Snake Gandhi Posted January 3, 2006 Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever I quoted the issue numbers, 32-33. Feel free to check them out. It was a push, but it shows what inner reserves he has. Oh, I'm sure it happened. Hulk has also been choked out by a snake, and Wolverine survived being hit with a nuke too. You really have no problem with Pete lifting 100 tons? After 40+ years of him being not nearly that strong? Well, there's really no point in arguing then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted January 3, 2006 Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever When Spidey's in an "altered state", he still has his full DCV. A DCV that would be hard for Firelord to hit under the best of circumstances. Cut the crap. Two thirds of this book was Spidy being in maximum dodge mode, using every advantage his Spider Sense gave him, and being missed by inches. Now he is so out of touch with is Spider Sense, which you spent several post claiming was the thing that made him untouchable, that he does not even realize when Firelord ceases to be a threat, and you're claiming Firelord still can't hit him? Sloppy, inconsistant writing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted January 3, 2006 Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Oh, I'm sure it happened. Hulk has also been choked out by a snake, and Wolverine survived being hit with a nuke too. You really have no problem with Pete lifting 100 tons? After 40+ years of him being not nearly that strong? Well, there's really no point in arguing then. In extreme emergencies? Giving it everything he has because his life or the life of a loved one was on the line? Yes. Entirely consistent with how he has been portrayed. He was after all, saving the life of Aunt May in those 2 issues. Does he normally walk around with that Str in day to day life? No. However, day to day life isn't normally considered an extreme emergency. Firelord obviously was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted January 3, 2006 Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Cut the crap. Two thirds of this book was Spidy being in maximum dodge mode, using every advantage his Spider Sense gave him, and being missed by inches. Now he is so out of touch with is Spider Sense, which you spent several post claiming was the thing that made him untouchable, that he does not even realize when Firelord ceases to be a threat, and you're claiming Firelord still can't hit him? Sloppy, inconsistant writing. McCoy, the panel itself said so. All the while, his uncanny Spider-Sense and his incredible reflexes keep him just beyond the former Herald's reach. Right in the panel where he's going all out. Cased Closed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted January 3, 2006 Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Did I rep him for calling you a liar? I don't believe I did. If I did' date=' then I apologize. If I didn't, you're taking this way too personally.[/quote'] Nope, what I'm saying is you have much lower standards for those who agree with your opinion and your standards for those who don't seem designed to pretend they are doing something trollish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted January 3, 2006 Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever 1) I think its a bad story because the underdog doesn't win through guile, or guts, or heart. He wins by suddenly being strong enough to beat the guy unconcious with his bare fists, which by all previous examples by both parties he shouldn't be. Its not about continuity, its about consistancy. 2) I've yet to see a Herald's power 'fluctuate' from 'trade punches with Thor' to 'get knocked the F- out by Peter Parker' in any other instance besides this one. Even at the previously shown lowest levels a herald was well above Pete. 1) He wins by having confidence enough to manage his fear and take a stand and put his all into felling someone who on most given days would be victorious - not exactly unheroic or undramatic 2) Your assumption that at the lowest levels a herald is well above Pete is unsupported - especially by the Spidey Stories I've read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Gandhi Posted January 3, 2006 Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Does he normally walk around with that Str in day to day life? No. However' date=' day to day life isn't normally considered an extreme emergency. Firelord obviously was.[/quote']So Firelord was the first time Spidey was ever in a life or death fight? No other villian ever had a chance to kill Spidey, bringing out this Hulk like strength? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 3, 2006 Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Hey, folks, if we're digging up old stuff, how's about AMAZING SPIDER-MAN vol. 1, #22? In this, Spidey is worried about his odds against, and praying for his strength to not fail him, against... ... a giant python. He beats it, but it required 'split-second timing and an extraordinary portion of luck!' There is no way that this comic and a comic with Spidey being Class 100 can both be true. Which one will you discard and why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted January 3, 2006 Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever I'm still trying to figure out how someone who, more often than not is hardly phased by the like of Hercules and Thor's punches, is going down to Spider-Man's fists? I mean, doesn't matter if you swing a thousand times, you're still hitting a steel door with a whiffle ball bat. You missed that whole issue of Heralds seeming to have variable defenses probably because of how they use the Power Cosmic much like a VPP to reinforce their natural defenses? