BL's Vehicle Movement Streamlining Thread

[Guest Black Lotus]

This thread is mainly intended to be a discussion of vehicle DEX, SPD, Movement, Turn Modes, how they interact with one another, and how they ought to be changed (or not) exclusively in the case of vehicles, in order to better simulate vehicle movement. As well, new mechanics might be created to better handle vehicle movement.

 

I know that "Champions II" contains some information on Hero System vehicle movement which may prove more satisfactory than the current 5ER rules -- thanks to Fox1 for the tip. Nevertheless, I would like to get started on a fanpowered revision immediately. In the end, I may be the only one who does any work on the effort, and I may also be the only one who uses the result in his campaigns, but vehicles are very important in my campaigns, and I want them to be a pleasure to create and modify, both for me and for my players.

 

Off the top of my head, there are several issues concerning vehicle movement which I feel ought to be addressed. Note that other persons have already made suggestions concerning some of these issues in the "Vehicle DEX" thread.

 

• Maximum possible Movement in Inches/ Turn is partially dependent upon character SPD. (Thus, a character with a higher SPD may be able to achieve a greater "top speed" -- in an identical vehicle -- than a character with a slower SPD.)
  
• Vehicle DEX. In my opinion, only the size of the vehicle, the velocity at which it is travelling (in relation to the velocity at which the attacker is travelling), and the pilot's skill at maneuvering (combined with just how maneuverable the vehicle can be) should determine how hard a vehicle is to hit.
  
• Turn Modes. According to the rules, a vehicle's Turn Mode is: Current Turn Mode = Distance Traveled This Phase/ 5. That means that every vehicle actually turns at the same rate, because all a Turn Mode tells you is how many Inches you have to travel before you can turn 1 hex side. Some Skill Levels can allow a PILOT to turn faster than that, and there is a -1/4 Limitation that means a vehicle can turn only 2 sides in a given phase, maximum, but Turn Modes are still, IMO, broken.
  

 

That's off the top of my head. My wish to reinvent the vehicle rules is based on a few common assumptions. Firstly, most vehicles which do not operate off of muscle power have a fixed, if somewhat variable, "top speed," regardless of who is driving them. Secondly, no vehicle should have an inherent DEX. Their size, current velocity in relation to the attacker, and maneuverability will determine their DCV. The premise behind DEX being the basis for DCV is that a human will be able to duck and jive away from an attack, something a vehicle is totally dependent upon its pilot to do for it (along with how MUCH the pilot can do, depending on maneuverability). Thirdly, Turn Modes need to be fixed. A skateboard travelling at 20 mph can be turned 720 degrees or more in a split second by a skilled pilot, while a supertanker moving at 60 knots (nautical miles per hour) may take minutes to turn all the way around. This crucial granularity is utterly impossible to simulate using the current Turn Mode rules.

 

There are a few other issues I will address as I think of them. Feel free to add your own input; I welcome it. I WILL come up with a good alternative House Rule system for vehicles, however. I am dedicated to the effort.

[gojira]

Re: BL's Vehicle Movement Streamlining Thread

 

Well, I don't have a huge issue with the way the rules are now. If fact, the only vehicle book I have is Champions II, and I don't see any big differences between that and the current rules. (I gotta get the new rules and read 'em, though.)

 

Most of your points above are just a simplification for gameplay. People don't move when running only on phases 1, 4, 8 and 12 either, but no one is posting huge diatribes against that convention. It's just a way of representing that some heroes are more powerful and "quicker" than others.

 

Having vehicles work the same way is just an extension of that convention. Yes, Heroes *are* supposed to drive faster and be better than villians, and the SPD convention for vehicles represents this fairly well. More complicated systems might model reality better, but they're *more complicated* and that's not always a good thing.

 

I could see changing the rules for certain genres. For example, in a Pulp Hero 1920's gangsters game, where car chases are a big part of the campaign, slightly more detailed rules might be a good idea. But vehicles are rarely a big part of most games, witch tend to center on people, not crews, and I think that simple rules are best for the overwhelming majority of players.

 

 

I think what I'd like to see is vehicle rules discussed per genre, and what the requirements of each genre are for *player enjoyment*. That's the key. If the players aren't having fun, what's the point?

 

Lets see, genres, as I see them:

 

Super Hero: X-Mex--the Blackbird is mostly just a SFX to get players from point A to point B. Little combat or interaction occurs when the team is in the Blackbird, mostly it's one piloting roll to avoid crashing, then everyone is outside and fighting on their own.

 

Pulp Hero: Slolar Smith-- not very realistic, but a lot more interaction occurs when the players are flying around and having combat in their space ship. Players should have an interesting board game type of ship combat to keep them happy.

 

(Note: this could be trouble though. Remember deckers from Shadowrun? While the decker was off in his virtual world fighting black ice and what-not, the other players often had little to do. Most GMs 'round here skipped decking altogether. This could also apply to players with no ship skills during ship sequences. Big red flag here in my opinion.)

