Questions on Invisiblity

[Xotl]

I've tried the FAQ, the book, and a couple of forum searches, so I hope I'm not wasting anyone's time.

 

1) I'm trying to figure out if the Mental Group counts as a targetting group for the purposes of buying Invisibility. What is the exact criteria for determining what constitutes a targetting sense group?

 

2) If the criteria is "any group that has one or more senses that can be targetting senses at no extra cost, regardless of whether or not they are targetting 100% of the time" (i.e Mind Scan, Danger Sense), can you buy Invisibility against Danger Sense at the 3pt level (Invisible to a non-targetting sense) and be invisible to it as long as the person with Danger Sense doesn't make his half roll (which turns Danger Sense to a targetting sense)?

 

3) Do you have to buy the No Fringe adder for each type of Invisibility you have? A character with Invisible to Mental Group, and Invisible to Danger Sense (no other adders, disads etc, same special effect) - what does he pay for No Fringe?

 

Thanks very much for your help.

[Col. Orange]

Re: Questions on Invisiblity

 

1) I'm trying to figure out if the Mental Group counts as a targetting group for the purposes of buying Invisibility. What is the exact criteria for determining what constitutes a targetting sense group?

 

I was under the impression that if the average PC or Named NPC has a given Targeting Sense then, and only then, do you have to pay the higher price.

i.e. in a standard Champions game, much less than half the people you meet will have access to the Mental Group, so the invisibility will be cheaper. In a game where the PCs are psi-cops, fer instance, it's gonna cost more (because you're going to get more use out of it).

 

 

2) If the criteria is "any group that has one or more senses that can be targetting senses at no extra cost, regardless of whether or not they are targetting 100% of the time" (i.e Mind Scan, Danger Sense), can you buy Invisibility against Danger Sense at the 3pt level (Invisible to a non-targetting sense) and be invisible to it as long as the person with Danger Sense doesn't make his half roll (which turns Danger Sense to a targetting sense)?

 

See above. If everyone has Danger Sense I'd say buy it at the more expensive level and give it a "not invisible if DS roll made by half" as a -1/4 limitation.

 

 

3) Do you have to buy the No Fringe adder for each type of Invisibility you have? A character with Invisible to Mental Group, and Invisible to Danger Sense (no other adders, disads etc, same special effect) - what does he pay for No Fringe?

 

I might be wrong but as long as you buy it as one power (Invisible to Mental Group, Invisible to Danger Sense as an additional Sense) I think you'd only buy off the fringe once.

[Xotl]

Re: Re: Questions on Invisiblity

 

Originally posted by Col. Orange

 

I was under the impression that if the average PC or Named NPC has a given Targeting Sense then, and only then, do you have to pay the higher price.

 

Well, I know of the general suggestion that you should modify costs to fit your game world, but is there any solid base-line that I could reference in the book? What's the starting point?

 

See above. If everyone has Danger Sense I'd say buy it at the more expensive level and give it a "not invisible if DS roll made by half" as a -1/4 limitation.

 

Yes, but what is the standard cost, with no campaign considerations? Or are you saying there really isn't one?

 

It all seems to hinge on how a targetting sense is defined.

 

I might be wrong but as long as you buy it as one power (Invisible to Mental Group, Invisible to Danger Sense as an additional Sense) I think you'd only buy off the fringe once.

 

I'd figure as much: I think that it remains all one power until you add a advantage or disavantage to one of them, or change the special effect, in which case that splits off and becomes its own power for the purposes of Fringe, etc.

 

Of course, I need some page or section references, so I can show my group instead of saying, "well, some guy told me it was this way on the internet", no offense intended

[Col. Orange]

Re: Re: Re: Questions on Invisiblity

 

Originally posted by Xotl

Of course, I need some page or section references, so I can show my group instead of saying, "well, some guy told me it was this way on the internet", no offense intended

 

Sorry, don't have the book with me and though the index is pretty comprehensive, I can't say for sure where I got the knowledge.

The example power Inisibility vs. Radar (in the margin) is a good pointer. Radar Sense is targeting but the power uses the lower cost (and in most campaigns, Radar Sense is rare).

If all else fails, just tell them the Colonel told you to do it.

[pinecone]

I'm sure I saw an "official ruling" some where...or maybe I am generalizing from the FAQ on shape shift ,a power with the same "is it targeting" issues...heck you can always ask Steve if you can't find it...

[TheEmerged]

I can say the following with 100% certainty:

 

Sight and Touch* Groups are targetting.

Unusual, Olfactory (Smell/Taste), and Hearing are not.

Detects should never get Targetting for free.

 

Personally, I would say that Mental and Radio should be considered targetting as well, since the main senses from this group people would want to be invisible to (Mind Scan and Radar) are targetting.

 

Going from Steve Long's interesting Sense article from HERO Almanac 2, Mental Awareness is not Targetting -- and Mental Awareness should probably be considered the base sense for the Mental Group. Hence, you *could* make an argument against it.

 

*Yes, I know FREd says most people have only Sight as a targetting sense. That's probably a mental lapse on Steve's part, since the HA2 article says it "can be used as a targetting sense"...

 

Editted to correct a mistake -- I originally said "Hearing" instead of Radio above.

[Xotl]

Originally posted by TheEmerged

Personally, I would say that Mental and Hearing should be considered targetting as well, since the main senses from this group people would want to be invisible to (Mind Scan and Radar) are targetting.

 

Well, the FAQ says the base sense for the Mental Group is Mental Awareness, and it's very clear that that sense is not targetting.

 

As to whether the Mental Group is a targetting group, it's hard to say: the sidebar examples for Invisibility clearly make Hearing and Radio to be non-targetting sense groups, and if such a clear-cut targetting power as Radar is part of a non-targetting group, then a power like Mind Scan, which requires a specific level to make targetting and is often part of a multipower that makes it unable to be used for proper targetting, probably shouldn't make the Mental Group a targetting group. Then again, it doesn't really say anywhere for sure.

 

The other real difficulty is on Danger Sense. I still can't figure out if you need to buy a 5 pt level of Invisibility against it, or if you can buy a 3 pt level and be Invisible to it half the time, or if the 3 pt level does nothing against it.

 

I'll probably ask Steve soon: I just wanted to make sure I wouldn't be wasting his time.

[TheEmerged]

Part of the problem with Danger Sense is that it's in the Unusual group, which isn't a true group and therefore doesn't have a base sense.

 

I've ruled for my own campaigns that sense-affecting powers against Unusual group sense are always bought at Targetting cost. This is at least in part due to the fact that invisibility to most of the unusual senses people want to be invisible to (Danger Sense, Combat Sense, and "Nova Senses") cause major campaign issues.