I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

I would rather 'unbalance' the game in favour of less points rather than more' date=' considering MF is an easily abused power, and a huge advantage in it's own right.[/quote']

 

Agreed. Where I would disagree is approach. I would solve this by monitoring for, and preventung, abuse on a case by case basis. I don't see an arbitrary house rule solving the problem.

 

I do agree that a multiform allowing a character that is beyond campaign point limits is, as a general rule, unbalancing. It may not be if the use of that alternate form is sufficiently limited, but that's not the "classic" Multiform.

 

Sure' date=' your less powerful form is being penalized, but now your 'Combat Form' is going to be worth exactly what everyone else is worth. And most likely your other form doesn't need to be made on any more than 210ish points anyhow.[/quote']

 

Let's poke some holes in your structure. Why don't I base my "other form" on 200 points, and buy 2x Forms for my Multiform. Now I have three forms, the 200 point nebbish, a 350 point Combat form, and a 350 point "skilled scientist" form. 200 points (350 - 75 for the multiform cost - 75 for the multiform again) is stkll quite a bit, so I could have lots more forms if desired. So, I'll let my friend here ask the question:

 

"Why Radiokaos pick on puny Banner, just because him not have Punier Banner Base Form? Hulk like, because Hulk hate Banner, but Hulk am confused by logic."

 

Back in 4th Ed [not sure if you ever played it' date= so I'll clarify] MF was restricted that way for ALL of your forms. No form could be worth more than the base form minus the costs for MF. Of course we're also talking 250pt characters back then as well.

 

That's not the way I recall it, but we didn't, and don't, use MF that much. My recollection was that, because the highest cost form paid for MF, the other forms couldn't have more points than "base - Multiform cost". So I could have a base character who effectively had 292 points, plus spent 58 on Multiform. He could have a 290 point (58 x 5) Multiform.

 

Under your model, he could be a 180 point character, +35 for Multiform, +35 for the double taxation of Multiform = 250. He can have a 175 point alternate form. I wish I had my boks - Jaguar's writeup would probably answer the question of which of our two interpretations are correct, since his main power was his Multiform.

[ghost-angel]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

Back in 4th Ed [not sure if you ever played it' date= so I'll clarify] MF was restricted that way for ALL of your forms. No form could be worth more than the base form minus the costs for MF. Of course we're also talking 250pt characters back then as well.

I did, so I found the BBB and the Hero System Rulesbook and checked both.

 

The wording leaves something to be desired as they don't give an example of exactly what they're talking about.

 

But - Base Form = 250pts (Highest point form per 4e). Second Form can not have more points than the Base Form - Multiform costs: that's the Maximum in the Second Shape.

 

The book doesn't bother to find an example with the point break in it. I will.

42 Points gets you a 210 Point Multiform, 250-42=208pts. So the 210 pts Multiform can only use 208pts to build on. The Base Form is really 250pts with 42pts in the Multiform Power for a 208pt (you lose 2pts on a strict interpretation) Second Form.

 

As Hugh pointed out - under your model instead of paying once for a 42pt Multiform they pay twice for a 21pt Multiform. Giving them a 208+21+21=250pt Base Form and a 105pt Second Form.

 

Hugh, for reference, Jaguar is built 250pts Base Form that has a 40pt Multiform Power for a 200pt Human Shape. (The Base Form uses the rest of the 210pts to make the Jaguar Shape, it does not subtract an addt'l 40pts for having a Multiform.)

[Sean Waters]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

Hello everyone.

 

Some interesting points all round. Like Bloodstone's take on the high point game angle.

 

I tend to play around 350 points. If I have multiform the total cost of any one form would not exceed 350 points. My view is that, if it did, the construct would be abusive in the context of the game. That might depend on build to a degree, but not a lot. I think the example in the book (of a 350 pointer having a 400 point form) is not helpful in that it encourages potential abuse. Mind you, it might well cost 400 points to simulate a Tyranosaur, and the beasty many not be particularly effective in a Champions combat. Big forms like that are often not very points efficient.

 

I generally have no problem, assuming the strongest form doesn't exceed the campaign limit, with one of the weaker forms bearing the cost of the multiform. The problem with multiform characters is exactly the same as the problem with VPPs and suchlike: they can be Master of All trades types. You have a brick, a blaster, a mentalist and a wimpy nerd, and you become whichever is best in the circumstances. The problem is that it may never be 'best' to be the wimpy nerd and as MF is persistent and costs no END, it could be quite a trick making you become the wimpy nerd.