 

Pulp Hero: 1920s--this could be much more realistic. Cars and gang-land running car fights should occur somewhat realisticly, or players may be offended. Everyone knows how a car works, so there's a lot to get right here. OTOH, most players will probably be between SPD 3 and 4, and have NCM limits for DEX, so not a lot of variation will occur here either.

 

 

I could come up with more (Fantasy / Historical boat travel, Napoleonic area horseback, etc. etc.) but I think this covers the basics. There are three ways in which all vehicles are used: just travel SFX, not realistic but important, and important and realistic.

 

My three bucks.

[Fox1]

Re: BL's Vehicle Movement Streamlining Thread

 

Well...

 

For myself I've just about decided that the Champion II rules are fine and haven't given much thought to differment methods (gojira is smoking something good if he's thinking they're same as the 5th edition rules). I'm sleeping on it a bit longer, but as of right now the chances are excellent that I'm switching back to them for my campaigns.

 

I'd put them up on my website as they're out of Print now, however I think HERO Games may have serious objections to that and for good reason.

 

Combined with my new house rules covering vehicle combat, I'm almost ready to undertake those vehicle heavy games I've avoided. Still want something to handle component level damage resolution however...

[Duke Bushido]

Re: BL's Vehicle Movement Streamlining Thread

 

Intersting thread, BL;

 

I'd like to see some of your own solutions as well as the problems you perceive. You might have something a few of us might prefer, after all.

 

Note that other persons have already made suggestions concerning some of these issues in the "Vehicle DEX" thread.

Hmmm... I'll have to check those out!

Perhaps you might want to consider copying some of the 'top ten' suggestions to this thread, just to prevent mulitple repeat suggestions....

 

Maximum possible Movement in Inches/ Turn is partially dependent upon character SPD. (Thus' date=' a character with a higher SPD may be able to achieve a greater "top speed" -- in an identical vehicle -- than a character with a slower SPD.)[/quote']

Actually, I agree with that rule (though I _think_ the movement should be applied on the vehicle's phase, and not the pilot's. As I understand it, the pilot's DEX / SPD determine when he can maneuver. This way, the top speed does not depend entirely on the pilot's SPD / DEX. Even a child can 'floor it.') I'm pretty sure I'm not the only former racer who role plays, and probably am not the only one on this board, statistically speaking And it makes sense that a peson with better reactions (higher SPD) is able to wring more out of a vehicle. SPD represents more than "How many times can I shoot every twelve seconds?" It also represents how quickly a character assimilates information, makes decisions, and reacts. Trained skill and talent go a long way, to be sure, but the more you can process, the more you can react to.

 

Vehicle DEX. In my opinion' date=' only the size of the vehicle, the velocity at which it is travelling (in relation to the velocity at which the attacker is travelling), and the pilot's skill at maneuvering (combined with just how maneuverable the vehicle can be) should determine how hard a vehicle is to hit.[/quote']

What specifically do you not like about vehicle DEX? It seems a fair representation of a vehicle's over-all handling. For example, my wife's Vulcan is significantly more nimble than my Valkyrie, but _way_ less maneuverable than my Gixxer. And all of them will out-maneuver my Eliminator-- it's been chopped and modded for drag racing; it almost doesn't steer at all. But they are all roughly the same size (in HERO terms, they are exactly the same size), and, especially the drag bike, they all have very different top speeds. If we can assume that my skill level doesn't change relative to the bike I'm on, then there is most decidely something unique about each bike that radically alters the flickability. For lack of a better term, I think DEX is an extremely appropriate determinant.

 

To expand on that a little bit, in a combat situation, it seems safe to assume that the vehicle's pilot will be looking for trouble. When he sees that attack coming, he's going to do all he can to avoid getting hit. But regardless of how good he is, the vehicle has inherent limits that physics aren't going to let him overcome. If it's not gauche to use my bikes again, the Valkyrie will peg-over and die at less than half the angles the Gixxer is capable of. Because of that, it's nowhere near as nimble and does not like multiple inputs even in series. It has a much lower DEX. (it's part buffalo)

 

I don't see a vehicle as being totally dependant on the pilot as much as I see it being forced to endure both its own limitations and that of the person driving it. Thus, a pilot with a much lower Dex would not be able to exceed his own ability (which I believe both agrees with you and is a part of the rules alread), but also even the best pilot will not be able to exceed the physical limits of the vehicle. No matter how good you are, a D-9 is only going to turn / move / jig so much. And I think that's part of the rules as well.

 

Turn Modes. According to the rules' date=' a vehicle's Turn Mode is: [b']Current Turn Mode = Distance Traveled This Phase/ 5[/b]. That means that every vehicle actually turns at the same rate, because all a Turn Mode tells you is how many Inches you have to travel before you can turn 1 hex side. Some Skill Levels can allow a PILOT to turn faster than that, and there is a -1/4 Limitation that means a vehicle can turn only 2 sides in a given phase, maximum, but Turn Modes are still, IMO, broken.

