Aid...still broken?

[Zed-F]

Re: Aid...still broken?

 

If you really want END, just buy an END reserve. END is not usually a big problem for a well-designed character in the first place, unless END is deliberately intended to be a problem (e.g. as a point of character balance.)

[Drachasor]

Re: Aid...still broken?

 

If you really want END' date=' just buy an END reserve. END is not usually a big problem for a well-designed character in the first place, unless END is deliberately intended to be a problem (e.g. as a point of character balance.)[/quote']

 

If I may ask, how long do combats typically last? Perhaps and End Reserve is a better way.

 

This all started, btw, because, as I said in the first post, I conceived my character as a formerly human, now 5 dimensional (space, time, a 4th spatial dimension) being. That's why he has multiform (somewhat like the Meissner effect in physics only some parts of him can "lock" in place in normal reality). I wanted a way to go along with him tapping into that other part of him for a power boost.

 

Unfortunately Aid isn't good most of the time since usually it is too expensive. If you spend a lot of points on it then it can become ludicrously powerful, but it is hard to spend a small number of points (say around 30) and have a potent effect that you can only do a few times a day (or perhaps just once). Oddly, I can't seem to find a middle ground with aid (charges doesn't seem to work too well even if I take out continuous). I was a bit startled by how potent it could be if you spent a lot of points on it (though a lot of active points as people pointed out--you can still get an insane deal on my original example if you take out the bad limitations and find one or two small replacements--a -.25 beyond the self only and one at a time would still cost just 140 points and it covers all your attribute expenditures). That's admittedly an insane deal and I've no problem with any rational gm banning it--though 3d6 End Continuously or 3d6 Stun (or both if you can have 75 active points) does seem a bit too potent for the price to me. Basically it means you can make your character use up a lot more End each turn, which I think is part of the power balance normally.

 

Or am I just mistaken on that? I admit I do have no practical experience with the game so far (I never played a previous edition either, but I did notice that apparently Aid was half the price in 4th ed).

 

-Drachasor

[Drachasor]

Re: Aid...still broken?

 

To continue my rambling:

 

End Reserve 30 pts:

10->Reserve for a Reserve of 100 pts

20->Rec for a Recovery of 20 pts

 

Beats Aid End Continuously when (assuming you are using pretty much all your end in the battle--not sure how accurate that is)...

1) Character is knocked out or powers would otherwise be turned off

2) Character is Speed 1 (Speed 2 roughly matches), but such characters have other problems.

3) Short battles(?): Speed less than 10 for one turn or less than 6 for two turns; 5 for three turns; 4 for four turns; evens at about speed 4 on five turns; less than speed 4 on a battle lasting six turns; at 10 turns Aid End Cont. method starts beating the above Reserve on speed 3 characters--(I don't know how long battles last though). I think most characters have between 4 and 6 speed though.

(At speed 5, btw, the Aid method has provided 300 End, assuming average rolls and that you use the Aid-granted End each phase, by the end of the 6th turn.--though I just realized my calculations including the dropping of 5 points at the end of each Turn, which wouldn't happen if you kept using all the bonus points--though I suppose a GM could rule that if you use all the points the effect ends, though I think that seem contrary to the rules, but they aren't explicit).

 

Though, the Continuous Aid method has advantages in that it can provide a bit of end each phase whereas you have to wait for a recovery on a Reserve.

 

Hmm.

 

-Drachasor

[Zed-F]

Re: Aid...still broken?

 

The thing with an END reserve is that buying END itself is cheap, it's only buying REC that's relatively expensive. I'd rather have a reserve of 100 END and 5 REC, and save 15 points to spend elsewhere. Or if I really want a lot of END, 250 END and 5 REC. Plus, you can buy limited REC for your reserve if you want. Just don't then go and take a whole whack of powers that cost extra END, that's just cheesy. One or two is fine, but not as a major theme.