 

So most multiform characters have to have some reason to revert built in to the character, whether it be accidental change or a need to spend time in each form. Like many powers, it is a balance between concept and raw power. If you want to abuse MF, it is easy to do, but sometimes it is the only way that feels right for the construct you have in mind. The GM has to be willing to say 'No' to the player...and if necessary, slap them whilst doing so.

 

It is quite amazing that MF doesn't even merit a looking glass.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

If you will humor me for a minute, I was thinking about something last night, after reading up on this thread.

 

Let's put aside for a moment the cost to build a MF character and who pays what and how, and skip to advancement of that character.

 

I realize that the imediate knee-jerk response is 'because that's the price according to the rules to build it,' but I am looking for something more-- or perhaps less-- than that.

 

There are obviously several of you who have used MF far more than any of my players have, and to you I ask:

 

How do you justify a player whose character effectively advances five times faster than everyone else in the party? Yes, fine-- it's entirely possible that your concept needs oodles of points, and it's nice to get those in a hurry, but if you were playing any other type of character, you would advance 'as normal' and most likely not think twice about it.

 

What is inherent in MultiForm that such characters have a 'right' to advance at quintuple the rest of the party?

[ghost-angel]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

If you will humor me for a minute, I was thinking about something last night, after reading up on this thread.

 

Let's put aside for a moment the cost to build a MF character and who pays what and how, and skip to advancement of that character.

 

I realize that the imediate knee-jerk response is 'because that's the price according to the rules to build it,' but I am looking for something more-- or perhaps less-- than that.

 

There are obviously several of you who have used MF far more than any of my players have, and to you I ask:

 

How do you justify a player whose character effectively advances five times faster than everyone else in the party? Yes, fine-- it's entirely possible that your concept needs oodles of points, and it's nice to get those in a hurry, but if you were playing any other type of character, you would advance 'as normal' and most likely not think twice about it.

 

What is inherent in MultiForm that such characters have a 'right' to advance at quintuple the rest of the party?

you seem to be assuming we would put all our experience into MF.

 

On average I put from 20-25% of my experience into MF and that tops out around the first 40-60pts of experience. AFter that the % of experience placed into MF drops to 0-5% of my experience. I've several forms that don't reach even the characters base points before experience, much less after.

 

Generally I try and keep my Multiforms within the Campaign Guidelines for Active Points on characters (our games run to 60 for Attack Powers, 75 with Non-Attack powers and a good reason). That seems to work much better than aribrary highest form must pay rules.

 

Then, I've always built my MFs with the Base Form being the primary interaction form and thus the one that aquiring the experience applies most to.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

you seem to be assuming we would put all our experience into MF.

 

Not at all. As I said, this has nothing to do with any campaign, or any character, or any player's style, or anything else. I am simply looking at the mechanic itself, which as it stands allows any player to put all of his experience into his alternate form, which grants a huge bonus. And yes, there are cautions, etc, but these are not the mechanic itself. They are warnings about the mechanic.

 

On average I put from 20-25% of my experience into MF and that tops out around the first 40-60pts of experience. AFter that the % of experience placed into MF drops to 0-5% of my experience. I've several forms that don't reach even the characters base points before experience' date=' much less after.[/quote']

 

I understand that; as I said, my first experience with a player using an MF was very character-concept driven, and did the same. The second using MF, he was--- well, he was an MF in the classic sense. But even in this example, your 25% expenditure into your MF is in essence a net gain of 25% of the experience you were rewarded.

 

My question was, and still is, what is the justification for that, either game-wise or from the source material?

[prestidigitator]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

Heh, heh. "Grok." Heh. Yeah.

 

I just have to say that again. Every time I see the thread title I think it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

My question was' date=' and still is, what is the justification for that, either game-wise or from the source material?[/quote']

This can only be answered, in my opinion, on a case by case basis given the game and player involved. A broad category flat answer would not do this particular power justice.

 

But, assuming you follow the suggested Guidelines in the book for a standard Supers game you're looking at 60 Active Points in a Power - for Multiform that's a single 300 point Other Form.

 

Given that fact you have (subtractin the cost of MF) one 290pt Character (290+60 = full 350pt Base Form) and one 300pt Character. Neither of which is individually as powerful (argueably) than the rest of the team.

