Alternate Skill System

[schir1964]

Skill

A skill is a specialized area of knowledge/training. The level of specialization for a skill can be specifically or generally defined as needed for the campaign. The skill may be used to attempt tasks that are directly related and tasks that are indirectly related (GM determined).

 

Skill Cost: 1 CP Per +1 Level

 

Skill Roll

Skill Roll: 9 + ((CHAR/5 + SKILL) / (ITD)) + (Modifiers)

 

Innate Task Difficulty (ITD)

Any task can be attempted as needed, but every task is assigned Innate Task Difficulty (ITD) by the GM. This has no effect on other modifiers such as equipment or environmental factors.

 

Difficulty 1: Represents common tasks.

Difficulty 2: Represents average tasks.

Difficulty 3: Represents skilled tasks.

Difficulty 4: Represents expert tasks.

Difficulty 5: Represents genius tasks.

etc...

 

System Use

This system allows the GM to create any skills needed for his game.

Any skill may be used for a task that is indirectly related, however, the further away the task's relationship is from the skill, the greater the ITD is increased also.

Example:

Skill: Lockpicking (Mechanical)

Task 1: 10 Pin Key Lock (IDT=3, Directly Related)

Task 2: 10 Digit Electronic Keycode Lock (IDT=3, Indireclty Related +3: IDT=6)

 

GM Options

1. The effect of Characteristic Bonus (CHAR/5) may be restricted by the GM to a maximum Difficulty. This means that any Task rated beyond this limit will use the formula: 9 + ((SKILL) - (ITD)) + (Modifiers).
   
2. The GM may apply an additional penalty (ITD*2) for any task that the character does not have a net +1 Skill Bonus for the difficulty. Thus, no skill tasks get penalized -2,-4,-8, and so forth. Skill 1 would get a -0,-2,-4,-8, and so forth. Skill 2 would get -0,-0,-2,-4,-8, and so forth.

 

Just thought I would throw this out for discussion. Questions?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Phil]

Re: Alternate Skill System

 

I thought of a system very similar to this, but as soon as I'd written it up I realised to was too complicated. I think yours suffers the same flaw.

 

I'd just be happy with some formal guidelines within the rules that offer suggestions on balance and resolution issues with changing the Char element of skills, and some suggestions on how to reflect difference between overall ability and the expertise suggested by skill levels. I'm happy with GM fiat, but I'd like to think - for those inexperienced GMs out there - that it could at least be partly codified!

[ghost-angel]

Re: Alternate Skill System

 

I have to go with Phil's sentiments here.. it looks like a nice system and would probably be very realistic in use ... but is overly complicated for actual real time play. Especially since the ITD can vary from application to application you're not either writing out a number of different skill rolls for every ITD on your sheet or your recosting it with every use.

 

Much to clunky IMO, unfortunately.

 

The Skill System we have, while not perfect, is very easy to use, easy to understand and mechanically very friendly. I really think that we, as a group at the moment, seem to be overthinking the Skill System into the ground and will do more damage than good.

 

Really - Skill Use, unlike powers, has to come down to the Game being played and an intelligent application of drama, realism and story to the situation.

 

What we could do is, if a skill has a complimentary skill and you know both the complimentary automatically adds +1 and then you can roll to add an additional bonus (or fail miserably and remove your bonus).

 

It's an idea. But the math mess above? Sorry, can't endorse it, even though it looks like a wonderfully done method.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Alternate Skill System

 

I am one of the mad overthinkers, so, well, there you go, but...I DO think we need some changes to the system (as detailed elsewhere, and not to be repeated here).

 

1. Interesting ideas: I have no idea where you keep getting them from. Whether they get a positive response or not, please keep churning them out. We'll never stagnate with you around

 

2. My problem with the divisor is that the single biggest 'hit' is between a common and an average task: it halves the effects of skill. The harder something is the less of a hit you take (proportionally: absolutely it is always getting harder, of course), which seems the wrong way round to me. On the bell curve this could make an enormous difference. With small skill totals there is no difference in practice between increasingly difficult tasks, for example, if you have a skill of 11- from a basic CHAR/5 with no skill levels, there is no difference between an average and an expert task.