Again, it would really help to know exaclty why you think they're broken; some suggestions on 'fixes' or even goals you're shooting for would be a big help.

 

Going from what you've posted, I don't see how you arrive at the idea that all vehicles turn the same. Obviously, a vehicle going slower can turn more frequently, which I don't think is unrealistic, really. And as you pointed out, there are Skill Levels available for building a vehicle. You can use them to increase the number of hex facings a vehicle can turn at once, or reduce the travel distance between turns. If your vehicle is more nimble, use Skill Levels to demonstrate that. If it is less nimble, take Limitations to model that as well.

 

Ah, well I see I've gotten ahead of myself and replied to your bulleted categories. Ooops. :o

 

Let me run through the short answers here:

 

Firstly' date=' most vehicles ... have a fixed ... "top speed," regardless of who is driving them.[/quote'] I don't follow you. Most production cars today have limiter chips, yes. These can be removed easily enough, but that's not really the point. Even 'real' cars have a wide variety of attainable top speeds; there's a lot of mechanical relationships that vary from one to the other. Besides, the system is intended to model a wide number of vehicles, from 'real' ones to 'super-science' types. If you intended to say 'most vehicles of a class' or 'of a category' or something like that, then, for the purpose of this discussion, I'll accept it. I won't agree with it, but I'll happily accept it.

 

Secondly' date=' no vehicle should have an inherent DEX. [/quote'] A vehicle's DEX does not represent what it is capable of on its own. It represents the physical limits of that vehicle, or the point at which no amount of skill is going to make the desired maneuver possible. For example, trying to jink with a Bull Dozer, or sling an Alabama Roundhouse with a double-decker bus.

 

Their size' date=' current velocity in relation to the attacker, and maneuverability will determine their DCV.[/quote']

This I can agree with. But when it comes to it, the vehicle's DEX is what determines its maneuverability.

 

Thirdly' date=' Turn Modes need to be fixed. A skateboard travelling at 20 mph can be turned 720 degrees or more in a split second by a skilled pilot, while a supertanker moving at 60 knots (nautical miles per hour) may take minutes to turn all the way around. This crucial granularity is utterly impossible to simulate using the current Turn Mode rules.[/quote']

I wish I had my books unpacked, but I really think that this is precisely what Skill levels and Limitations are intended to represent, is it not?

 

There are a few other issues I will address as I think of them. Feel free to add your own input; I welcome it. I WILL come up with a good alternative House Rule system for vehicles' date=' however. I am dedicated to the effort.[/quote']

Cool! I love to toss ideas around! Can't wait for the next installment!

[Duke Bushido]

Re: BL's Vehicle Movement Streamlining Thread

 

I could see changing the rules for certain genres. For example' date=' in a Pulp Hero 1920's gangsters game, where car chases are a big part of the campaign, slightly more detailed rules might be a good idea. But vehicles are rarely a big part of most games, witch tend to center on people, not crews, and I think that simple rules are best for the overwhelming majority of players.[/quote']

 

I don't know that changing the rules by genre would be a good idea, in light of DOJ's percieved goal of making everything more uniform and thus the system as universal as possible. It brings to mind some of the early genre books for 4E.......

 

Though I think I would _most definately_ go for increasing levels of granularity within the rules. This would not only retain a universal system, but would work well with the theme of other 'optional rules' such as hit location, etc. Use it if you want, but the system itelf remains the same from genre to genre and level to level.

 

 

I'd put them up on my website as they're out of print now' date=' however I think HERO Games may have serious objections to that and for good reason.[/quote']

 

You may well be right, but it never hurts to ask, right? And if you're willing to adhere to all the disclaimers of ownership, etc, they may well let you do it. I don't know. But if you really want to do it, it's at least worth asking about isn't it?

[Talon]

Re: BL's Vehicle Movement Streamlining Thread

 

This thread is mainly intended to be a discussion of vehicle DEX' date=' SPD, Movement, Turn Modes, how they interact with one another, and how they ought to be changed (or not) exclusively in the case of vehicles, in order to better simulate vehicle movement. As well, new mechanics might be created to better handle vehicle movement.[/quote']

 

IMO, any vehicle movement rules fail if they are different / not applicable to character movement. The whole point of Hero is that things should work from the same framework.

 

Of course, that might mean a "moves like a car" Limitation or something, but the base rules should be the 5ER rules.

 

[*]Maximum possible Movement in Inches/ Turn is partially dependent upon character SPD. (Thus, a character with a higher SPD may be able to achieve a greater "top speed" -- in an identical vehicle -- than a character with a slower SPD.)

 

Yup, definitely needs fixing (of course, per Turn movement works well for characters too...).

 

[*]Vehicle DEX. In my opinion, only the size of the vehicle, the velocity at which it is travelling (in relation to the velocity at which the attacker is travelling), and the pilot's skill at maneuvering (combined with just how maneuverable the vehicle can be) should determine how hard a vehicle is to hit.