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted January 3, 2006 Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Nobody's arguing that Firelord has been shown to be durable (vs Thor and Herc) in some books. However, he has also been shown to be sufficiently non-durable as to be Stunned (an impressive feat when I consider my expectatioon of Firelord's CON). The battles with Thor/herc seem to rage briefly, then they decide they want to be friends and walk away. Had they raged on, who knows? Firelord has vast offensive power. Maybe he could have taken Thor/Herc down before falling himself. Maybe Thor/Herc would have taken him down. But Firelord couldn't lay a glove on Spidey near the end of the battle (the part the Avengers would have seen as they aproached, as opposed to the beginning and middle where SPidey actually tried to locate them in the hopes they could take Firelord for him), and refused to use an aea attack to win, so that offensive power was useless. Would it take Spidey way more unanswered punches to take Firelord down than Thor would need to land? Sure. Did Spidey's superior Speed and whirlwind of attacks allow him to land punches way faster than Thor? You bet. Was Spidey's Dex and SpideySense, combined, enough to prevent a retaliatory strike that would take him out landing, so he could keep going longer than Thor/Herc? Yeah, I'll buy that - it's his schtick. They understand this. They're playing stupid. They've played Champions long enough to know what a guy with medium offense can do with a high speed or rapid fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted January 3, 2006 Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Here we disagree. Namor is Ben Grimm's equal on dry land. Spidey damn sure ain't winning no arm-wrestlin' contests with the ever-lovin' blue-eyed Thing! Powerful punches aren't all about how much you can lift. I mentioned this before, but of course, I'm on ignore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted January 3, 2006 Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Hey, folks, if we're digging up old stuff, how's about AMAZING SPIDER-MAN vol. 1, #22? In this, Spidey is worried about his odds against, and praying for his strength to not fail him, against... ... a giant python. He beats it, but it required 'split-second timing and an extraordinary portion of luck!' There is no way that this comic and a comic with Spidey being Class 100 can both be true. Which one will you discard and why? This was issue 22. He probably wasn't entirely sure about the limits of his Str. Given what actually happened in issue 32-33, he would've broken out of the python's grip easily. In issue 32-33, he was forced to unleash everything he had to save Aunt May's life. If you can scan 22, then you must be able to scan 32-33. Please do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted January 3, 2006 Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Humm, looks to me like Hulk punched Rhino, Abomination grappled Hulk, Hulk put a martial throw on Abomination, Rhino prepared to attack Hulk. If all three characters had a simular SPD, Rhino had a phase while Hulk was busy with Abomination. I think he grabbed a Rec. Let's not get silly with the Champions comparisons. They go to illustrate concept not to actually decide what the artist or writer intended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted January 3, 2006 Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever So Spidey is really Class 100, and all these times he's been acting at Class 15 he's just been goofing around? He Stunned once that i've seen, and hit many more times where he wasn't stunned. Hence the me saying 'more often than not' in my post. But then it hardly matters, Spidey is as strong as Thor according to you, he just never bothers using that strength. Trolling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted January 3, 2006 Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever So Firelord was the first time Spidey was ever in a life or death fight? No other villian ever had a chance to kill Spidey' date=' bringing out this Hulk like strength?[/quote'] And I remember a few times where Spiderman has cut loose. Spiderman is the type of hero who'll rise to the occasion if he has to. And has done so many times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted January 3, 2006 Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Is *anyone* convinced by Chuckg's statement that Spidey only hit Firelord 10 times? McCoy' date=' if you're out there, do you seriously buy that?[/quote'] Irrelivant. Ten, maybe more, point is Spidy is no longer dodging and, despite the caption, has hysterical blindness to his Spider Sense (or else would have realized when Firelord is Knocked out). Since Firelord missed by inches when Spidy was dodging, if Firelord was not Stuned by the first Haymaker, or Knocked Out by the kick (second attack), Spider Flambe. Firelord was, at best, out on his feet after the kick. The rest was a Rodney King beatdown. "He was trying to get up." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted January 3, 2006 Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Oh, I'm sure it happened. Hulk has also been choked out by a snake, and Wolverine survived being hit with a nuke too. You really have no problem with Pete lifting 100 tons? After 40+ years of him being not nearly that strong? Well, there's really no point in arguing then. I don't think you've read enough Spider-Man if you've come to that conclusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted January 3, 2006 Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Cut the crap. Two thirds of this book was Spidy being in maximum dodge mode, using every advantage his Spider Sense gave him, and being missed by inches. Now he is so out of touch with is Spider Sense, which you spent several post claiming was the thing that made him untouchable, that he does not even realize when Firelord ceases to be a threat, and you're claiming Firelord still can't hit him? Sloppy, inconsistant writing. You've never been in a blood rage and fought a whole lot better as a result? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KA. Posted January 3, 2006 Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Not bad. Of course, nobody wants Firelord to be God. We just want Spider-Man's victories to be ones he can honestly achieve, not ones he can achieve only by a sickly overdose of Writer's Fiat. It *cheapens* Spider-Man to get jobbers. I'd rather have him win one honest fight vs. the Molten Man than ten fiat-driven implausibilities vs. Thanos. Thanks for taking it in the spirit it was intended. KA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted January 3, 2006 Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever So Firelord was the first time Spidey was ever in a life or death fight? No other villian ever had a chance to kill Spidey' date=' bringing out this Hulk like strength?[/quote'] NOT Hulk like strength. Punches with enough force to put stun on Firelord. Spidey has never been shown to lift as much as the Hulk's upper limit, if there is one. He has been shown to lift far more than 10-20 tons on multiple occasions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Gandhi Posted January 3, 2006 Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever For the folks pointing out that obviously Firelord didn't have his VPP set for defenses, or that it was Spidey using Rapid Fire to overcome firelord's DR and low Con, could you guys show me you're getting these stats that Marvel uses for their characters when writing the stories, cause I don't have them. This is pretty simple, neither Thor nor Hercules could knock Firelord out, how in God's green an virgin earth is Spider-Man doing it make any sense? 'Spidey hit him alot?' Come on, Thor's best shot Con Stunned him, and most of the time he couldn't even do that. Thor's punches are a whole hell of a lot harder than Pete's, I don't care how many times he swings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Gandhi Posted January 3, 2006 Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever NOT Hulk like strength.According to Gary he can lift 100 tons if he wants to hard enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan D. Hurricanes Posted January 3, 2006 Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Hey, folks, if we're digging up old stuff, how's about AMAZING SPIDER-MAN vol. 1, #22? In this, Spidey is worried about his odds against, and praying for his strength to not fail him, against... ... a giant python. He beats it, but it required 'split-second timing and an extraordinary portion of luck!' There is no way that this comic and a comic with Spidey being Class 100 can both be true. Which one will you discard and why? Princess Python says right there in that scan : "He's unbeatable." Case closed. Seriously, the whole class 100 or class 15 thing is a bogus argument. Those class levels were approximations, not steadfast rules, and they came and went with the tide. Spidey class 15? Hardly. For that matter, the Hulk, Thor and the Thing have all lifted or moved objects well over 100 tons. I suspect that the writers were simply not aware of how much some things weighed, that's all. Attempts at quantification have all been a mixed blessing at most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted January 3, 2006 Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever For the folks pointing out that obviously Firelord didn't have his VPP set for defenses, or that it was Spidey using Rapid Fire to overcome firelord's DR and low Con, could you guys show me you're getting these stats that Marvel uses for their characters when writing the stories, cause I don't have them. This is pretty simple, neither Thor nor Hercules could knock Firelord out, how in God's green an virgin earth is Spider-Man doing it make any sense? 'Spidey hit him alot?' Come on, Thor's best shot Con Stunned him, and most of the time he couldn't even do that. Thor's punches are a whole hell of a lot harder than Pete's, I don't care how many times he swings. So, you're just going to repeat yourself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted January 3, 2006 Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever According to Gary he can lift 100 tons if he wants to hard enough. You know, the concept of the "push" was added to Supers games to emulate precisely these kinds of events in comic books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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