 

Once you breach those guidelines everything should be analyzed on a case by case basis by the GM to make sure it fits within his game. The sole justification is, at that time, "Because this is what I would like to do with my character."

 

Which, when you get to it, is all the justification you should need to build a character inside or outside the guidelines. A strong concept is self justifying, IMO.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

This can only be answered' date=' in my opinion, on a case by case basis given the game and player involved. A broad category flat answer would not do this particular power justice.[/quote']

 

As the Power currently stands, you are absolutely correct. However-- and please do keep in mind that it is just for the sake of discussion; I have no interest in peeing in anyone's sweet tea-- what I am looking for, while perhaps not a broad category flat answer to the question, but at least a broad category flat answer as to why there isn't one. Even deciding to jusdge each character 'case by case' does not answer the question; it simply copes with the discrepancy.

 

But' date=' assuming you follow the suggested Guidelines in the book for a standard Supers game you're looking at 60 Active Points in a Power - for Multiform that's a single 300 point Other Form.[/quote']

 

I do not, because I cannot. I am still running 250 pt games. While all of my players enjoy every aspect of the game, no one feels unsatisfied that they are unable to make the constructs they concieve. Add in that we don't use the bulk of 5E as more than reference material, then there is little motivation to raise the points level of starting characters.

 

Given that fact you have (subtractin the cost of MF) one 290pt Character (290+60 = full 350pt Base Form) and one 300pt Character. Neither of which is individually as powerful (argueably) than the rest of the team.

 

This is (points adjusted, of course) how we currently handle MF, yes. I was under the impression earlier that it was the way that radioKAOS did it as well; I had mis-read his post.

 

But in the same vien that you say "neither of which is as powerful than the rest of the team," keep in mind that no player is ever obligated to spend to his 'limit;' if he can enjoy the game with a 100 point character, then by all means he is welcome to do so.

 

The default setting of MF allows you to switch between forms pretty much at your convenience. Assuming that the two forms in your example are polar opposites, or even more craftily: adjusted for each other's shortcommings, you have at your command an effective six-hundred and forty character points to design a character. Yes, you'll have a lot of duplicate spending-- defenses, movement, what-have-you. Let's not go into it because character generation is not the question I am trying to address; I have no issues with the character generation rules for MF, and besides, there are many, many other debates for that point.

 

Once you breach those guidelines everything should be analyzed on a case by case basis by the GM to make sure it fits within his game.

 

This is how it is currently handled, and this is how the rules have always suggested handling it. But it is not an explanation. It is a replacement for an explanation. "Why do we stop for redlights?" is being answered with "make sure it's green."

 

The sole justification is, at that time, "Because this is what I would like to do with my character."

 

Ah! We're getting to the crux of the question! _All_ XP are spent for exaclty this same reason. The T-porter? Because it's what he wants to do with his character. The Martial Artist? Because it's the path the character has chosen. The Brick? Because it's the direction that he sees the character moving. XP can only be spent for development (buying off disads is development, just not glamorous); every bit of XP ever spent has been spent on development. And the 'how' and 'where' of the spending has always been 'because it's right for the character.' I am not now, nor am I ever going to be, arguing that.

 

What I am asking is why is the progression so much higher for an MF? What secret trait is inherent in that second form that allows it to gain so much more from the same experience the other characters are gaining?

 

Which' date=' when you get to it, is all the justification you should need to build a character inside or outside the guidelines. A strong concept is self justifying, IMO.[/quote']

 

And you are quite right, but then you have to bring in GM permission, etc, with the current rate of advancement for MFs. But staying in the guidelines is expected of _all_ characters, not just the MFs. With the exception that all the other character types are required to do it at 1/5 the rate. Why is this?

 

Now, truth be told, I'm pretty sure I know why, or at least can offer a common-sense answer. But I'm not happy with it, and would like to see some other ideas on this from some other folks.

[Sean Waters]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

Heh, heh. "Grok." Heh. Yeah.

 

I just have to say that again. Every time I see the thread title I think it.

 

....and for those of you who do not grok that or which he speaks....

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grok

[ghost-angel]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

And you are quite right, but then you have to bring in GM permission, etc, with the current rate of advancement for MFs. But staying in the guidelines is expected of _all_ characters, not just the MFs. With the exception that all the other character types are required to do it at 1/5 the rate. Why is this?