 

"Combined with just how maneuverable the vehicle can be" seems like the operative phrase there, and a very good justification for vehicle DEX as currently written (i.e., the lower of the vehicle's and driver's DEX scores is used).

 

[*]Turn Modes. According to the rules, a vehicle's Turn Mode is: Current Turn Mode = Distance Traveled This Phase/ 5. That means that every vehicle actually turns at the same rate, because all a Turn Mode tells you is how many Inches you have to travel before you can turn 1 hex side. Some Skill Levels can allow a PILOT to turn faster than that, and there is a -1/4 Limitation that means a vehicle can turn only 2 sides in a given phase, maximum, but Turn Modes are still, IMO, broken.

 

Amen to that -- I think Turn modes in general need revising. Whatever gets done to vehicles should be applicable to characters.

 

I think the reason that Turn Modes are important is simple -- the whole feel of most vehicles differs from that of people because of Turn Mode. A car moves a whole lot faster than a person, but turns a whole lot crummier.

 

Best of luck on your new thread.

[gojira]

Re: BL's Vehicle Movement Streamlining Thread

 

Though I think I would _most definately_ go for increasing levels of granularity within the rules. This would not only retain a universal system' date=' but would work well with the theme of other 'optional rules' such as hit location, etc. Use it if you want, but the system itelf remains the same from genre to genre and level to level.[/quote']

 

I think this is actually what I meant. Not change the rules completely, but have increased detail / additional rules for more complex or more accurate simulations.

 

BTW, I'd love to see some pictures of your cars. Do you think they'd make good "examples" for this thread?

[Duke Bushido]

Re: BL's Vehicle Movement Streamlining Thread

 

BTW' date=' I'd love to see some pictures of your cars. Do you think they'd make good "examples" for this thread? [/quote']

 

Bikes.

 

I can help you with my wife's bike (the Vulcan), and to a lesser extent my daily driver (the Valkyrie). The Eliminator is currently dissassmbled and crated waiting to be shipped upcountry to the new place (or possibly sold; I've had two good offers on it, and my spine being what it is, I can't race it anymore).

 

If I can catch my youngest brother (who currently has the Gixxer while he rebuilds his engine) I can try to get a snap or two of it. But it's pretty much a stock '03 GSXR1000; Suzuki's website will no doubt have pictures. Just use your imagination to add a few scratches it earned while teaching my littlest brother a lesson about the difference between machine and skill.

 

Hit my name at the top of the post and hit the link to a website one of my brothers put up for me detailing a modification I did to my wife's bike. I'm afraid it's unfinished, as I lost the pictures before I could mail the rest to him (I don't have any way to get pics online, I'm afraid). There's a few shots of her bike, one or two that have my bike in the background, and one really good shot that explained the accuracy of the 'Bushi dude' comment in the anagram thread.

 

But I'm afraid that's all I can really do for pics.

 

Enjoy.

 

As far as examples, well I think any vehicles would make good examples. Ultimately, I think the essence of this thread is that the current rules do / don't model vechiles accurately. You could prove / disprove that with 'bout anything, I would think.

 

 

Duke

[gojira]

Re: BL's Vehicle Movement Streamlining Thread

 

Bikes, huh? Shows what I know about racing things with motors.

 

And, "example" I ment excuse to post some pics.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: BL's Vehicle Movement Streamlining Thread

 

What specifically do you not like about vehicle DEX? It seems a fair representation of a vehicle's over-all handling. For example' date=' my wife's Vulcan is significantly more nimble than my Valkyrie, but _way_ less maneuverable than my Gixxer. And all of them will out-maneuver my Eliminator-- it's been chopped and modded for drag racing; it almost doesn't steer at all.[/quote']

 

Because a vehicle will retain this DEX even when it is sitting still, in theory, at least. All a vehicle does is sit there, until someone actually gets on the bike and begins piloting. The best thing to do with vehicles, I think -- if you want to be realistic -- is assign them a "default" DEX of 0, adjust that default according to the vehicle's size, and then, using a table which I KNOW is in 5ER, determine the rest of the vehicle's DCV according to how fast it is moving (as you know, hitting very fast objects, even big ones, is somewhat difficult).

 

Now, THAT SAID AND DONE, you might think, "Well, but the DEX indicates and limits how well the pilot can defensively maneuver the vehicle." You're right, as long as vehicle DEX only LIMITS the pilot's defensive maneuvering capabilities, it makes sense.

 

So vehicle DEX does kind of make sense, and of course a vehicle's size bonus or penalty already is on its write-up... yeah, actually the system works rather well. But, I believe velocity in Inches/ Turn should CERTAINLY also add to a vehicle's DCV. It's the best protection in many cases.

 

Hmmm. Perhaps that aspect isn't broken after all.

 

Again' date=' it would really help to know exaclty why you think they're broken; some suggestions on 'fixes' or even goals you're shooting for would be a big help.[/quote']

 

I will be posting my thoughts in the future.