 

As for whether that's enough, it depends on what you're trying to do. Generally speaking, I usually try to keep powers that I expect to use all the time like main defenses and movement powers at reduced or 0 END cost, since I don't want to be already spent before the battle is even joined. On the other hand, I don't always worry as much about attack powers, other than perhaps having one or two low-END attack options. Unless you're fighting a really long battle, you usually don't need more than 3 turns or so worth of END, including post-12 recoveries, and often less. Many battles last a turn or less. And almost always, once the battle is over, you'll have ample time to recover your END before the next battle begins.

 

The key is making a distinction between powers you'll use constantly, and those you'll only use during combat. Paying close attention to END usage is more important for the former than for the latter.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Aid...still broken?

 

In general the more you buy up the Aids Variable Effect and Maximum Effect, the more cost effective it becomes. If you let it grow to an absurd level it certainly will become unbalanced, particularly if a huge number of Characteristics and/or Powers are included in one set of Variable Effects. This can be mitigated by looking at the set from a SFX/common sense perspective and basing things more on concept than on metagaming principles such as point-effectiveness. I believe if this is done well you won't see such utterly gross constructs, but YMMV.

 

Other things to consider for comparison:

1.) You could place +40 Active Points to each of three Powers in an Elemental Control for 80 points (with absolutely no Limitations). With a similar -2 in Limitations this could increase to at least 7 different Powers (more, I believe, but I can't remember the exact EC mechanics ATM).

 

 

2.) You could buy separate 7d6 Aids for 3 different Powers in a Multipower for 91 points (with absolutely no Limitations). With -2 in common Limitations this could go to Aids for 77 different Powers!

 

Even if we buy the Fade Rate down to 5AP/6 hours (+1 Advantage), -2 in common Limitations would bring us to 9 Aids of 7d6 to different Powers for 91 points in a MP!

[Lanith]

Re: Aid...still broken?

 

EDITED TO SAVE SPACE:

Transdimensional Influx:

Aid 7d6 (70)

Advatnages (+3.5)

Continuous +1

Variable Effect +2 (all characteristics simultaneously)

Variable Effect +.5 (and all gravity powers simultaneously)

AP: 315

Limitations (-2.5):

Self Only -.5

One Use at a Time -.5

Cannot be Pushed: -.25

Extra Phase to Activate: -.5

Concentration 0DCV, unaware of surroundings to activate: -.75

 

RP: 90

EDITED FOR SPACE

-Drachasor

OK, I'm not going to talk one way or the other regarding this power. I have a question and will pose it to all at hand.

This power is purchased "Continuous" +1, but the disadvantage "Concentration 0DCV" -.75 seems to completely destroy this power. Is this Concentration only to activate? (I don't have my books or I'd look) Or will the character stand there, phase after phase concentrating himself into oblivion?

 

Apologies in advance for the silly question.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Aid...still broken?

 

OK, I'm not going to talk one way or the other regarding this power. I have a question and will pose it to all at hand.

This power is purchased "Continuous" +1, but the disadvantage "Concentration 0DCV" -.75 seems to completely destroy this power. Is this Concentration only to activate?

Yes. Otherwise it would be worth double that.

[Lanith]

Re: Aid...still broken?

 

Thanks for the quick response.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Aid...still broken?

 

The description of Continuous under Aid clearly states that when it hits the max it naturally doesn't add more points. Once it degrades though (5 points usually) on your next phase it kicks in again and aid points.

 

OK, now I have my books. As I read it:

 

- Continuous powers do not require any actions after the first (this is clear)

 

- The Continuouis Aid does not shut off on eaching max, it just won't add any more until the fade rate kicks in

 

Lost points are first taken from the boosted pools. So if you have 18 extra End from Aid' date=' and spend 10 End in a phase, then the next phase you roll your aid and aid that to your boosted amount, since that 10 end came from the boosted part, not your normal amount. It is true, however, that if you spent 30 End, and then had 12+ End from Aid on your next recovery phase, then you'd gain no End during your recovery (since if your Current End + Aid End >= Max Normal End you recover nothing). That seems like a relatively small problem when you are gaining 3d6 End every phase.[/quote']

 

You absolutely do not gain END or STUn in every phase. Aid does not act as Recovery. It enhances your STUN stat and your END stat, which recovers normally when used. To read from the Book:

 

Similarly, if a character has an expendable Characteristic or Power boosted to the maximum effect possible using an Adjustment Power, and he then uses up or removes some of what he gained, the Adjustment Power cannot be applied again until the Adjustment Power would fade naturally."

