Chuckg Posted January 2, 2006 Report Share Posted January 2, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever I get to see a lot of other peoples' posts reflected in Andrew Cermak's quotes of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 2, 2006 Report Share Posted January 2, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Spidey vs. Firelord...positive conclusive evidence (it's on the page, it happened), even longer argument based on anecdotal evidence and opinion... That's false. The evidence from other comics that we've been using, was *also* "on the page, it happened". We even posted scans of those other comics. The problem here is not that there's evidence on the page. It that's that there's CONTRADICTORY evidence on the page -- but one side seems adamantly against the very idea of admitting that a Spider-Man story could have been inconsistent with another comics story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBikle Posted January 2, 2006 Report Share Posted January 2, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever This debate almost needs its own message board. Not just its own Message board thread, but its own message board. Now ChuckG is going panel-by-panel through the issue. The Zapruder Film didn't go through this kind of scrutiny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Cermak Posted January 2, 2006 Report Share Posted January 2, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever And so, after days of effort, we circle around right back to the very beginning of the argument -- plausibility doesn't matter, consistency doesn't matter, if Spidey won, then it has to be a good story. Spidey's performance, not consistent with either the vast majority of his own performances re: punching(*), or pretty much the entire totality of Firelord's performances re: taking punches. Your only argument to the contrary relies upon imagining things into existence that never actually appeared anywhere in the comic. Which means your argument has nothing to back it up. The whole *point* of the pro-Spidey vs Firelord position is that Spidey can hit hard enough to hurt Firelord, so he just needs to hit him a lot to eventually bring him down. That's what we've been saying this entire thread. To demonstrate it, we've shown him hurting Thor 2 and Rhino and Titania. We've shown that Firelord hasn't proven any better at taking a punch than any of these characters. Spidey can hurt Firelord if he hits him hard enough. Despite your protestations, that panel shows Spidey hitting Firelord a *lot*. Eventually, Firelord goes down. All Spidey needed was the confidence to make a stand...or be left with nowhere left to run. It's fairly simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted January 2, 2006 Report Share Posted January 2, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever I get to see a lot of other peoples' posts reflected in Andrew Cermak's quotes of them. Funny how Chuckg missed the request for an issue number supporting his assertion that Cap KO'd Rhino. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Cermak Posted January 2, 2006 Report Share Posted January 2, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Those were separate statements. Who knows how much time passed between each panel. It's not like Spidey said half a statement on one panel' date=' and the second half on another panel.[/quote'] Good point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 2, 2006 Report Share Posted January 2, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever The whole *point* of the pro-Spidey vs Firelord position is that Spidey can hit hard enough to hurt Firelord' date=' so he just needs to hit him a lot to eventually bring him down. That's what we've been saying this entire thread.[/quote'] But you can't *SHOW* Spidey hitting Firelord a lot. It's not on the page. Your argument for 'proving' that "a lot" happened was 'the artist didn't have room to draw it'. Except that proves nothing but what you want to personally believe. So the primary evidence for your line of reasoning -- doesn't actually exist. Except in your own imaginations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted January 2, 2006 Report Share Posted January 2, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Notice how Chuckg leaves out most of Andrew Cermak's post? The parts where he explicitly cites detailed evidence for his positions? Talk about a martial dodge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Cermak Posted January 2, 2006 Report Share Posted January 2, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever But you can't *SHOW* Spidey hitting Firelord a lot. It's not on the page. Your argument for 'proving' that "a lot" happened was 'the artist didn't have room to draw it'. Except that proves nothing but what you want to personally believe. So the primary evidence for your line of reasoning -- doesn't actually exist. Except in your own imaginations. Will you listen to yourself? Comics dwell in the imagination. We see blobs of colored ink and our imagination turns them into pictures. We see a sequence of standstill pictures and our imagination turns them into moving stories. The only one pretending imagination has nothing to do with reading a comic book is you, and with that mistaken impression it's no wonder you fail to understand that panel and what it represents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 2, 2006 Report Share Posted January 2, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Good point. So, Spidey went from "I'll keep on coming back... keep fighting... until I find a way to beat you! To win!" to "I won't give up you hear? I WON'T! I WON'T!"