 

3. Whilst it is not what anyone could properly call difficult, dividing is probably going to be perceived asmore difficult than adding and subtracting, so that might put a few off.

 

4. I do note that skill sbecome a lot cheaper under this system, which means you can afford to have much higher totals, which mitigates the problem in (2.) to an extent.

 

5. Presumably this system replaces difficulty modifiers for tasks: not all modifiers, like poor conditions or extra time, just the basic 'task difficulty' modifier. In practice this means that the 'hit' you take for trying a harder task will be bigger if you are highly skilled, which again seems wrong. In addition, the maximum 'deduction' for the hardest of tasks, assuming (CHAR/5+SKILL) is divided down to zero can't take the task below the base chance of success: so even the hardest of tasks will succeed on 9-.

 

I may have misinterpretted some of this, but on balance I do not think this will float. keep going though, mate: I know you'll do us proud

[schir1964]

Re: Alternate Skill System

 

I thought of a system very similar to this, but as soon as I'd written it up I realised to was too complicated. I think yours suffers the same flaw.

 

I'd just be happy with some formal guidelines within the rules that offer suggestions on balance and resolution issues with changing the Char element of skills, and some suggestions on how to reflect difference between overall ability and the expertise suggested by skill levels. I'm happy with GM fiat, but I'd like to think - for those inexperienced GMs out there - that it could at least be partly codified!

< he he he >

Actually, this system is no more complicated than the current one. Why? Because every GM is already doing pretty much the same thing whether they realize it or not. This is really just a formalized guideline for the GM to use to determine a base difficulty of the skill, that's all.

 

However, the only two real differences between this system and the current ones are:

• I've added a simple division for the Characteristic Bonus + Skill Bonus which doesn't even involve fractions, since you drop any remainder.
  
• Allows for the breadth application of knowledge outside of it's specific definition, which the current system does not allow.

 

As to some of the perceived flaws...

 

Considering how Advantages and Limitations work in the Hero system, to say that this one is "too" complex is laughable.

 

Also, this system is completely compatible with the current one. You don't like Tasks having a difficulty (they do with the current system but it's just not codified), the GM just defaults everything to the Difficulty 1 and presto, you're essentially playing the current system, since most the currently defined skills can be bulit with this one.

 

So I don't see it as a flaw, but enhanced flexibility for the GM. But to each his own, which is what this system is designed to help support.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Alternate Skill System

 

I have to go with Phil's sentiments here.. it looks like a nice system and would probably be very realistic in use ... but is overly complicated for actual real time play. Especially since the ITD can vary from application to application you're not either writing out a number of different skill rolls for every ITD on your sheet or your recosting it with every use.

 

Much too clunky IMO, unfortunately.

See my post above.

Also a clarification about the ITD: No one is writing anything anywhere, the ITD applies to the Task being attempted, which the GM determines, either with this method here, or with the current system with a +/- modifier from the chart in the book. (So you are doing the work anyway, this just codifies it and gives a slight change to add some flexibility and scale for those who want it.) (8^D)

 

The Skill System we have' date=' while not perfect, is very easy to use, easy to understand and mechanically very friendly. I really think that we, as a group at the moment, seem to be overthinking the Skill System into the ground and will do more damage than good.[/quote']

For you and perhaps your games, but is severly inadequate for handling many Sci-Fi games appropriately. I'd like to see how easy it would be for you to run a "Well World" campaign using the current system. (8^D)

 

Note: Well World novels by Jack L. Chalker

 

Really - Skill Use' date=' unlike powers, has to come down to the Game being played and an intelligent application of drama, realism and story to the situation.[/quote']

Which this simply adds some guidelines for the GM, to use as sees fit, granting him more flexiblity than the current system allows.