 

The Example discusses absorptopn to STUN, however Aid applies similarly.

 

Assume the character has a 5 SPD. In Phase 12, combat starts. he is already fully augmented from his usual 38 STUN to 80 STUN. In Phase 12, he is hit and loses 15 STUN (now has 65).

 

PS 12: Still over his base 38 STUN, he gets no recovery. He does lose 5 due to the Fade rate, and is at 60 Stun.

 

Ph 2: he is hit for 10 STUN (now at 50).

 

Ph 3: His Continuous Aid activates. Roll 7d6, but the roll makes no difference - he can only add the 5 that has faded. 55 STUN. His Aid has no effect for the rest of the turn.

 

Ph 5 to 12 - various attacks have reduced him to 10 STUN

 

PS 12 - another 5 fades, to 5 STUN. He can recover up to hos base 38 STUN.

 

Ph 3: His Continuous Aid activates. Roll 7d6, but the roll makes no difference - he can only add the 5 that has faded. 10 STUN. His Aid has no effect for the rest of the turn.

 

Continuous END Aid does not create "END Regeneration".

[Fenixcrest]

Re: Aid...still broken?

 

Continuous END Aid does not create "END Regeneration".

 

I think it would create a "buffer" of END, that would be spent before his base END, though, right? It works out to be a similar effect. Anyway, I wouldn't allow a 315 point power in Player Character.

[Drachasor]

Re: Aid...still broken?

 

Ahh, I missed that nuance Hugh, thanks. He started the first full turn 5 short of full Stun boost, so he can only recover that 5 for that turn. On the turn after that he can recover more. So if he is only taking 30-some Stun damage a turn, then he will take no real damage overall. If he takes 42+ damage each turn then it will start to wear down his real Stun (though that he will start recovering).

 

However, if you lose all of your boost in a turn, then on the next turn you can gain the full boost (42 for 7d6) back. Since the "maximum effect" rule only applies for one turn. You could break it down by phase if desired, I suppose.

 

Basically, as I read it: If the maximum effect of your Aid is M and you begin a turn with a boost of X, then the most of a expendable characteristic you can gain over the course of the turn is M-X. In the example you gave for the first turn it is 5 (42-37). For the second turn in your example though he can boost himself up to 42 Stun again since he began the turn with a boost of 0.

 

That means that if you use up all of your expendable characteristic each turn then you can gain it all back the next turn. So for Aid to End 3d6 continuous, you can gain an extra 18 End each turn but never any more.

 

In that case it seems like a properly made Endurance Reserve is far superior to a Continuous Aid End. For 30 CP the Reserve can have 18 Recovery (effectively just like the Aid) and a maximum of 120 End. You could also go with 20 Rec and 100 End which is superior in every way. Especially since it recovers even when you are unconcious and it also powers abilities when you normally couldn't.

 

3d6 End Aid, Continous is just like an extra 18 Recovery with an 18 End Container (at best). The one single advantage it has is that you can use your normal powers with that.

 

Hmm, interesting. It seems Aid for Endurance isn't worth it at least. I don't think the Adder that increases the maximum effect by 2 for every character point you spend changes that. Maybe it is more worth it for Stun though, as there's no "Stun Reserve" power, though I suspect more traditional methods are best (defenses, recovery, stun increases).

 

Interesting. It seems Aid might really only be worth it if you have a lot of allowed AP for powers, and then it can quickly become overpowered.

 

-Drachasor

 

PS. Thank your for your persistance and for spotting the errors I made, comrades (especially Hugh Neilson).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Aid...still broken?