 

Going from what you've posted' date=' I don't see how you arrive at the idea that all vehicles turn the same. Obviously, a vehicle going slower can turn more frequently, which I don't think is unrealistic, really.[/quote']

 

Not really -- look at the ARC of the turn, not just the turn itself. Every vehicle, under the Turn Mode rules, turns in DIRECT proportion to its speed. So yes, a much faster vehicle will have a Turn Mode of say, 5, while a slower one will have a Turn Mode of 1 -- but the shape and sharpness of their turns, in proportion to their speed, will be close to identical (the rounding of odd numbers prevents that, but that's a roleplaying quirk; we can't use TOTALLY realistic physics.) As you know, some vehicles can turn on a dime.

 

HOWEVER. A vehicle with a higher SPD effectively has a greater possible Turn Mode than one with a lower SPD. Also, I am thinking of actually integrating Skill Levels (the ones that allow you to improve your turn mode) into the vehicle ITSELF in some cases (i.e., the vehicle automatically grants the ability to the pilot).

 

You wrote a bunch more stuff, but I'm kinda tired, so I'm signing off for now....

[Duke Bushido]

Re: BL's Vehicle Movement Streamlining Thread

 

Because a vehicle will retain this DEX even when it is sitting still, in theory, at least. All a vehicle does is sit there, until someone actually gets on the bike and begins piloting. The best thing to do with vehicles, I think -- if you want to be realistic -- is assign them a "default" DEX of 0, adjust that default according to the vehicle's size, and then, using a table which I KNOW is in 5ER, determine the rest of the vehicle's DCV according to how fast it is moving (as you know, hitting very fast objects, even big ones, is somewhat difficult).

 

Now, THAT SAID AND DONE, you might think, "Well, but the DEX indicates and limits how well the pilot can defensively maneuver the vehicle." You're right, as long as vehicle DEX only LIMITS the pilot's defensive maneuvering capabilities, it makes sense.

 

{SNIP}

 

You wrote a bunch more stuff, but I'm kinda tired, so I'm signing off for now....

 

 

heh heh heh heh

 

I couldn't help myself; you've got an interesting idea here!

 

But based entirely on your response, and that of many others on this thread, and the thread that inspired your own, I am going to withdraw from this conversation until I can get my hands on a copy of 5E (mine's packed up) to double-check a fw things. Having just assumed that the vehicle rules remained relatively unchanged, and having been happy with the rules we were using, none of us bothered looking at them in 5E very closely (except with regard to dealing and taking damage of course, because we've always had issues with that).

 

But even at that, I get the feeling that over the years-- or possibly even from the beginning!-- we've been using the vehicle rules incorrectly. I say this mostly because I can't recall a single instance of having encountered a lot of what you -- and others on this thread-- are complaining of. That leads to the inescapable conclusion that we are already well out from book legal.

 

So I'll have to pull out until I can read 5E's version of vehicle rules and compare them to the way we handle vehicles. On the plus side, we have way less complaints; that suggests that we've got some potential fixes right here on our table, I think....

 

In the meantime, I'll be over hear, reading quietly....

[zornwil]

Re: BL's Vehicle Movement Streamlining Thread

 

Well, I don't have a huge issue with the way the rules are now. If fact, the only vehicle book I have is Champions II, and I don't see any big differences between that and the current rules. (I gotta get the new rules and read 'em, though.)

 

Most of your points above are just a simplification for gameplay. People don't move when running only on phases 1, 4, 8 and 12 either, but no one is posting huge diatribes against that convention. It's just a way of representing that some heroes are more powerful and "quicker" than others.

 

Having vehicles work the same way is just an extension of that convention. Yes, Heroes *are* supposed to drive faster and be better than villians, and the SPD convention for vehicles represents this fairly well. More complicated systems might model reality better, but they're *more complicated* and that's not always a good thing.

 

I could see changing the rules for certain genres. For example, in a Pulp Hero 1920's gangsters game, where car chases are a big part of the campaign, slightly more detailed rules might be a good idea. But vehicles are rarely a big part of most games, witch tend to center on people, not crews, and I think that simple rules are best for the overwhelming majority of players.

 

 

I think what I'd like to see is vehicle rules discussed per genre, and what the requirements of each genre are for *player enjoyment*. That's the key. If the players aren't having fun, what's the point?

 

Lets see, genres, as I see them:

 

Super Hero: X-Mex--the Blackbird is mostly just a SFX to get players from point A to point B. Little combat or interaction occurs when the team is in the Blackbird, mostly it's one piloting roll to avoid crashing, then everyone is outside and fighting on their own.

 

Pulp Hero: Slolar Smith-- not very realistic, but a lot more interaction occurs when the players are flying around and having combat in their space ship. Players should have an interesting board game type of ship combat to keep them happy.

