I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

[M.C. ArZeCh]

Apologies to other posters if this is answered clearly somewhere, but I didn't find it in the FAQs. I'm new to the system and trying to build a test character with an alternate form, and from what I can tell Multiform is what I want to use for this. However, the rules (5th ed., revised) seem to say different things.

 

Let's say I'm building a character with 300 base points, and follow the suggestion of allocating 190 points to their powers (superheroic, power-oriented). If I decide to dump all 190 points into the alternate form, what it seems like the Multiform rules say at first is that I can build an alternate form from 950 points (before picking any disadvantages), meaning my High-Powered Superheroic character has a very Cosmically Powerful change form. This seems like it could unbalance things, which I've gathered is a priority of the system.

 

However, in the part of the rules headed "Base Points and Disadvantages", it appears to be saying that the change form would have 300 points like the true form, and to get it higher I'd have to buy it with disadvantages. Does this mean that if I were going to spend 190 points to make a 950 form, it would by default still have 300 base points and 650 in disadvantages? (By default, that is, unless the GM authorized free point trading as mentioned towards the end of that section.)

 

Is it apparent what I'm confused about? I don't see precisely what the Multiform points are actually buying, whether the character points are (True Form Base Points + Points from Disadvantages)/5, or (New Form's Base Points / 5). I'm guessing at the former, but I just want to get it straight since the presentation in the book is a little awkward to me.

 

As usual, more long-winded than I'd intended....

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

I believe you're buying the new form's total points and, absent special GM permission, you need disadvantages of 750 (assuming a 200+150 game) to balance your new form out.

 

In any case, I wouldn't generally allow you to exceed the game norm in your multiform (many GM's would use base form - cost of multiform). I can think of some specific places I would likely allow a power to exceed game norm, however (eg. Fantasy game - Spell of Shapeshift into Dragon) and/or avoid the disad issue.

 

The overall point is that much of the balance needs to be done by the GM and players. The rules provide a toolkit. Multiform is an easy one to see possible abuses for. Would that character be more balanced if he took his 190 points and spent them on a 20d6 Energy Blast (100 points) and +30/+30 Force Field, 0 END?

 

Or a +50/50 Force Field, 1/2 END and 20 points each of Mental, Power and FLash defense?

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

At first, it can indeed seem contradictory, so don't feel bad.

 

In short:

 

If you want to buy a 500-point other form, it's going to cost you 100 points (points in form / 5).

 

When buying that 500-point form, if the base character is built on 200 points + 150 in disadvantages (a 350-point form) then the new character must be built as 200 base points + 150 in disadvantages (just like the base form) + 150 in additional disadvantages (to make up the "difference" between 350 and 500 points).

 

So you need to pay points via the Multiform and "balance out" the character with the right amount of disadvantages.

 

Now, with the GM's permission -- or, if you're the GM and are building an NPC or villain, your own permission ( ) -- you can ignore that "150 points of additional disadvantages", but that's not reccomended.

[ghost-angel]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

What the other said plus the added confusion of Experience..

 

Adding Experience to a Multiform does not require extra Disadvantages be taken to compensate for the increased point total.

 

The Base+Disadvantages rule applies at character creation only.

 

As Hugh pointed out - this has the potential for massive abuse. However, it's the GMs and Players responsibility to control their game and make sure the abuse does not slip in.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

Longer answer:

 

The reason for this apparent "unfairness" is game balance. It may not be "realistic", it may not seem "fair", and it may not exactly "emulate the comics", but it needs to be done anyway.

 

In regards to the comics, how powerful the characters are and what they do is under the control of a writer. If the character should be easily able to defeat the "villain of the week" because of ready access to some uber-ability but the writer decides to either forget about it, or temporarily deprive the charcter of it, he can do that. That doesn't mean he's a fantastic writer, but he can do it if that's how he wants to run his plot. When playing an RPG, though, you can bet that if a character has an ability, the player's going to use it, and probably as often as they feel they can. Even from the "realistic" standpoint, wouldn't a real person, doing the super-heroic thing, strive to end a fight with a supervillain as quickly as possible in order to minimize collatoral damage and danger to innocents?

 

Just a quick example of what I mean: in those comics or cartoons where the vehicles piloted by the characters have the ability to combine into one much larger, much more powerful form, when do the charcters do it? At the end of the show, after all the dramatic fighting and when "everything else has failed". Now, if you were the commander of that team, would you wait around, having your team attack individually and getting repulsed, before finally giving the order to combine and kick the bad guy's backside? Especially if that sort of thing had happened over and over again, and it always ends up being resolved using the huge firepower of the combined form? Heck no! Bad guy shows up -- you give the order "Combine!" -- and kick the bad guy's butt. Unfortunately, that makes for a short show (or comic issue) and the creators don't want that...so the main characters always wait, for some unfathomable reason, until the last minute to try their "ultimate attack." You wouldn't, and neither would a character's player in an RPG.