 

Now, truth be told, I'm pretty sure I know why, or at least can offer a common-sense answer. But I'm not happy with it, and would like to see some other ideas on this from some other folks.

I believe that under pre-5E once you reach the top end (Base Forms Total Points) you go into a 1-1 Ratio for MF and other such powers (such as duplication). I could be wrong.

 

As for why a 1-5 Ratio at creation .. because 1-1 at that point would cripple the power to the point of it being silly. And Hero likes to do things in groups of 5.

 

Best solution? If you feel, once you reach a certain point, that advancement should be slowed reduce the ratio to 1-2 or 1-3, or even 1-1.

 

Or keep it at 1-5 with the stipulation you can only spend 1 of 5 experience in that power thus when the Base Form has gone up 5 points, the MF has only also does the same.

 

I don't answer Why, because my Why could, and probably is, radically different from your Why.

 

My Why is: Because the book says it's 1-5 and I have no issue with allowing for total flexibility cutting it off only when a single person attemps to break the game as presented.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

I believe that under pre-5E once you reach the top end (Base Forms Total Points) you go into a 1-1 Ratio for MF and other such powers (such as duplication). I could be wrong.

 

Ah. I'll have to check that when I get unpacked. Thanks.

 

As for why a 1-5 Ratio at creation .. because 1-1 at that point would cripple the power to the point of it being silly. And Hero likes to do things in groups of 5.

 

Agreed. And as I stated, I have no issue with the 1-5 ratio for character creation.

 

Best solution? If you feel' date=' once you reach a certain point, that advancement should be slowed reduce the ratio to 1-2 or 1-3, or even 1-1.[/quote']

As you recall, I ended up doing that very thing with the second MF I ran for.

 

Or keep it at 1-5 with the stipulation you can only spend 1 of 5 experience in that power thus when the Base Form has gone up 5 points' date=' the MF has only also does the same.[/quote']

This has a great deal of merit, but I dislike inhibiting a character's development unless it is obviously going to be a problem in the game.

 

my Why could' date=' and probably is, radically different from your Why.[/quote']

Without a doubt. But, from those who are willing, I am actually interested in hearing what the various "Whys" might be. I am not about to denounce them; I am hoping to learn something from them, and the viewpoints behind them.

 

My Why is: Because the book says it's 1-5 and I have no issue with allowing for total flexibility cutting it off only when a single person attemps to break the game as presented.

 

Fair enough.

 

For what it's worth, my own "Why" is meta-gaming (which, by the way, is why it is dissatisfying): it allows for the fullest convention of the concept. While the bulk of MF characters I've seen over the years (I play as much as I run) have taken it as a cheap-and-dirty way to build the Hulk, or Superman, or some other too-powerful-for-the-starting-points character, this type of character represents, I believe, only a part of the MF convention of characters. A one-to-five ratio allows a beginning character to build three or four lower-powered but specific-utility forms, such as someone who can shift shapes into various animals. As such characters are known to have a wide repetoire, the continued 1-5 ratio for advancement allows the player to work meta-game at building and improving his reptoire sometime before the end of the campaign.

 

That's my 'Why."

 

Anybody else have an opinion?

[radioKAOS]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

The Hulk is actully PAYING points to get a disadvantge, that disadvantage being "occasionally turns into a puny 100pt character in a 1500pt game!"Capt. Marvel by contrast (who lets say is built using OIHID) gets a freaking -1/4 break on the cost of every one of his powers!

 

The Hulk just became a 1480pt character for concept while the Big Red Cheese can apply his lim to everything and end up being effectivly a 2000+ pt character. Even if we skip the OIHID comparison, you are still charging the Hulk 20pts to go from an unkillable combat god that can go toe to toe with the Abomination to a nerd that would probably get his *** kicked by Aunt May armed with pepper spray and a rolled up newspaper.

 

To make this worth while, that Puny Banner form better save the day with his superior geek brain all the damn time. Otherwise it may have been better for the Hulk to skip multiform entierly and just buy up INT, a few Science Skills and a very limited Shapshift. Sure, he may not be UBER SCINCE GEEK, but then again he also never has to fear being killed by a stray bullet. Doing this kinda kills the concept, but it's far less dangerous and ultimatly a more worth while expenditure of points.

 

Wow, do you not read?

 

I said that BANNER pays the costs for the multiform, and that BANNER's max points would be equal to 1500 minus the multiform costs. Thus allowing the HULK to be the SAME AMOUNT of points as the other characters.