... only, like, he paused for a nice long while between both statements. Despite the fact that up until then, he'd been going off at the mouth continuously. Now this *IS* a 'pacing' issue. And pacing says? Pacing can't be used to prove the existence of things that we never actually see. It can, however, be used to help prove the *NON*-existence of things that we never actually see. Such as big mysterious time gaps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Cermak Posted January 2, 2006 Report Share Posted January 2, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Notice how Chuckg leaves out most of Andrew Cermak's post? The parts where he explicitly cites detailed evidence for his positions? Talk about a martial dodge. That's his MO. He tries to distract people from it by accusing them of dishonesty at the drop of a hat, but it's just a mask for his own omissions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 2, 2006 Report Share Posted January 2, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever > Will you listen to yourself? Comics dwell in the imagination. Fine. I imagine that Spider-Man is actually a guy named Bob Barker, not Peter Parker. ... what do you mean that doesn't work? Could it be that... gasp!... there are things established in comics fact beyond the power of an individual reader's imagination to change? > We see blobs of colored ink and our imagination turns them into > pictures. We see a sequence of standstill pictures and our imagination > turns them into moving stories. And we see a clearly-drawn sequence of a short brutal takedown and our imagination turns it into this big long drawn-out fight, both sides throwing many more blows than the artist ever actually shows us! ... oh, wait, your imagination does that. My imagination, not quite so overdosing on the wacky juice. > The only one pretending imagination has nothing to do with reading a > comic book is you, [snip] Wrong again. I am saying that imagination can't be used to dream up entire event sequences that are never actually shown and present them as canon proof. That is not the same thing as saying that no imagination can ever be used to enjoy a comic ever. Yet again, you take an opposing position and exaggerate the **** out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 2, 2006 Report Share Posted January 2, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever That's his MO. He tries to distract people from it by accusing them of dishonesty at the drop of a hat' date=' but it's just a mask for his own omissions.[/quote'] What "omissions"? You *have* no evidence that Spidey hit Firelord 'a lot'. You've specifically admitted that you *can't* show it to me anywhere on the page. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted January 2, 2006 Report Share Posted January 2, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Observation: Cap vs. Batman...no conclusive evidence, long argument based on anecdotal evidence and opinion Spidey vs. Firelord...positive conclusive evidence (it's on the page, it happened), even longer argument based on anecdotal evidence and opinion...and denial Still, it has a way to go before it beats Takofenes vs. Dr. Destroyer...statistical evidence, though no actual printed fight, longest argument ever based on anecdotal evidence and opinion So, it seems that with more evidence the arguments get longer... Heh. That's a really cool observation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted January 2, 2006 Report Share Posted January 2, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever That's his MO. He tries to distract people from it by accusing them of dishonesty at the drop of a hat' date=' but it's just a mask for his own omissions.[/quote'] It's just fun pointing it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted January 2, 2006 Report Share Posted January 2, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever I get to see a lot of other peoples' posts reflected in Andrew Cermak's quotes of them. You responded right after a Gary post to Gary's point. Andrew Cermak had not quoted Gary's point yet, if he has. He didn't have time to before you responded to Gary's point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted January 2, 2006 Report Share Posted January 2, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever What "omissions"? You *have* no evidence that Spidey hit Firelord 'a lot'. You've specifically admitted that you *can't* show it to me anywhere on the page. Oh where you quoted Andrew as: The whole *point* of the pro-Spidey vs Firelord position is that Spidey can hit hard enough to hurt Firelord, so he just needs to hit him a lot to eventually bring him down. That's what we've been saying this entire thread. But completely left out this part: To demonstrate it, we've shown him hurting Thor 2 and Rhino and Titania. We've shown that Firelord hasn't proven any better at taking a punch than any of these characters. Spidey can hurt Firelord if he hits him hard enough. Despite your protestations, that panel shows Spidey hitting Firelord a *lot*. Eventually, Firelord goes down. All Spidey needed was the confidence to make a stand...or be left with nowhere left to run. It's fairly simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted January 2, 2006 Report Share Posted January 2, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever What "omissions"? You *have* no evidence that Spidey hit Firelord 'a lot'. You've specifically admitted that you *can't* show it to me anywhere on the page. You can't be this dense, which leads to only one conclusion and it isn't flattering to you. I think you've fallen into your own trap. Perhaps, now would be the time to stop either by simply stopping, admitting defeat, or making a few accusations against the character of those who disagree with you while twisting their arguments and leaving in a huff. Your choice. After all, you are only delaying the inevitable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KA. Posted January 2, 2006 Report Share Posted January 2, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever I finally quit reading around page 15, but will everyone please just admit that: A) Firelord did, in fact, create the universe in 6 days, and on the 7th day defeated Spider-Man and Spider-Man is a construct created by Ego - The Living Planet, and therefore, while being invunerable