Worst comic book superfight ever

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Not to mention, you or somebody else objected to all kinds of things when I characterized the Avengers as 'Spidey's cheering section' back further in this thread, and now you're arguing that the Avengers were not only Spidey's cheering section, but they didn't even cheer him just on the last page of the comic, they stood there for a while and watched the fight like spectators.

 

... no.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

> How many times Spidey punched Firelord isn't important.

 

On the contrary, it's *very* important -- to the argument you've been trying to make. You bet your position on Spidey's alleged 'quantity', now you've got to back that alleged 'quantity' up.

 

> How many times Firelord swiped at Spidey isn't important. We don't

> need to know those things, [snip]

 

Thank you for admitting that you have no evidence to back up your claims about quantity. You have only your own wishful thinking, and that's apparently all you feel you need.

 

Well, it might convince you, but it damn sure ain't convincing.

 

I'm goping to go out on a limb and guess that most comic book artists don'tr draw each issue on the basis that they will eventually be questioned in court on the accuracy and completeness of the blow by blow description of the fight scene.

 

The evidence trhat Spidey hit Firelord enough to take him down seems pretty clear - Firelord is down.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

If ChuckG really put everyone on his ignore list that he's said he had' date=' this thread would have died off 40 pages ago.[/quote']

 

Now, now - maybe we jhust need him to explain how much time passes between each "ignore" and "unignore".

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Amazing how evidence about Firelord only counts if it's in the pages of AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #269 or #270. Evidence from other books about Firelord's durability (or damn near anything else that contradicts your case), totally blown off.

 

To turn your statement around -- evidence that Firelord can take repeated punches from people way stronger than Spider-Man and not be KO'ed, it's there on the page... Firelord's still up.

[Gary]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Firelord was fighting back. From ASM 270:

 

All the while, his uncanny Spider-Sense and his incredible reflexes keep him just beyond the former Herald's reach.

 

This is right at the scene where Spiderman is raining blow after blow on Firelord. So clearly Firelord was trying to counterattack.

 

This should settle things once and for all, but obviously it won't.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Funny how Chuckg missed the request for an issue number supporting his assertion that Cap KO'd Rhino.

 

Quoted in case I'm not on Chuck's ignore list. Andrew, he says he sees your posts - maybe you can quote the request for an issue # where Cap KO's the Rhino?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Notice how Chuckg leaves out most of Andrew Cermak's post? The parts where he explicitly cites detailed evidence for his positions?

 

Talk about a martial dodge.

 

I'm gonna have to dispute this one, Gary. A Martial Dodge requires actual skill.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Nope, sorry, won't do that. Not at all. Completely blowing off your request. Ignoring it entirely. Consider the claim totally withdrawn if you want, don't care.

 

... ok, the real reason is, I remember reading it but I can't remember the issue #. (I've been looking for the damn thing all day.) Which means that yes, you're going to say that the claim can't be backed up. *shrugs* So withdraw it already. Don't need it for the rest of my argument to still be alive. Besides, the whole Rhino thing, getting sidetracked from the issue of Firelord's durability anyway.

 

You see, you guys never showed that the Rhino was equal in durability to Firelord. So, showing that Spidey can clock the Rhino, does jack to show his Firelord victory is credible. I never understood what it did have to do with it anyway, and should never have let myself get sidetracked mentioning it at all.

[Gary]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Sigh. Andrew Cermak already showed a scan where the Hulk, who clearly is of Thor class Str, punching Rhino in the face and doing not very much.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Quoted in case I'm not on Chuck's ignore list. Andrew' date=' he says he sees your posts - maybe you can quote the request for an issue # where Cap KO's the Rhino?[/quote']

 

You're not, Andrew's not, Gary is, Agent X is. I took Gary off it for a short while when I had to dig out that THOR #232 issue at McCoy's request as evidence in the question whether or not Gary was lying about it, but he went back on a little while after. Outside of that, nobody's been on-again-off-again.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Sigh. Andrew Cermak already showed a scan where the Hulk' date=' who clearly is of Thor class Str, punching Rhino in the face and doing not very much.[/quote']

 

That I did.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

So, you're saying that Hulk can't punch out the Rhino, but Spidey can.

 

So obviously, this means that Spider-Man is more powerful than the Hulk.

 

... what's wrong with that picture?

[Snake Gandhi]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I'm still trying to figure out how someone who, more often than not is hardly phased by the like of Hercules and Thor's punches, is going down to Spider-Man's fists?

 

I mean, doesn't matter if you swing a thousand times, you're still hitting a steel door with a whiffle ball bat.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I prefer to think of it as firing 1000 7.62mm minigun rounds into the front armor slope of an Abrams, myself. But yes.

 

Maybe Spidey's fists are Penetrating? He picked up the Rock-Smashing Fist at Yengtao Temple, you see...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

To turn your statement around -- evidence that Firelord can take repeated punches from people way stronger than Spider-Man and not be KO'ed' date=' it's there on the page... Firelord's still up.[/quote']

 

Nobody's arguing that Firelord has been shown to be durable (vs Thor and Herc) in some books. However, he has also been shown to be sufficiently non-durable as to be Stunned (an impressive feat when I consider my expectatioon of Firelord's CON).

 

The battles with Thor/herc seem to rage briefly, then they decide they want to be friends and walk away. Had they raged on, who knows? Firelord has vast offensive power. Maybe he could have taken Thor/Herc down before falling himself. Maybe Thor/Herc would have taken him down.