 

(Note: this could be trouble though. Remember deckers from Shadowrun? While the decker was off in his virtual world fighting black ice and what-not, the other players often had little to do. Most GMs 'round here skipped decking altogether. This could also apply to players with no ship skills during ship sequences. Big red flag here in my opinion.)

 

Pulp Hero: 1920s--this could be much more realistic. Cars and gang-land running car fights should occur somewhat realisticly, or players may be offended. Everyone knows how a car works, so there's a lot to get right here. OTOH, most players will probably be between SPD 3 and 4, and have NCM limits for DEX, so not a lot of variation will occur here either.

 

 

I could come up with more (Fantasy / Historical boat travel, Napoleonic area horseback, etc. etc.) but I think this covers the basics. There are three ways in which all vehicles are used: just travel SFX, not realistic but important, and important and realistic.

 

My three bucks.

I think the rules are pretty different. There's nothing for basic characteristics in the current rules for acceleration or turn or any of that, they are all treated like regular power subjects in the rules, whereas in the Champions II supplement (we're not talking the 2nd Edition Rules, we're talking Champions II, those are different things, perhaps that's the cause of the confusion) vehicles are by default treated with more granularity. I also suggested the Champions II rules as a starting point when this came up elsewhere.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: BL's Vehicle Movement Streamlining Thread

 

I also suggested the Champions II rules as a starting point when this came up elsewhere.

 

Funny that you and Fox1 should both mention Champs 2. I was just reading that earlier, and it seems that the bulk of what we do for vehicle rules is pretty much straight out of that. The bulk of what we are not completely happy with is amalgam stuff culled from BBB at the request of players more familiar with 4E.

 

Hmmm....

 

a trend. Perhaps all the vehicle rules need are a mega-scale step backwards....

[Duke Bushido]

Re: BL's Vehicle Movement Streamlining Thread

 

Amost forgot--

though I have to admit that I like the idea of vehicle DEX as a 'limit' to the capabilities of the vehicle in question.

 

Now. Anybody got a copy of Robot Warriors for sale? . I've only got Robot Gladiators, and there's not a lot in there relevant to movement.....

[prestidigitator]

Re: BL's Vehicle Movement Streamlining Thread

 

Off the top of my head' date=' there are several issues concerning vehicle movement which I feel ought to be addressed. Note that other persons have already made suggestions concerning some of these issues in the "Vehicle DEX" thread.[/quote']

I'm sorry. I wouldn't say anything at all if it sounded like you really didn't like the vehicle rules as they are, but from what I see the problems you have with them are due to misunderstandings about how they actually work:

 

Maximum possible Movement in Inches/ Turn is partially dependent upon character SPD. (Thus, a character with a higher SPD may be able to achieve a greater "top speed" -- in an identical vehicle -- than a character with a slower SPD.)

While the Speed at which the vehicle may be operated in combat is normally limited by the pilot's Speed, the pilot may choose to operate the vehicle at a higher Speed than his own (provided it does not exceed the Speed of the vehicle itself). The major limitations imposed are that any Phase the vehicle has in which the character cannot normally act (as in, does not have a Phase or cannot Delay either his or the vehicle's Phase to act at the same time), the pilot cannot adjust the vehicle's course and is considered to be moving Non-Combat even at Combat Velocities. So actually any character can pilot a vehicle at its, "top speed;" the difference is that low-Speed characters may not be able to maneuver as effectively at that speed.

 

Although characters are normally considered to be acting at Speed 2 when out of combat, and there is a clause that only those with Combat Piloting/Driving can operate the vehicle at higher Speed than their own, I would still allow any character to do this in some out-of-combat circumstances (racing, for example). After all, a TF is supposed to give you basic Familiarity (8-) in this sort of situation.

 

There. Top speed is no longer an issue with the standard movement rules.

 

Vehicle DEX. In my opinion, only the size of the vehicle, the velocity at which it is travelling (in relation to the velocity at which the attacker is travelling), and the pilot's skill at maneuvering (combined with just how maneuverable the vehicle can be) should determine how hard a vehicle is to hit.

Emphasis mine. The vehicle's Dex is simply an upper limit on the amount of Dex the pilot can use when maneuvering or attacking with it. No more needs be said.

 

There. Vehicle Dex is no longer an issue (as you describe the problem) with the standard movement rules.

 

Turn Modes. According to the rules, a vehicle's Turn Mode is: Current Turn Mode = Distance Traveled This Phase/ 5. That means that every vehicle actually turns at the same rate, because all a Turn Mode tells you is how many Inches you have to travel before you can turn 1 hex side. Some Skill Levels can allow a PILOT to turn faster than that, and there is a -1/4 Limitation that means a vehicle can turn only 2 sides in a given phase, maximum, but Turn Modes are still, IMO, broken.

...

Thirdly, Turn Modes need to be fixed. A skateboard travelling at 20 mph can be turned 720 degrees or more in a split second by a skilled pilot, while a supertanker moving at 60 knots (nautical miles per hour) may take minutes to turn all the way around. This crucial granularity is utterly impossible to simulate using the current Turn Mode rules.

