Worst comic book superfight ever

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

So he was totally in touch with his Spider sense and knew that Firelord was no longer a threat while he was going Rodney King on him? That despite having a CvK in every other apperance he knew he was beating an unconcious man' date=' and probably would have continued without Cap's intervention?[/quote']

 

The comic makes it pretty clear that Spidey was ticked. Do I have a hard time believing that Spidey would lay in more shots than necessary on a superhumanly tough opponent who had hounded him across the city for the better part of two issues? No. Spidey's gone berserk against bad guys before.

 

If Spidey had beaten someone to death, I'd call that bad writing. Having him snap and punch someone a few more times than is necessary? After what Spidey went through, that shows he's human, and I'd call that good writing.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Wasn't she called something like Golden Granny?

 

Golden Oldie.

[McCoy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

The comic makes it pretty clear that Spidey was ticked. Do I have a hard time believing that Spidey would lay in more shots than necessary on a superhumanly tough opponent who had hounded him across the city for the better part of two issues? No. Spidey's gone berserk against bad guys before.

 

If Spidey had beaten someone to death, I'd call that bad writing. Having him snap and punch someone a few more times than is necessary? After what Spidey went through, that shows he's human, and I'd call that good writing.

I can see Peter being in an altered state, having histerical blindness to his Spider sense, and continuing to beat on an unconcious opponent not realizing he's no longer a threat.

 

I can't see him pounding on an opponent he realizes is unconcious and now harmless, no matter how PO'ed he is. This isn't Ben, Logan or even Thor, notorious for their bad tempers. This is Mr. "With Great Power there must alway come - - Great Responsibility!"

 

Let's go with votes from the floor. Didn't realize fight was over, or intentionally continued to beat an unconcious opponent?

 

Anyone?

 

Bueller?

[McCoy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

To add to this, the artist also doesn't show Firelord swinging back at Spidey,much less doing so several times. However, either he did so or Cap was delusional when he congratulated Spidey, and especially noted that Firelord couldn't lay a hand on him near the end.

 

Did Cap just guiess Firelord wouldn't have hit if he had an opportunity to take a shot, or did he watch Firelord repeatedly miss? Cap doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who makes things up to flatter people, and I expect if anyone can analyze a fight from its visuals, it would be him.

 

 

 

He did strike back. Captain America said so. You callin' Cap a liar, Chuck?

No, Cap said he couldn't lay a hand on him, That can also be interpeted as being out on his feet, incapible of mustering any effective attack.

[Vorsch]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Have no fear for spideys kicking a guy when hes down, as has been noted by others when this action is translated into hero terms (as all comic writers are wont to) Firelords 30+pd prevents him from taking any body damage ever.

 

Spidey and cap are obviously aware of this Heroism of Marvel.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

So instead of a Thing/Hulk/Thor reserve of strength he's never used before or since, you're suggesting he has a find weakness ability that he's never used before or since?

 

Oh Kay --

Please.

 

The case that Andrew and Gary and Hugh and several others hasn't really changed. What has changed is the way you guys choose to try to make it be something else.

 

1. Spider-Man has demonstrated he can put a hurt on guys who can take a typical shot or two from folks like Thor or Hulk.

 

1a. Spidey is stronger than you guys would like to think and can push and has pushed on plenty of occasions.

 

1b. Just because he can put a hurt on someone that can take a typical shot or two from the Hulk or Thor doesn't mean we are arguing that his punches are equivalent to Hulk's or Thor's.

 

2. Spider-Man has demonstrated startling agility and speed and has unleashed a barrage of blows on his opponents.

 

3. Firelord can be put down by Thor with one good hit.

 

4. Firelord has not demonstrated that he is automatically more resistant to phusical blows than folks like the Rhino.

 

5. Spidey can put some hurt on Firelord with an all-out punch.

 

6. Spidey can deliver a barrage of hurtful punches on Firelord and avoid getting hit in return if he really pours it on, enough to KO Firelord.

 

7. It takes more hits from Spidey than Thor to KO Firelord but it can be done.

 

8. Firelord doesn't indiscriminately use area effect attacks to kill annoying supers and half of an inhabited neighborhood and he makes threats he doesn't intend on following through with when he's mad - like most people.

 

9. Firelord is a hothead and doesn't exactly use the best tactics when angry.

 

10. This has all been demonstrated in the comic books.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Golden Oldie.

That's the ticket!

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

No' date=' Cap said he couldn't lay a hand on him, That can also be interpeted as being out on his feet, incapible of mustering any effective attack.[/quote'] Yes, but I don't think he would be congratulating Spidey for that if he was referring to the point at which Firelord was already down. Do you?

[McCoy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

First' date=' Firelord was surprised when Spidey attacked him. He thought he'd put an end to the fight by drawing Spidey out where there was nowhere to hide. He didn't expect to be blitzkrieged.[/quote']

Suprised.

 

After all, if you've shot at someone twenty or thirty times, the very last thing you'd expect them to do is fight back.

 

Especally if your skill set before becomng a Herald of Galactus included being in command of a starship. I'm sure at the Xandaran Academy tactics was an elective course.

 

OK, big fat hairy deal was made out of the variability of a Herald's defenses being possibly due to a VPP like structure. He didn't have those points in offense, he didn't have them in defese, he sure as heck didn't have them in enhanced senses or smarts. What does he have his points shifted to?

