two fully armored warriors were essentially incapable of doing meaningful damage to eachother, instead they clubed eachother with thier swords until one beat the other to unconsiousness (negative STUN), and then stuck the pointy end in (coup de grace).[/quote']

It was even more common to, after you had beaten your foe, to take him as a prisoner. If you were wealthy enoguh to afford good armor, you or your lord would foten be able to pay a substantial ransom for your freedom. war was as much busienss as poltiics in the fedual era, and it was frequently not in your best interests to kill a noble foe (peasant levies were another matter entirely).

 

Modern audiences don't realize quite what a shock it was in Shakesp[eare's Henry V when King Henry orders his army to slay all their prisoners rather than ransoming them. Not only was this denying his men a substantial amount of money, but it was a symbol that he no longer cared about the established rules of warfare, and would settle for nothing less than the total destruction of the then-extant French state. In the play, it is portrayed as revenge for an equally atrocious action by the French, who had raided the English baggage train and slaughtered the non-combatant squires and pages who were guarding it, but it was still a potent deed with profound implications.