 

Truthfully I have no more ideas on how to explain this to people. Please re-read my post and if you still can't understand it, send me a PM with your questions regarding it.

 

If you are just joking around and throwing fuel on the fire for the sake of how silly this thread has become, I apologize for not seeing the humour as I've just gotten home from a long day at work and had less than 2 hours of sleep last night.

 

Edit: Incidentally Bloodstone, Having the 'Highest Point Form' pay for the multiform is the way that 4th Ed does it. Using your example of a 1500pt Hulk... Hulk would pay 20pts for Banner, reducing him to 1480pts, and no other form could be more than 1480pts. Of course, that's just according to the rules.... What I was proposing was an intermediate between that and the 5th Ed Ruling that any form can pay the point cost for MF, and there is no restriction to the amount of points spent.

 

Again, I don't know how else to say it, so I'll just stop typing about it at all, thank you very much.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

how silly this thread has become' date=' [/quote']

 

Well, G-A;

 

I think I know why we've not gotten more response.....

[ghost-angel]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

Well, G-A;

 

I think I know why we've not gotten more response.....

Life happens. I'm sure a few others may chime in to your request for Why they do what they do.

[radioKAOS]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

Agreed. Where I would disagree is approach. I would solve this by monitoring for' date=' and preventung, abuse on a case by case basis. I don't see an arbitrary house rule solving the problem.[/quote']

 

Call it arbitrary if you wish, but it seems to me a perfectly logical extension from the 4th Ed rules towards the 5th Ed Rules.

 

I do agree that a multiform allowing a character that is beyond campaign point limits is' date=' as a general rule, unbalancing. It may not be if the use of that alternate form is sufficiently limited, but that's not the "classic" Multiform.[/quote']

 

yay, agreement.

 

Let's poke some holes in your structure. Why don't I base my "other form" on 200 points, and buy 2x Forms for my Multiform. Now I have three forms, the 200 point nebbish, a 350 point Combat form, and a 350 point "skilled scientist" form. 200 points (350 - 75 for the multiform cost - 75 for the multiform again) is stkll quite a bit, so I could have lots more forms if desired. So, I'll let my friend here ask the question:

 

"Why Radiokaos pick on puny Banner, just because him not have Punier Banner Base Form? Hulk like, because Hulk hate Banner, but Hulk am confused by logic."

 

So as to not limit HULK's smashing ability! [Gotta love Hulk logic]

 

You see, 5th Ed takes away the rule [that we had in 4th Ed] that the highest point form has to pay the MF costs. This now allows Banner to pay for the Multiform costs instead of having HULK pay for them. I think this is a little unbalancing, considering the nature of how easily this power can be abused already. My suggestion is to have Banner [and only Banner] be restricted by the ruling that we used to follow for all of the Forms in 4th Ed. - "No form can be worth more than the base form [read: highest point total form] minus the costs for multiform."

 

This allows for the best of both worlds, IMO.

 

 

That's not the way I recall it' date=' but we didn't, and don't, use MF that much. My recollection was that, because the highest cost form paid for MF, the other forms couldn't have more points than "base - Multiform cost". So I could have a base character who effectively had 292 points, plus spent 58 on Multiform. He could have a 290 point (58 x 5) Multiform.[/quote']

 

So yeah, you have it right. Just as I've said it as well. Of course, you are basing the example on a 350pt character [just to clarify the math].

 

Under your model' date=' he could be a 180 point character, +35 for Multiform, +35 for the double taxation of Multiform = 250. He can have a 175 point alternate form. I wish I had my boks - Jaguar's writeup would probably answer the question of which of our two interpretations are correct, since his main power was his Multiform.[/quote']

 

No, no, no no no. In my model you could have Jaguar be made with the full 250pts. The human form could pay for the Multiform instead of forcing Jaguar to do it. The human form would be the only form limited by the "not more than highest form point total minus the cost for multiform" rule. Therefore Jaguar = 250pts [and equal to everyone else on the team] and his human form could be worth up to 200points [the MF costs being 50 at that point to pay for Jaguar], but would have to pay for the Multiform.

 

Please stop thinking of it as a 'double taxation' as it is only further confusing the issue.

 

What my model does is take the rule from 4th Ed that 'no form can be worth more than the highest point total form minus all the costs for the multiform" and changes it to say that "only one of the forms would suffer from this restriction - the one actually paying for the MF."