to both Thor and Hercules, is easy pickings for Firelord. I would say more, but I have to run to the store to pick up my copies of: The Amazing Firelord Fire Lord : The Spectacular Firelord Marvel Team-Up featuring Firelord and Special Guest Star : Firelord! and The Official Handbook of the Firelord Universe Posted January 2nd, The Year of Our Firelord - 2006, KA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 2, 2006 Report Share Posted January 2, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Not bad. Of course, nobody wants Firelord to be God. We just want Spider-Man's victories to be ones he can honestly achieve, not ones he can achieve only by a sickly overdose of Writer's Fiat. It *cheapens* Spider-Man to get jobbers. I'd rather have him win one honest fight vs. the Molten Man than ten fiat-driven implausibilities vs. Thanos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted January 2, 2006 Report Share Posted January 2, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever > Will you listen to yourself? Comics dwell in the imagination. Fine. I imagine that Spider-Man is actually a guy named Bob Barker, not Peter Parker. ... what do you mean that doesn't work? Could it be that... gasp!... there are things established in comics fact beyond the power of an individual reader's imagination to change? > We see blobs of colored ink and our imagination turns them into > pictures. We see a sequence of standstill pictures and our imagination > turns them into moving stories. And we see a clearly-drawn sequence of a short brutal takedown and our imagination turns it into this big long drawn-out fight, both sides throwing many more blows than the artist ever actually shows us! ... oh, wait, your imagination does that. My imagination, not quite so overdosing on the wacky juice. > The only one pretending imagination has nothing to do with reading a > comic book is you, [snip] Wrong again. I am saying that imagination can't be used to dream up entire event sequences that are never actually shown and present them as canon proof. That is not the same thing as saying that no imagination can ever be used to enjoy a comic ever. Yet again, you take an opposing position and exaggerate the **** out of it. Whee, a 67 page pointless argument! I can't resist! Do you assume that HERO combat details every blow or only those blows that are reflected with specific to-hit rolls and subsequent damage rolls? I don't have a clue and couldn't care less about Spiderman and Fireguy, but I'm curious in catching up to this as to how you perceive RPG combat, then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted January 2, 2006 Report Share Posted January 2, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Not bad. Of course, nobody wants Firelord to be God. We just want Spider-Man's victories to be ones he can honestly achieve, not ones he can achieve only by a sickly overdose of Writer's Fiat. It *cheapens* Spider-Man to get jobbers. I'd rather have him win one honest fight vs. the Molten Man than ten fiat-driven implausibilities vs. Thanos. In other words, 75% if not 99% of comic book writing (much like most writing) is really really annoying? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted January 2, 2006 Report Share Posted January 2, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever If ChuckG really put everyone on his ignore list that he's said he had' date=' this thread would have died off 40 pages ago.[/quote'] Citing ignore lists gets you ignore! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted January 2, 2006 Report Share Posted January 2, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Observation: Cap vs. Batman...no conclusive evidence, long argument based on anecdotal evidence and opinion Spidey vs. Firelord...positive conclusive evidence (it's on the page, it happened), even longer argument based on anecdotal evidence and opinion...and denial Still, it has a way to go before it beats Takofenes vs. Dr. Destroyer...statistical evidence, though no actual printed fight, longest argument ever based on anecdotal evidence and opinion So, it seems that with more evidence the arguments get longer... Something to do with the stakes being smaller perhaps... But really, I gotta give credit to Takofanes versus Dr. Destroyer lacking in evidence, since whle we have "hard stats" we don't have a whole bunch of combat style and personal style evidence and volumes of comic history to draw from unlike the ohter charaters. We all know how one athlete can seem better on paper but once introduced into the big leagues and competing among others the situation changes dramatically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 2, 2006 Report Share Posted January 2, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever In other words' date=' 75% if not 99% of comic book writing (much like most writing) is really really annoying?[/quote'] I dunno what comic books you're reading, but the ones I like don't have 75% jobberfests. Usually, the stories make sense. If a given comic turns into the badly written jobber parade, shazam, it's off the pull list. OK, this is buried back in the thread a ways, so you probably didn't see if it you're skimming, but McCoy and I were discussing an instance where Spidey actually managed to drag Mjolnir off-course a few degrees in flight, when he was trying to stop it from killing someone accidentally. Going *strictly* by the form card, Spidey probably shouldn't have been able to do that. Did we care? **** no. Good story, good writing, and it only stretched plausibility a *little* bit, not a huge gaping amount. That feat, we accept no problem. We're not *that* anal. It's not that we're totally inflexible, it's just that some things are too big to swallow even if you're willing to accept a little stretch. Or, as the saying goes, 'There is a difference between suspending your disbelief and hanging it by the neck until it's dead.' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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