 

What we could do is' date=' if a skill has a complimentary skill and you know both the complimentary automatically adds +1 and then you can roll to add an additional bonus (or fail miserably and remove your bonus).[/quote']

And you think my system is complicated? (8^D)

Probably just how you expressed yourself here. (8^D)

 

It's an idea. But the math mess above? Sorry' date=' can't endorse it, even though it looks like a wonderfully done method.[/quote']

Again, see my post above for clarification. It's really not that messy, if it is, then rest of Hero's Math is even more of mess. (8^D)

 

But thank you, I've worked on it for about two weeks now. And I understand if people are wary about it. It is different, but to add the flexibility the current skill system needs, will require some changes.

 

BTW: I'm not asking for any endorsements, but if you think it breaks down in certain areas, please point them out so I can evaluate it for possible change.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Alternate Skill System

 

1. Interesting ideas: I have no idea where you keep getting them from. Whether they get a positive response or not' date=' please keep churning them out. We'll never stagnate with you around [/quote']

Actually, it's Zornwil's fault and the GIR group he created. They keep talking about things that spurs ideas in my head and they won't be denied!!! They must get out!!! (8^D)

 

They've already done it to me again with another method for Characteristic and Skill interaction. I've got to post these new ideas over there to hammer out the details... aaaaaahhhh!!! (8^D)

 

2. My problem with the divisor is that the single biggest 'hit' is between a common and an average task: it halves the effects of skill. The harder something is the less of a hit you take (proportionally: absolutely it is always getting harder' date=' of course), which seems the wrong way round to me.[/quote']

Why you sneaky little... ahem!

 

Yes, I have toyed with the following:

9 + ((CHAR/5 + SKILL) / (2^IDT))

IDT = 0,1,2,3,4,...

 

This creates a divisors: 1,2,4,8,16,...

 

On the bell curve this could make an enormous difference. With small skill totals there is no difference in practice between increasingly difficult tasks' date=' for example, if you have a skill of 11- from a basic CHAR/5 with no skill levels, there is no difference between an average and an expert task.[/quote']

This isn't quite true since fractions are dropped, the eventual bonus from (CHAR/5) is reduced to zero, but I see what mean, from that point on there is no change. Thanks for pointing this out.

 

Oddly enough, my first attempt had two types of rolls: Skilled Rolls, and Non-Skilled Rolls. Non-Skilled rolls got penalties based on the difficulty.

 

Hmmm... let me see...

 

Okay, I've added an additional GM option. But it'll probably be immediately rejected by nearly everyone. (8^D)

 

3. Whilst it is not what anyone could properly call difficult' date=' dividing is probably going to be perceived as[u']more [/u]difficult than adding and subtracting, so that might put a few off.

< he he he >

 

4. I do note that skills become a lot cheaper under this system' date=' which means you can afford to have much higher totals, which mitigates the problem in (2.) to an extent.[/quote']

Yes, which means it's more effective to buy skills up than buy up Characteristics.

 

5. Presumably this system replaces difficulty modifiers for tasks: not all modifiers' date=' like poor conditions or extra time, just the basic 'task difficulty' modifier. In practice this means that the 'hit' you take for trying a harder task will be bigger if you are highly skilled, which again seems wrong. In addition, the maximum 'deduction' for the hardest of tasks, assuming (CHAR/5+SKILL) is divided down to zero can't take the task below the base chance of success: so even the hardest of tasks will succeed on 9-.[/quote']

Okay, this is a very astute and thoughtful response.

 

My addtional GM Option takes care of this, even if it is bit more work on the GM.

 

I may have misinterpretted some of this' date=' but on balance I do not think this will float. keep going though, mate: I know you'll do us proud [/quote']

Thanks, you've pointed out some things I hadn't noticed.

 

I would like to add something about the benefit and idea behind this system.

 

One of the beautiful things about this sytem is it's flexibility.

For example, with this system, one could decide that they are Math Wiz, doesn't matter what kind, they just get it. So they buy "Math" as a skill, this system allows the GM to now simply assign IDTs to the tasks that this Math skill will apply to, on the fly.