 

Perhaps I did not clarify that before. I am tired, and sleep comes.

[radioKAOS]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

Well, G-A;

 

I think I know why we've not gotten more response.....

 

lol, wow, goes to show exactly how much of my posts you actually read...

 

Seems you missed the part where I said "I've just gotten home from a long day at work and had less than 2 hours of sleep last night." A 'long day at work' for me means 14hrs+, so I haven't been here all day to respond.

[radioKAOS]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

What I am asking is why is the progression so much higher for an MF? What secret trait is inherent in that second form that allows it to gain so much more from the same experience the other characters are gaining?

 

I don't think they are gaining so much more from the same points. These points have to be used to upgrade both the base form and the secondary forms. Our hero should be able to advance in each of these forms in a manner equal to the other characters in the game. In order to facilitate that, we have the 1 per 5 rule which will allow our hero to keep his forms close to the rest of the troupe in terms of XP spent to advance their characters.

 

Of course my ruling is that the maximum points any secondary form could have at any time would be base + XP earned. So if the Character earned 6 pts, he could put one point into MF to up it to 355 and spend the other 5pts on Banner's new skill levels. I would actually allow the MF to be worth 356pts, being that is the real XP total.

 

Of course I'm probably not making any sense at all, being that I am delerious from lack of sleep. I leave you now until tomrrow night, as I have another long day at work tomorrow. Good night.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

I don't think they are gaining so much more from the same points. These points have to be used to upgrade both the base form and the secondary forms. Our hero should be able to advance in each of these forms in a manner equal to the other characters in the game. In order to facilitate that' date=' we have the 1 per 5 rule which will allow our hero to keep his forms close to the rest of the troupe in terms of XP spent to advance their characters.[/quote']

 

It depends on whether, and how much, one is milking the system. Given we accept a 500 point alternate form in a 350 point game is abusive for a starting character, it's no better to have a starting character with a 350 point alternate form who earns 40 XP and now has a 550 point alternate form while everyone else has 390 point chartacters.

 

Of course my ruling is that the maximum points any secondary form could have at any time would be base + XP earned. So if the Character earned 6 pts' date=' he could put one point into MF to up it to 355 and spend the other 5pts on Banner's new skill levels. I would actually allow the MF to be worth 356pts, being that is the real XP total.[/quote']

 

Capping the second form at the campaign max points makes for a good default. It can be abused (eg. "I have 32 alternate forms, each at campaign max forms, so I can be a better balaster, brick, mentalist, speedster, etc. than the other PC's"), and it can be breached without being abusive (the wizard whose spell can turn him into a dragon, but with heavy limitations), but it focuses scrutiny on the most likely problem areas.

 

OFF TOPIC: 14 hours seems in the game to me. I worked just under 410 hours last April.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

....and for those of you who do not grok that or which he speaks....

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grok

 

The Hell you say! You would believe that on a board dedicated soley to the intelligent emulation of all fiction, all science, and all wisdom arcane that there would be some who do not grok the fullest meanings and origins of this word?!

 

We are, as a unit, insulted, good Sir!

 

:D:D:D

Kidding of course.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

lol' date=' wow, goes to show exactly how much of my posts you actually read... [/quote']

heh heh heh---

I assure you; I read your post in its entirety. Forgive me, but offering condolences in the same post would have limited the humor. You see, I hit the"(" key when I meant to hit the ")", which I had hoped would demonstrate the sunny intent of that post.

 

Even the most sleep-deprived zombie needs a pick-me-up now and again. heh heh heh-- next time, I'll try FTD

[Duke Bushido]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

I don't think they are gaining so much more from the same points. These points have to be used to upgrade both the base form and the secondary forms. Our hero should be able to advance in each of these forms in a manner equal to the other characters in the game. In order to facilitate that' date=' we have the 1 per 5 rule which will allow our hero to keep his forms close to the rest of the troupe in terms of XP spent to advance their characters.[/quote']

(emphasis added)

Agreed. And that need to advance the form means that the form should get points as well as the base character. Agreed. Though I'd like to point out the idea of multiple forms (as you mention above, and thank you!) and reconcile it agains the 1 per 5. With one 'extra' form, you get 1 per 5 XP echange. Yet with 5 forms, you get 1 per 1.