 

Now, in the case of multiform, consider this:

 

Let's say the team is made up of 4 characters: a brick (big, strong, tough), an flying energy projector (like, say, the Human Torch), a super martial artist, and the multiformer.

 

The brick spends his 350 points on a lot strength, defense (armor, PD/ED, etc.), a high Stun (so he's not knocked out easily) and not much else...after all, there's only so far 350 points will go.

 

The energy projector spends his on flight, a lot of different attacks (maybe through a Multipower) and some extra DCV so he doesn't get hit a lot -- after all, he's not nearly as tough as the brick.

 

The martial artist buys some good stats across the board (decent strength, high dexterity, stun, end, and speed) and his martial arts fighting style, and probably a fair amount of non-combat skills.

 

Now the multiformer:

 

First, the multiformer pays 140 points to get a 700-point form. Then he pays another 50 points (or 190 points altogether) to have 1,000 different forms available to him.

 

If the multiformer doesn't have to come up with an extra 350 points of disadvantages for each of those 700-point forms, then this will happen:

 

When the team goes into combat, the multiformer picks which of his forms is best for the situation, and changes into it. Now, if he only has 150 points of disadvantages -- like the other characters on the team -- he's only as limited as they are, but he has double their power level! That's not exactly fair to the other players and their characters, and it likely isn't going to be much fun for them, either, because the 700-point form will be able to have so many defenses (and very strong ones) and such high stats that he'll be practically unstoppable; plus his attacks will be so varied and strong he'll be able to take down the biggest, baddest opponents in very short order, leaving the other characters (and players) feeling useless.

 

But it gets worse.

 

With that many forms to choose from, the multiformer is going to be stepping on other character's toes, stealing their "shtick". He can afford to be bigger, stronger, and tougher than the team brick in one of his forms; faster, harder to hit, and with a more potent attack than the energy projector; faster, more dexterous, and more skilled than the martial artist.

 

In other words, he's going to be a one-man assault corps, and will make the other characters and players feel even less useful or necessary.

 

Now consider what happens if you have to make up the "extra" points with disads:

 

With an extra 350 points of disads, that form is going to take damage just from being alive, is going to be allergic to air, and is going to be hated and hunted with a passion by every sentient being in the cosmos! An exaggeration? Maybe. But 350 points in extra disads is a lot of points to have to come up with, so it starts getting ridiculous pretty quick.

 

So you can have your uber-powerful 700-point form, but likely as soon as that character assumes it, 1,058 of his most powerful adversaries are going to show up and work together to pound the snot out of him. The character has all that power, but the player isn't going to have much fun trying to use that power.

 

So in summation, the reason you have to "pay the difference" with "extra" character disadvantages is to keep a multiformer from automatically overshadowing all other characters. By having to "pay the difference", you can't create an alternate form with 2 or 3 times the power of the other characters in the team without making them a hopelessly psychotic cripple who's hunted by the gods themselves -- and that's no fun, either.

[M.C. ArZeCh]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

Thanks all for the clarification. Makes much better sense now.

[ghost-angel]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

Glad we could help. Welcome to the boards.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

Thanks all for the clarification. Makes much better sense now.

You're very welcome; also, welcome to the forums! By and large we're a friendly bunch, and pretty quick to offer advice, explainations, etc. But because there are usually six different ways of doing any given thing using the HERO system, be prepared to get at least six different suggestions/ideas for any given "how do I do this?"-type of question.

[prestidigitator]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

Heh, heh. "Grok." Heh. Yeah.

[JohnTaber]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

Hi Folks,

 

If this already mentioned then sorry...my bad...if not...good.

 

To help maintain play balance I make the player consider the HIGHEST point form their base PC. The lower point form is what they buy with multiform. Thus if Billy B changes into Captain Marvel the PC builds Captain Marvel with a lower point multiform of Billy B.

 

Just a suggestion...

[Rapier]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

So in summation' date=' the reason you have to "pay the difference" with "extra" character disadvantages is to keep a multiformer from automatically overshadowing all other characters. By having to "pay the difference", you can't create an alternate form with 2 or 3 times the power of the other characters in the team without making them a hopelessly psychotic cripple who's hunted by the gods themselves -- and that's no fun, either.[/quote']

 

Huh. And all these years I thought the reason was that if my players didn't do it that way I would hit em with my ruler. Shrug.

[prestidigitator]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

Hi Folks,

 

If this already mentioned then sorry...my bad...if not...good.

 

To help maintain play balance I make the player consider the HIGHEST point form their base PC. The lower point form is what they buy with multiform. Thus if Billy B changes into Captain Marvel the PC builds Captain Marvel with a lower point multiform of Billy B.