 

So we might end up with something like this:

ITD 1: Basic Math/Geometry

ITD 2: Algebra/Trigonometry

ITD 3: Calculus I and II

ITD 4: Calculus III

...

ITD 6: Determining Starship Jump Cooridinates (In My Head)

 

Or perhaps the character has had extensive training in Calculus II, he can buy the Skill Calculus II if he wants and the GM can decide this on the fly:

ITD 1/2: Basic Math/Algebra

ITD 1: Geometry/Trigonometry/Calculus I and II

ITD 2: Calculus III

...

ITD 10: Determining Starship Jump Coordinates (In My Head)

 

Hope this helps explains some of the flexibility of the system.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Black Rose]

Re: Alternate Skill System

 

Do you have some sort of quantifiable way of determining where the ITDs should be in relation to a skill, or is it more of an art at this point? It sounds like this could fix one of the problems I have with my skill system idea; determining where the "difficulty levels" are.

[schir1964]

Re: Alternate Skill System

 

Do you have some sort of quantifiable way of determining where the ITDs should be in relation to a skill' date=' or is it more of an art at this point? It sounds like this could fix one of the problems I have with my skill system idea; determining where the "difficulty levels" are.[/quote']

Well, I'm just going to have come out and say it...

 

You really need to go over to GIR and take a look at what I've got there. I've got a system there similar to this, but I'm not willing to share it with the general public yet. It may address most of the things you are looking for.

 

Determining the Task Difficulty is really something that a GM has to do anyway in any system, whether there is a codified method in the system for doing so or not. This is something I think Hero needs to help GM's to create cetain variations for different types of games. Therefore, what I am proposing is a gudeline with default values that any GM can use, but has clear modifiable components to it in order for the GM to get different results for different games that he might run.

 

I'll discuss it in more detail with you if you want over at GIR.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Alternate Skill System

 

Oh yeah, I also wanted to point out the other benefit of this system. It's open ended, so that if you have a game that is on the Cosmic level playing field, you could have Cosmically Difficult Tasks with the appropriate effect. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[ghost-angel]

Re: Alternate Skill System

 

Ok, I looked at it again .. It looks messy up front, but you're right it is essentially what we're doing now. Assuming the ITD is set to one.

 

It's when it's not that introduces math into the gameplay itself. Or, at least forces you to work out a series of extra formulas before hand. Perhaps I'm just not a seeing it the way you are .. a table of actual breakdowns might helps - assuming all other modifies are 0:

 

DEX 20; 3 Levels; ITD3 = 9 + ((20/5 + 3)/3) + 0 = 11- that right?

versus now:

DEX 20; 3 Levels; -3 Modifier due to difficulty = 9 + 20/5 + 3 - 3 = 13-

 

If I'm reading your fourmula right, which I may not be, it's not the same and does invovle more math in play. Correct any errors of mine - cuz I don't think I'm seeing this as you see it.

 

As for the rest of hero - once you're past character creation the majority of the math goes away. This seems to reappear and get in the way.

[schir1964]

Re: Alternate Skill System

 

It's when it's not that introduces math into the gameplay itself. Or, at least forces you to work out a series of extra formulas before hand. Perhaps I'm just not a seeing it the way you are .. a table of actual breakdowns might helps - assuming all other modifies are 0:

 

DEX 20; 3 Levels; ITD3 = 9 + ((20/5 + 3)/3) + 0 = 11- that right?

versus now:

DEX 20; 3 Levels; -3 Modifier due to difficulty = 9 + 20/5 + 3 - 3 = 13-

 

If I'm reading your fourmula right, which I may not be, it's not the same and does invovle more math in play. Correct any errors of mine - cuz I don't think I'm seeing this as you see it.

 

As for the rest of hero - once you're past character creation the majority of the math goes away. This seems to reappear and get in the way.

Okay, I see where the divide comes. (8^D)

 

If skill modifiers are required for more than 50 percent of the skill rolls in your games, then this system in no more complex, and adds one minor, again minor, calculation to game play.