 

But Firelord couldn't lay a glove on Spidey near the end of the battle (the part the Avengers would have seen as they aproached, as opposed to the beginning and middle where SPidey actually tried to locate them in the hopes they could take Firelord for him), and refused to use an aea attack to win, so that offensive power was useless. Would it take Spidey way more unanswered punches to take Firelord down than Thor would need to land? Sure. Did Spidey's superior Speed and whirlwind of attacks allow him to land punches way faster than Thor? You bet. Was Spidey's Dex and SpideySense, combined, enough to prevent a retaliatory strike that would take him out landing, so he could keep going longer than Thor/Herc? Yeah, I'll buy that - it's his schtick.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I prefer to think of it as firing 1000 7.62mm minigun rounds into the front armor slope of an Abrams, myself. But yes.

 

Maybe Spidey's fists are Penetrating? He picked up the Rock-Smashing Fist at Yengtao Temple, you see...

 

Maybe Firelord's durability is made up more of Damage Reduction than pure defenses.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Nobody's arguing that Firelord has been shown to be durable (vs Thor and Herc) in some books. However, he has also been shown to be sufficiently non-durable as to be Stunned (an impressive feat when I consider my expectatioon of Firelord's CON).

 

The battles with Thor/herc seem to rage briefly, then they decide they want to be friends and walk away. Had they raged on, who knows?

 

So, the fact that Hercules (or Thor) *might* have been able to beat Firelord down in an extended battle can be considered proof that Spidey *should* be able to beat Firelord down in an extended battle? (And that's only if we assume for the sake of argument that it /was/ an extended battle, 'cause one page don't look too damn extended to me! But even if we *do* spot you this one for free, we're still left with...)

 

Hrm, wouldn't that only work if Spidey = Hercules? (or Thor)

 

Is that what you're saying?

 

(add) And yes, you say the 'whirlwind of punches' thing. So? Spidey is faster than Thor, yes, but it's like SPD 7 over SPD 5, not SPD 20 over SPD 2 like you're making it sound.

[Gary]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I'm still trying to figure out how someone who, more often than not is hardly phased by the like of Hercules and Thor's punches, is going down to Spider-Man's fists?

 

I mean, doesn't matter if you swing a thousand times, you're still hitting a steel door with a whiffle ball bat.

 

 

Because Spiderman's fists aren't a whiffle ball bat. Especially since he's proven in the past that he can reach the 100 ton level of Str if he really tries.

 

Even if Spiderman can't routinely reach that level of Str, he obviously has deep inner reserves of power that he usually doesn't tap.

 

And if Firelord can be Stunned by just Thor's fist, I wouldn't say that he's 'hardly phased'.

[McCoy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

So, *both* Spider-Man and Captain America are now supposed to be punching in the Thor or the Hulk range of power?

 

That's even stupider.

 

Then again, we've never pretended that Spider-Man-vs-Firelord is the *only* example of lazy writers forcing powerful villains to job for no reason, merely the archetypical example.

Question, are we talking the human optimum Captain America of most of his carreer, or the Viper-induced Super Strength Cap of the 70's? IIRC while is Super Strength lasted he was in the same class as Namor. (And I'd put Spidy and Namor in the same league. Unless it was under water Spidy would beat Namor like a red-headed step child, but they're in the same league.)

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Maybe Firelord's durability is made up more of Damage Reduction than pure defenses.

 

Damage Reduction exists in Marvel comics? I must have missed that Bullpen Bulletin.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Question' date=' are we talking the human optimum Captain America of most of his carreer, or the Viper-induced Super Strength Cap of the 70's? IIRC while is Super Strength lasted he was in the same class as Namor. (And I'd put Spidy and Namor in the same league. Unless it was under water Spidy would beat Namor like a red-headed step child, but they're in the same league.)[/quote']

 

Here we disagree. Namor is Ben Grimm's equal on dry land. Spidey damn sure ain't winning no arm-wrestlin' contests with the ever-lovin' blue-eyed Thing!

[McCoy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Found a scan showing Rhino's durability.

 

Rhino takes a punch in the face from the Hulk and doesn't go down. In fact, his visible reaction is comparable to the reaction Firelord gives when Thor hits him in the earlier Thor 306 scan. Given that Hulk and Thor reside in similar territory on the hitting power scale, this suggests that Rhino and Firelord aren't so dissimilar on the slugfest durability scale. And no one's disputing Spidey's ability to leak stun through on Rhino.

Humm, looks to me like Hulk punched Rhino, Abomination grappled Hulk, Hulk put a martial throw on Abomination, Rhino prepared to attack Hulk. If all three characters had a simular SPD, Rhino had a phase while Hulk was busy with Abomination.

 

I think he grabbed a Rec.

[Snake Gandhi]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Especially since he's proven in the past that he can reach the 100 ton level of Str if he really tries.

 

So Spidey is really Class 100, and all these times he's been acting at Class 15 he's just been goofing around?

 

And if Firelord can be Stunned by just Thor's fist, I wouldn't say that he's 'hardly phased'.

He Stunned once that i've seen, and hit many more times where he wasn't stunned. Hence the me saying 'more often than not' in my post.

 

But then it hardly matters, Spidey is as strong as Thor according to you, he just never bothers using that strength.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

So Spidey *IS* as strong as Thor, Hercules, or the Hulk. There. At least one of 'em has gone on the record as claiming it.

 

Well, we can safely now.

[Gary]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

 

So Spidey is really Class 100, and all these times he's been acting at Class 15 he's just been goofing around?

 

I quoted the issue numbers, 32-33. Feel free to check them out. It was a push, but it shows what inner reserves he has.

 

 

He Stunned once that i've seen, and hit many more times where he wasn't stunned. Hence the me saying 'more often than not' in my post.

 

But then it hardly matters, Spidey is as strong as Thor according to you, he just never bothers using that strength.

 

 

They haven't traded many punches, and when they do it's usually only 2-3 before they decide they're friends.

 

And there are at least 2 Con Stuns. One in issue 232 and one in issue 306, although that one was with Mjolnir.