 

Just a suggestion...

Yeah. That used to be the standard mechanic, I believe. I think there are just some situations in which it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, like a fantasy wizard who learns a spell to transform himself into a more powerful creature (especially if the GM allows this to be placed in a Framework like a VPP). But if it works for ya, go with it!

[ghost-angel]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

Hi Folks,

 

If this already mentioned then sorry...my bad...if not...good.

 

To help maintain play balance I make the player consider the HIGHEST point form their base PC. The lower point form is what they buy with multiform. Thus if Billy B changes into Captain Marvel the PC builds Captain Marvel with a lower point multiform of Billy B.

 

Just a suggestion...

 

We no longer use this (I always hated it) because it prevents too many concepts.

 

The character paying should be the Base Character - Natural Form for lack of a better term. The best example is someone who is infected with lyncathropy - they change into a Werewolf every full moon. The Base Form is the Human Shape (they were born human, for instance). They Change Into the werewolf (Multiform) - the Human bought the Multiform Power. The werewolf may be more points than the human form.

 

This, obviously, can be severely abused and must be carefully watched. So, while I personally dislike the rule and believe it to be a bad ruling I can see why so many people adopt it - it's just easier that way.

[The Souljourner]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

We no longer use this (I always hated it) because it prevents too many concepts.

 

The character paying should be the Base Character - Natural Form for lack of a better term. The best example is someone who is infected with lyncathropy - they change into a Werewolf every full moon. The Base Form is the Human Shape (they were born human, for instance). They Change Into the werewolf (Multiform) - the Human bought the Multiform Power. The werewolf may be more points than the human form.

 

This, obviously, can be severely abused and must be carefully watched. So, while I personally dislike the rule and believe it to be a bad ruling I can see why so many people adopt it - it's just easier that way.

 

I think the "highest form must be base form" should be the default, with exceptions made only with GM approval. I also believe that alternate forms should by default use the same points structure as the base form, again with exceptions made only with GM approval.

 

Otherwise, people can do exactly what the original poster said and make a ridiculously overpowered alternate form for super cheap.

 

As for the lycanthrope... what's wrong with having the lycanthrope pay for the alternate form? You can define the "base" or "natural" form as any of the forms you want... the rules only define how you pay for the power, not its special effects. So, when you buy the alternate form, the werewolf pays, but in-game, it's the human who has the alternate form.

 

As for the wizard.... in general, transformation spells like that don't actually make the wizard more powerful, he's just powerful in a different way - in melee instead of in spellcasting. Most GMs wouldn't allow you to simply turn into something more powerful... why bother playing your wizard if your über form spell is so much better?

 

There are, of course, exceptions to every rule. The main problem with these rules is that character points don't stay static, so if one form used to be more expensive and is now less expensive, what happens? You kinda have to eyeball it... but I think those two rules make for good guidelines in 95% of circumstances.

 

-Nate

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

As for the lycanthrope... what's wrong with having the lycanthrope pay for the alternate form? You can define the "base" or "natural" form as any of the forms you want... the rules only define how you pay for the power' date=' not its special effects. So, when you buy the alternate form, the werewolf pays, but in-game, it's the human who has the alternate form.[/quote']

Because if someone does something to temporarily remove the character's Multiform ability -- via Drain, Suppress, etc. -- then they revert to the form that paid for the Multiform. If you require the most expensive form to purchase this, you get ridiculous situations like this:

 

"There's Doctor Banner! Quick, hit him with the Gamma Inhibitor Ray so he can't become the Hulk and we can take him into custody!!" (They fire a Ranged Drain vs. Multiform.)

 

Banner changes.

 

Hulk: "Raaaar! Hulk smash puny humans!!!"

 

"What the heck? Why did that happen?" (They run. Fast.)

[Hawksmoor]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

Which is why the Hulk is a OIHID and not a multiform...

 

sometimes...

 

OK when he is the Professor.

 

Hawksmoor

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

(shrug) It all depends on how you write him up. I know a lot of people insist that Billy Batson / Captain Marvel is OIHID, too, and not Multiform, because they're the same basic person/personality. (And the Cap homage in Golden Age Champions was done that way.)

 

But the Hulk / Dr. Banner seem to have very different personalities and they have very different skills sets as well; plus, if you use Banner as the base form and go the OIHID route, then you have to drop his INT when he becomes the Hulk.

 

Personally, I'd say that Banner/Hulk should be Multiform, not OIHID, given the differences I noted.

 

But YMMV.

[The Souljourner]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

Because if someone does something to temporarily remove the character's Multiform ability -- via Drain' date=' Suppress, etc. -- then they revert to the form that [i']paid[/i] for the Multiform.