 

If skill modifiers are required for less than 50 percent of the skill rolls in your games, then this system is no more complex, and adds on major, again major, calculation to game play.

 

So yes, it is more work for the GM, which I so stated in my first response this. As to complexity, let's evaluate both formulas:

 

9 + (CHAR / 5) + (SKILL) + (MODIFIERS)

Operations include: Addition/Subtraction, Division with Rounding

 

9 + (((CHAR / 5) + (SKILL)) / (ITD)) + (MODIFIERS)

Operations include: Addition/Subtraction, Division with Rounding

 

Complexity is the same.

 

Now one might argue: But you figure the (CHAR/5) up front.

So? You can do the same thing with ((CHAR/5) + SKILL) = Total Skill Bonus

 

New formula for play: 9 + (Total Skill Bonus) / (ITD) + (Modifiers)

 

Now the one thing that does come into play here is GM preference. If the GM prefers having a Skill Roll Number (such as 11- or 14-) instead of a Total Skill Bonus, then they won't like this method. Myself, I prefer to have the bonus numbers up front so I can add/subtract modifiers as needed and the figure the final Skill Roll.

 

So GM preference plays a large roll (pun intended) in this. (8^D)

 

Also consider that many think that the Speed Chart adds too much complexity to the game, yet there are many who have used it and are now so used to it that it doesn't seem to even be a question of complexity anymore. I see this system being similar in nature. It just what you get used to.

 

Thanks for you response. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Alternate Skill System

 

How about this? (8^D)

 

Skill Roll

Skill Roll: 9 + ((CHAR/5 + SKILL) / (2 ^ (ITD - SKILL))) + (Modifiers)

 

Innate Task Difficulty (ITD)

Difficulty 0: Represents common tasks.

Difficulty 1: Represents average tasks.

Difficulty 2: Represents skilled tasks.

Difficulty 3: Represents expert tasks.

Difficulty 4: Represents genius tasks.

etc...

 

See if you can figure out what this does. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Alternate Skill System

 

Now the one thing that does come into play here is GM preference. If the GM prefers having a Skill Roll Number (such as 11- or 14-) instead of a Total Skill Bonus, then they won't like this method.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Yeah I think that was my inital "yuck" reaction. I dislike target number kind of systems, and this seems to lean in that direction. And I also try and avoid any math greater than addition or subtraction in play. I do lots of that in character creation, so no need to in play.

Looking at the second iteration I fail to see that point addressed

 

All in all, give me a roll under with modifiers and I'm happy. How we get to the base skill number that we roll under isn't important, as long as that number can be listed on a sheet, and have positive or negative modifiers applied to the roll (either the roll itself or the skill roll number on the sheet). Esepcially one where plusses are good and minusus are bad.

[schir1964]

Re: Alternate Skill System

 

Yeah I think that was my inital "yuck" reaction. I dislike target number kind of systems, and this seems to lean in that direction. And I also try and avoid any math greater than addition or subtraction in play. I do lots of that in character creation, so no need to in play.

Looking at the second iteration I fail to see that point addressed

 

All in all, give me a roll under with modifiers and I'm happy. How we get to the base skill number that we roll under isn't important, as long as that number can be listed on a sheet, and have positive or negative modifiers applied to the roll (either the roll itself or the skill roll number on the sheet). Esepcially one where plusses are good and minusus are bad.

Well, I might have something for you in a few weeks. < wink >

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Alternate Skill System

 

Well, I might have something for you in a few weeks. < wink >

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

[ghost-angel]

Re: Alternate Skill System

 

Ok, makes some more sense. I get what you're talking about now.

 

The issue I have with this is instead of strait plus/minus for difficulties on skills you now have 1 skill roll for each level of task at hand. With a Difficulty of 0-4 only you have 5 Skill Rolls, if prefigured, on your sheet for every skill you buy.