I think the problem you are having here is partially due to vehicles and characters being able to move fewer hexes than their current velocity indicates. For example, I can be moving at 40" Non-Combat Velocity, but only actually move 20 hexes on the board for a Phase in order to make my marvelously effective 0 OCV attack. This is a problem with movement in general, not with vehicles particularly. If this issue weren't present, a skateboard could generally turn with the same turning radius as a supertanker if they were both moving with a speed equal to 20 mph; this is actually incredibly realistic from a physics perspective, although mechanical properties of a vehicle might impose a minimum turning radius based on its size (see my link below).

 

The other place maybe you are having an issue is with the time it takes a vehicle to turn. In part the timing of this is abstracted by the system as all actions and movement are, but it is also handled in part by the Limitation (forget its precise name at the moment) that reduces the number of turns that can be made each Phase (so it takes multiple Phases to turn around completely). If that Limitation were perhaps given more granularity this would probably suit your needs. Turn Modes should not be confused with turn rate, however. Turn Modes actually give a reasonable approximation to turning radius (not time), which is in reality highly dependent upon velocity in any medium.

 

Again this is not a vehicle specific issue (except that characters for some reason never have a default Turn Mode on Running or Swimming ). It is an issue with the movement rules in general.

 

I have proposed changing Turn Modes as a whole before to be more physically realistic. See my Alternate Turn Modes thread.

[Talon]

Re: BL's Vehicle Movement Streamlining Thread

 

that leads into what i was going to ask... how much different are the Champions II rules from what was presented in Robot Warriors? I have the latter and not the former...

 

Based on a quick glance at Robot Warriors (own it, never read it all), it is closer to Champions 3rd-5th Edition than to the Champions II vehicle movement rules. One of the chief traits of the Champions II rules is that turn mode was proportional to the square of the vehicle's velocity (which, as I understand it, is closer to most real world vehicles).

 

An easy first step to make turn modes more realistic is to replace the "divide movement by 5" rule with a number based on SPD. I would probably use 10 / SPD (which makes SPD 2 work as per the current rules, and makes higher SPDs less maneuverable):

SPD   Divisor (precise number in parentheses)
1    10
2    5
3    3 (3 1/3)
4    2 (2.5)
5    2
6    2 (1 2/3)
7    1 (1 3/7)
8    1 (1.25)
9    1 (1 1/9)
10    1
11    1 (10/11)
12    1 (5/6)

 

If you divide velocity per Phase by this number, you will have a consistent (except for rounding issues) turn mode regardless of SPD -- higher SPD characters and vehicles are not automatically more maneuverable.

 

If you want more realistic turn modes, compare current velocity per Phase to a divisor which needs to be proportional to SPD squared (for example, 3 * 12 ^ 2/ SPD ^ 2):

SPD   Divisor (precise number in parentheses)
1    432
2    108
3    48
4    27
5    17 (17.28)
6    12
7    9 (8.82)
8    7 (6.75)
9    5 (5.33)

10    4 (4.32)
11    4 (3.57)
12    3

 

If you divide current velocity per Phase *squared* by this number, you will get turn modes fairly close to Champions II turn modes, and probably closer to real-life performance numbers than the 5ER rules. If I were re-doing vehicle turn modes, this would be my starting point.

[prestidigitator]

Re: BL's Vehicle Movement Streamlining Thread

 

Based on a quick glance at Robot Warriors (own it, never read it all), it is closer to Champions 3rd-5th Edition than to the Champions II vehicle movement rules. One of the chief traits of the Champions II rules is that turn mode was proportional to the square of the vehicle's velocity (which, as I understand it, is closer to most real world vehicles).

...

If you divide current velocity per Phase *squared* by this number, you will get turn modes fairly close to Champions II turn modes, and probably closer to real-life performance numbers than the 5ER rules. If I were re-doing vehicle turn modes, this would be my starting point.

This is exactly the relationship I proposed in the thread I referenced above (EDIT: very bottom of my last post). However, I advocate using it for all movement, not just vehicle movement. There is no inherent difference between a character and a vehicle that should cause a difference in the mechanics.

 

A man who could run at 50m/s (~110mph) would still be limited to turning by applying no more than, "one G," of acceleration through the force of friction, so he is still not going to be able to turn with a smaller radius (conveniently equal to Turn Mode since we are using 60-degree turns) than about 250m. (I would use this as a baseline, by the way; a character with extra Running defined as jet boosters could easily use Movement Skill Levels to decrease the Turn Mode, and a sluggish vehicle with bad traction could easily buy a Limitation). Flight is normally going to have pretty close to the same restriction.

 

EDIT: I also think suitable conditions--such as a banked path--should either increase or decrease the Turn Mode (radius of curvature). This could likely be applied through GM judgement as well as any system mechanics could handle it, though we could easily come up with a table or some such thing as a guideline.