 

Bah, that's easy to fix... you just have the character designate their "base" form when they're created, and that's what they turn into if they lose their multiform power.

 

-Nate

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

Bah' date=' that's easy to fix... you just have the character designate their "base" form when they're created, and that's what they turn into if they lose their multiform power.[/quote']

Soooo...you're making a house rule...and then you make another house rule to fix your house rule...?

[ghost-angel]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

Bah, that's easy to fix... you just have the character designate their "base" form when they're created, and that's what they turn into if they lose their multiform power.

 

-Nate

 

1) That doesn't follow the rules re Drain. I'll accept you can "house rule" it but that's a kludge at best.

2) Per MULTIFORM in the book: The player must choose one of the character's forms to be the "True Form." .. The cost for Multiform, which only the true form pays for,..."

 

True Form and Base Form are interchangeable for the topic of this discussion.

 

If my True Form is Dr. Banner and my Other Form is Hulk (I don't care how you build your Hulk, I'm using Multiform at the moment.. it's an unimportant detail) if I lose my Multiform I Lose only mt Other Form, I can only be in my True Form: Dr. Banner.

 

Doesn't matter if he's the cheaper or more expensive of the two.

 

I agree, however, that a Multiform that allows for more expensive forms from the Base/True Form should be carefully looked at and approved by the GM.

[Talon]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

As for the wizard.... in general' date=' transformation spells like that don't actually make the wizard more powerful, he's just powerful in a different way - in melee instead of in spellcasting. Most GMs wouldn't allow you to simply turn into something more powerful... why bother playing your wizard if your über form spell is so much better?[/quote']

 

Because usually a powerful transformation will have other restrictions (material components, short duration, side effects, etc.) that make it undesirable to remain in the other form for a long period of time.

 

I do see the merits of having "true form = most expensive form" as default; the risk is that it promotes certain types of the power over others. At the very least the book should have a more explicit discussion of this issue.

[The Souljourner]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

At the very least the book should have a more explicit discussion of this issue.

 

QFT. I think that's the real solution to the problem - just add an exclamation point to the power (if there isn't one already... don't remember), and then make sure to have a long discussion about balancing the power (and maybe suggest that a good guideline is to have the most expensive form as the base).

 

-Nate

[prestidigitator]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

Because if someone does something to temporarily remove the character's Multiform ability -- via Drain' date=' Suppress, etc. -- then they revert to the form that [i']paid[/i] for the Multiform. If you require the most expensive form to purchase this, you get ridiculous situations like this:

 

"There's Doctor Banner! Quick, hit him with the Gamma Inhibitor Ray so he can't become the Hulk and we can take him into custody!!" (They fire a Ranged Drain vs. Multiform.)

 

Banner changes.

 

Hulk: "Raaaar! Hulk smash puny humans!!!"

 

"What the heck? Why did that happen?" (They run. Fast.)

Hmm. That raises an interesting question, though. How do you keep him in his Hulk form if you want to to experiments on him (err...okay the answer used to be that you keep him pissed off...not sure what it is now--didn't he become able to control the change or some stupid thing like that? but nevermind that for the moment).

 

I might allow a Multiform Adjustment to define it either way at creation time (possibly varying with an Advantage): returns them to their base form or keeps them from shifting forms at all.

[ghost-angel]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

Hmm. That raises an interesting question' date=' though. How do you keep him in his [i']Hulk[/i] form if you want to to experiments on him (err...okay the answer used to be that you keep him pissed off...not sure what it is now--didn't he become able to control the change or some stupid thing like that? but nevermind that for the moment).

 

I might allow a Multiform Adjustment to define it either way at creation time (possibly varying with an Advantage): returns them to their base form or keeps them from shifting forms at all.

 

Multiform has a Reversion Advantage/Limitation for it already.

 

The one there is because Multiform is Persistent when you're KO'd, or such, you don't revert. But if you add Reversion to it the character changes to another form defined by the Reversion (a Limitation if the form changed to is less powers, +0 is equally powerful and an Advantage if reverted to a more powerful form).

 

While this specficically deals with Stunned or Knocked Out you could easily stretch it to other uses.

[radioKAOS]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

Maintaining balance, again, is the priority.

 

It's fine with me if the lesser of the two is the base form, as long as the lesser has a point total max equal to the starting limit [350] minus the multiform cost [say 70, assuming no lims on it].

 

So Dr. Banner is worth 280pts, and must pay 70pts for The Hulk [leaving him with 210pts to build with]. The Hulk may be up to the campaign starting max [350], but may only add XP as Dr. Banner gets it, not any faster. That way the Hulk is equal to the rest of the group and Dr. Banner is a sidekick in comaprison.

 

Granted, point wise this only works to start, but keeps the balance fine if Hulk is being kept equal to the other characters.