 

Still seems to overcomplicate for my tastes. As it stands the difficulty is assigned a modifier than can be easily applied after the rolls is done. Got a -3 to your roll? Easy, roll, state how much under your Skill you made it by and subtract 3. (14-, roll a 9 you made it by 5 - 3, or you made your roll by two.)

 

Your method, You have an ITD of 3, find correct roll level on sheet, roll under it. While not horrible it can be enough of a pain to disuade many people.

[schir1964]

Re: Alternate Skill System

 

The issue I have with this is instead of strait plus/minus for difficulties on skills you now have 1 skill roll for each level of task at hand. With a Difficulty of 0-4 only you have 5 Skill Rolls' date=' if prefigured, on your sheet for every skill you buy.[/quote']

You still haven't quite got it. (8^D)

The IDT is open ended, the numbers continue up as high as the GM wants.

 

But to help you look at it in a simpler manner, actually it's the way I look at it when doing the calculation.

 

The IDT represents the minimum Total Skill Bonus (TSB) required to have a +1 to that Task.

So,

 

ITD 1: TSB Adds directly

ITD 2: +1 Increase for every 2 TSB

ITD 3: +1 Increase for every 3 TSB

ITD 4: +1 Increase for every 4 TSB

etc...

 

So if you know they have 6 TSB vs 4 IDT you instantly know that's +1 Increase so 9 + 1 = 10- Roll + (MODIFIERS).

 

Maybe it's just simple for me, I don't know. I think it's just GM preference is the big issue. But that's okay, I'm sure it's not for everyone. (8^D)

 

Still seems to overcomplicate for my tastes. As it stands the difficulty is assigned a modifier than can be easily applied after the rolls is done. Got a -3 to your roll? Easy' date=' roll, state how much under your Skill you made it by and subtract 3. (14-, roll a 9 you made it by 5 - 3, or you made your roll by two.)[/quote']

Hey, I already agreed it's really a matter of GM preference than complexity. (8^D)

 

Your method' date=' You have an ITD of 3, find correct roll level on sheet, roll under it. While not horrible it can be enough of a pain to disuade many people.[/quote']

Same thing will be said about any alternate skill system that someone creates. Not really an argument there. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[ghost-angel]

Re: Alternate Skill System

 

Ah ok, I get it now. I just don't like it. You're right it's a GM preference issue there, no biggie.

 

I think I like the strait add/subtract better, you have 6 skill levels you get a penalty of 3 or 4. With your method I see a lot of min/maxers trying to find the break points based on how often certain difficulty levels come up so they aren't "wasting" points, or I could just be paranoid.

[schir1964]

Re: Alternate Skill System

 

Ah ok, I get it now. I just don't like it. You're right it's a GM preference issue there, no biggie.

 

I think I like the strait add/subtract better, you have 6 skill levels you get a penalty of 3 or 4. With your method I see a lot of min/maxers trying to find the break points based on how often certain difficulty levels come up so they aren't "wasting" points, or I could just be paranoid.

Yes, this system was designed to drive MiniMaxers insane, just as they think they figured out the break point, the GM changes the amount of occurances. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[prestidigitator]

Re: Alternate Skill System

 

In one of the recent Skill threads I posted my alternate method for die-roll resolution. That would actually make your system much easier, because the only thing you actually keep track of on the character sheet is the dvidend of the quotient in your equation. Therefore it would be as simple as getting an actual +1 to the roll for every +2, +3, etc., you would normally get.

 

Still, it is a level of complexity I would normally not find necessary in just about any game. Why? Because if I want a grittier game I will just be a little heavier on the realism and situational penalties, and if I want more of a comicy game, I will go a little lighter on them. Exaggerating the differences between tasks of various difficulties is simple enough for the GM to do for different games by gut feel IMO. That's not to say it isn't similar to what I might wind up doing in my head, but whatever.

 

I don't think I would make the divisor depend on the level of skill. That is going to create way too big a gap between levels of skill for my taste. It is interesting to consider mathematically, but of limited practical use from my perspective.