 

Let us assume for a minute that the active points of your campaign do not reach 315 per power. Let us reduce the aid to 2 1/2d6, so you have 15 (we'll call it 10) added character points, which works out at about 121 active points - high, but more reasonable. Let's lose all the limitations. Let's assume you have gravity powers.

 

That let's you add a constant 10 points (well, 15 most of the time except immediately following PS12) to all characteristics and gravity powers for yourself any you mates. That's worth 80 points for your primary characteristics and another 60 for your secondary ones, plus 10 x (number of gravity powers) plus 140 x (number of mates) in character points.

 

Bargain.

 

The question should be:-

 

Aid: still abuseable?

 

The answer, for Aid and any other power is "Yes, of course".

 

Frankly whenever I see more than about +1 1/2 of advantages, alarm bells start going off.

 

I don't think aid is broken, but that doesn't mean to say I don't think you can break it if you try hard enough.

 

Of course, by my argument, I'd look at any adjustment power that had : all simultanously (+2) in it. And quite right. If anything about Aid is broken that advantage is.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Aid...still broken?

 

I think it would create a "buffer" of END' date=' that would be spent before his base END, though, right? It works out to be a similar effect. Anyway, I wouldn't allow a 315 point power in Player Character.[/quote']

 

It creates a buffer of END spent before his regular END, absolutely. However, that END cannot be recovered by any means until such time as the END boost would naturally have faded.

 

That means that, if I have an extra 84 END (42 CP x 2) from Aid, and I spend 90 END this turn (man am I tired! ), then on PS 12, I will lose no END (my Aided END was the first to go), and recover 6 END (assuming I have at least 6 REC). In my next phase, I can use Aid again, but the most it can add is 10 END (the 5 CP that "faded" in PS 12).

 

In other words, the Aid is not infinitely refreshed by ongoiung applications of Aid.

 

I'm going to put this one to the Questions board and ensure The Mighty Steve concurs that this is the rule as written.

[Drachasor]

Re: Aid...still broken?

 

The transfer example has someone who has a maximum effect trasnfer of 12. The person drains 10 End from the target on his first phase. It says that later in the round he can only drain 2 more End "because the earlier Transfer remains 'in effect' for 1 Turn for purposes of determining the Transfer's maximum effect".

 

That seems to indicate that the next turn he could boost his aid back up to the full amount (so if he used 10 and it faded 5, he could boost it up 15). Otherwise I guess one should take the "all points fade at the end of the turn" limitation for Aid, and just use up all of the aid bonus every Turn. Seems odd that a limitation would make a power better.

 

-Drachasor

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Aid...still broken?

 

The transfer example has someone who has a maximum effect trasnfer of 12. The person drains 10 End from the target on his first phase. It says that later in the round he can only drain 2 more End "because the earlier Transfer remains 'in effect' for 1 Turn for purposes of determining the Transfer's maximum effect".

 

The Transfer would be subject to the same rule, as it is also an Adjustment power.

 

That seems to indicate that the next turn he could boost his aid back up to the full amount (so if he used 10 and it faded 5' date=' he could boost it up 15). Otherwise I guess one should take the "all points fade at the end of the turn" limitation for Aid, and just use up all of the aid bonus every Turn. Seems odd that a limitation would make a power better.[/quote']

 

As such, I would rule that the points fade at the end of the turn, but can only be reinstated by further applications of Aid to the extent they were not used when they vanished at the end of the turn, or they would have faded out at the normal rate.

 

Although I would also rule that the bonus END (STUN, BOD, whatever) is considered to enhance the maximum, and therefore can be recovered using REC, to the extent it has not yet faded.

[Zed-F]

Re: Aid...still broken?

 

I don't suppose this is a good time to bring up Succor...

[SirViss]

Re: Aid...still broken?

 

Zed-F: If you wanted to have people go "Noooo!" and "Not again!" you should have brought up this thread and this follow-up thread.

 

I'll shut up now.

[Zed-F]

Re: Aid...still broken?

 

Oh gosh. You're right, that's even worse than Succor-sans-houserule.