[zornwil]

Re: BL's Vehicle Movement Streamlining Thread

 

With all due respect, I think doing this for characters introduces an unneeded complexity and ignores/over-simplifies the variability of END-based movement as well as may not really be desirable at all for some genres (higher-powered fantasy, supers, the like) and doesn't well-replicate (to me) heroic action. Perhaps suitable for a more detailed, "realistic" attempt but only rarely do I think it would rise to the occasion of being suitable to the extent it's worth the trade-off in flexibility and ease.

 

PS - of course the standard caveat "if it works in your game" and such applies...

[prestidigitator]

Re: BL's Vehicle Movement Streamlining Thread

 

With all due respect, I think doing this for characters introduces an unneeded complexity and ignores/over-simplifies the variability of END-based movement as well as may not really be desirable at all for some genres (higher-powered fantasy, supers, the like) and doesn't well-replicate (to me) heroic action. Perhaps suitable for a more detailed, "realistic" attempt but only rarely do I think it would rise to the occasion of being suitable to the extent it's worth the trade-off in flexibility and ease.

 

PS - of course the standard caveat "if it works in your game" and such applies...

Hrm. How many heroic characters do you have moving above 20" without a vehicle? Heh.

[zornwil]

Re: BL's Vehicle Movement Streamlining Thread

 

Hrm. How many heroic characters do you have moving above 20" without a vehicle? Heh.

I know that was humorous but it raises a good point I should address. I think, generally, movement just isn't abused by PCs even in the realistic sense, in that people tend to not run around that much during combat.

 

To put into perspective, the 1500m sprint record is 3:32.07 at least according to http://www.hickoksports.com/history/oltfrec.shtml. That's 17 2/3 turns for the 1,500 meters. That's 170m per turn, rounding down, so just under 43" per turn, so SPD 4 (to grant a high value for the record-holder) would be just almost 11" per action, but SPD 3 would be over 14". Yes, a world record, but for heroic action and figuring how rarely characters will really run flat-out for Turns on end, seems okay.

 

Consider the sprint record for 19.32 seconds is 200m, so that's 1.61 Turns, let's say SPD 3 so 5 actions for simplicity, that's right at 20" per action.

 

So I think it's reasonable for the context.

[Talon]

Re: BL's Vehicle Movement Streamlining Thread

 

I also have been thinking that altering the turn mode factor based on SPD is a bit much -- but I think that using a more champs II like turn mode for vehicles, even if it's not based on SPD, makes a lot of sense. It was fun to do all the math though.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: BL's Vehicle Movement Streamlining Thread

 

Consider the sprint record for 19.32 seconds is 200m, so that's 1.61 Turns, let's say SPD 3 so 5 actions for simplicity, that's right at 20" per action.

 

So I think it's reasonable for the context.

 

But in a car, I can do 20" for hours on end.....

[prestidigitator]

Re: BL's Vehicle Movement Streamlining Thread

 

I know that was humorous but it raises a good point I should address. I think, generally, movement just isn't abused by PCs even in the realistic sense, in that people tend to not run around that much during combat.

 

To put into perspective, the 1500m sprint record is 3:32.07 at least according to http://www.hickoksports.com/history/oltfrec.shtml. That's 17 2/3 turns for the 1,500 meters. That's 170m per turn, rounding down, so just under 43" per turn, so SPD 4 (to grant a high value for the record-holder) would be just almost 11" per action, but SPD 3 would be over 14". Yes, a world record, but for heroic action and figuring how rarely characters will really run flat-out for Turns on end, seems okay.

 

Consider the sprint record for 19.32 seconds is 200m, so that's 1.61 Turns, let's say SPD 3 so 5 actions for simplicity, that's right at 20" per action.

 

So I think it's reasonable for the context.

Ah, but no faster. I'm not saying it isn't going to happen for heroic games, but it will be pretty rare, and then they are booking at full NonCom. Would you really feel bad about applying a Turn Mode in that case? I wouldn't. Especially as it could be as simple as...10" doubled gives a Turn Mode of 2"x4=8" and can be halved for each Movement Skill Level.

[prestidigitator]

Re: BL's Vehicle Movement Streamlining Thread

 

But in a car' date=' I can do 20" for hours on end..... [/quote']

Sure. But I was arguing about applying a Turn Mode to characters as well as vehicles. Vehicles already have a Turn Mode.

[prestidigitator]

Re: BL's Vehicle Movement Streamlining Thread

 

I also have been thinking that altering the turn mode factor based on SPD is a bit much -- but I think that using a more champs II like turn mode for vehicles' date=' even if it's not based on SPD, makes a lot of sense. It was fun to do all the math though. [/quote']

Yeah. I just assumed an, "average," Speed myself, which I think is fine. I propose basing it on velocity (as in hexes per Phase, but the velocity of the character, not the actual distance moved). For those who wanted more exactness you could base it on actual time-based velocity (velocity*Speed) like Velocity Factor is, but I don't see an incredible need.