 

Of course my ruling is that the maximum points any secondary form could have at any time would be base + XP earned. So if the Character earned 6 pts' date=' he could put one point into MF to up it to 355 and spend the other 5pts on Banner's new skill levels. I would actually allow the MF to be worth 356pts, being that is the real XP total.[/quote']

So essentially, you suggest a a 1 per 1 spending limit between main form and 'other' form. And I assume (in a good way, of course) that should the character have more than one form, that you would suggest 1 to 1 for each form, thus effectively spending 2 on MF (one per form) for every 1 spent on the main character.

 

]Of course I'm probably not making any sense at all' date=' being that I am delerious from lack of sleep. I leave you now until tomrrow night, as I have another long day at work tomorrow. Good night.[/quote']

No-no; you're making perfect sense. G-A suggested such a House Rule earlier, and I've been forced to mandate that very thing once before, though only against one particular player. So you get some sleep, and I'll just form some thoughts

 

It seems then that your own suggestions point toward the idea that MF should be most effective-- perhaps even intended to be-- when used to create multiple forms. (for what it's worth, I agree with you, on a meta-game level, though I have no problem with 'one alter' forms either. I just think the player is shorting himself).

 

But running with this idea, it seems to me that perhaps whoever is originally responsible for the creation of this power may well have had the same thing in mind. And the idea of 1 per 5 for advancement (as opposed to creation; we all accept it's validity for creation) might just indicate that there was originally a coneptual limit of 5 altered forms.....

 

Or possibly 1 per 5 _is_ very balanced, as it keeps a character from giving 1 to 1 advancement across say ten of twelve forms......

 

Hmmm.....

I've something new to ponder!

 

Who else has a Why?

[radioKAOS]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

heh heh heh---

I assure you; I read your post in its entirety. Forgive me, but offering condolences in the same post would have limited the humor. You see, I hit the"(" key when I meant to hit the ")", which I had hoped would demonstrate the sunny intent of that post.

 

Even the most sleep-deprived zombie needs a pick-me-up now and again. heh heh heh-- next time, I'll try FTD

 

Well thanks. I neglected to mention that the 14 hours were on a movie set for the movie Dungeon Siege, based on the computer game. I am a legionnaire and as such, have to be fighting the evil Krugs. Interestingly enough I found a Krug to fight the other day who had also had some martial arts training, so we tested each other... and tested more, then gave it a little more, and more, and more...

 

It was a great workout, great sparring [with full contact] though for the length of time we were at it, left me a little sore... coupled with the lack of sleep left me a little more than cranky.

[radioKAOS]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

Capping the second form at the campaign max points makes for a good default. It can be abused (eg. "I have 32 alternate forms, each at campaign max forms, so I can be a better balaster, brick, mentalist, speedster, etc. than the other PC's"), and it can be breached without being abusive (the wizard whose spell can turn him into a dragon, but with heavy limitations), but it focuses scrutiny on the most likely problem areas.

 

OFF TOPIC: 14 hours seems in the game to me. I worked just under 410 hours last April.

 

Yeah, the concept has to work as well, and I don't think "my character can change into each of the hero archtypes" is a very good concept. It leaves the player as either a) best at everything or second best at everything.

 

a) isn't any fun for anyone else, and isn't that great for the now 'supporting' character.

[radioKAOS]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

It seems then that your own suggestions point toward the idea that MF should be most effective-- perhaps even intended to be-- when used to create multiple forms. (for what it's worth, I agree with you, on a meta-game level, though I have no problem with 'one alter' forms either. I just think the player is shorting himself).

 

But running with this idea, it seems to me that perhaps whoever is originally responsible for the creation of this power may well have had the same thing in mind. And the idea of 1 per 5 for advancement (as opposed to creation; we all accept it's validity for creation) might just indicate that there was originally a coneptual limit of 5 altered forms.....

 

Or possibly 1 per 5 _is_ very balanced, as it keeps a character from giving 1 to 1 advancement across say ten of twelve forms......

 

I'm with you on this, I think it may well have been thought out for 5 forms. It works perfectly at that amount.

 

Perhaps then, is there some way to formulate it differently for the 'just one form' guys?

 

Incidently, what do you make of the rule about other forms buying vehicles and bases? I think in 4th, the 'main' form paid for it, but all could use it. In 5th it seems that each form that wants to use it needs to pay. Does then the 10pts I've thrown into base from each form add up and allow me to have an extremely massive base for next to no points from my 'base form'?