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I can see Peter being in an altered state, having histerical blindness to his Spider sense, and continuing to beat on an unconcious opponent not realizing he's no longer a threat.

 

I can't see him pounding on an opponent he realizes is unconcious and now harmless, no matter how PO'ed he is. This isn't Ben, Logan or even Thor, notorious for their bad tempers. This is Mr. "With Great Power there must alway come - - Great Responsibility!"

 

Let's go with votes from the floor. Didn't realize fight was over, or intentionally continued to beat an unconcious opponent?

 

Anyone?

 

Bueller?

 

Why do you keep tying "berserk" to "ignoring his Spider-Sense?" You haven't demonstrated that the two go hand in hand.

 

You ever react to something without thinking? Spidey does that with his Spider-Sense. It's even gotten him into trouble before. If it tingles, he usually reacts to it instinctively.

 

So the fact that it stopped sending him signals and he kept hitting Firelord doesn't show he was blind to his Spider-Sense. It shows he was still acting instinctively, and his angry, frustrated instincts were telling him to hit the powerhouse who had been trying to kill him.

[McCoy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Why do you keep tying "berserk" to "ignoring his Spider-Sense?" You haven't demonstrated that the two go hand in hand.

 

You ever react to something without thinking? Spidey does that with his Spider-Sense. It's even gotten him into trouble before. If it tingles, he usually reacts to it instinctively.

 

So the fact that it stopped sending him signals and he kept hitting Firelord doesn't show he was blind to his Spider-Sense. It shows he was still acting instinctively, and his angry, frustrated instincts were telling him to hit the powerhouse who had been trying to kill him.

So you are saying that he was aware of his Spider sense, and continues intentionally beating on an opponent he knows is KO'ed.

 

That's one vote for Peter kicking his opponent while down.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Suprised.

 

After all, if you've shot at someone twenty or thirty times, the very last thing you'd expect them to do is fight back.

 

 

The quote "You dare!?" from Firelord shows that he couldn't quite credit what he was seeing.

 

It's all on the page.

 

 

Especally if your skill set before becomng a Herald of Galactus included being in command of a starship. I'm sure at the Xandaran Academy tactics was an elective course.

 

OK, big fat hairy deal was made out of the variability of a Herald's defenses being possibly due to a VPP like structure. He didn't have those points in offense, he didn't have them in defese, he sure as heck didn't have them in enhanced senses or smarts. What does he have his points shifted to?

 

This isn't an argument I've been pursuing, but if I were, I'd theorize that Firelord largely shut off his Power Cosmic when he was playing possum, to make it more convincing.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

So you are saying that he was aware of his Spider sense, and continues intentionally beating on an opponent he knows is KO'ed.

 

 

Reading comprehension isn't a strength of yours, is it? No wonder there's so much disagreement here.

 

I didn't answer your loaded question, I denied the false dichotomy you constructed. He can *both* react to his Spider-Sense *and* not consciously realize when Firelord was down.

 

Which is exactly what the page demonstrates happening.

[McCoy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

The quote "You dare!?" from Firelord shows that he couldn't quite credit what he was seeing.

 

It's all on the page.

So is his threat to level the city. So he means exactly what he says when it supports the people saying he hasn't been jobbed, but when it supports those of us saying he has been jobbed he's exaggerating or doesn't mean it.

 

Nothing like a level playing field. And this is nothing like a level playing field.

[McCoy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Reading comprehension isn't a strength of yours, is it? No wonder there's so much disagreement here.

 

I didn't answer your loaded question, I denied the false dichotomy you constructed. He can *both* react to his Spider-Sense *and* not consciously realize when Firelord was down.

 

Which is exactly what the page demonstrates happening.

Nope.

 

He knew what he was doing. Or he didn't. No third alternative.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

He knew what he was doing. Or he didn't. No third alternative.

 

And that's the very definition of a false dichotomy. Pretending alternatives don't exist.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

So is his threat to level the city. So he means exactly what he says when it supports the people saying he hasn't been jobbed, but when it supports those of us saying he has been jobbed he's exaggerating or doesn't mean it.

 

Nothing like a level playing field. And this is nothing like a level playing field.

 

Nothing like shifting your argument when your points are dismantled.

 

Firelord was a friend to Hercules and Thor at the time this issue was published, and you want to claim that he would be willing to mass murder innocents to get at Spidey?

 

He also said he wanted Thor dead in that scan I showed from Thor 306. Always follows through on his threats, does he?

 

I'm not sure why I'm bothering anymore. You're being so disingenous that I'm convinced you *know* it, and are now simply trolling. Pretending that a boastful threat and an exclamation of surprise must be treated as having equal sincerity is just stupid. It's like saying "I should kill you for that!" and "Ow, my foot!" must be treated as equivalent statements.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

We have a basic difference of opinion here, then.

 

Continuity is the only thing that makes serial fiction worth reading. If you don't have continuity, you don't have serial fiction -- you have episodic fiction, where each story has no or very little connection to what came before or after, save for recurring protagonists and antagonists. Like, you know, the PowerPuff Girls.

 

As for continuity's place in serial fictoin -- to quote Lester del Rey, noted SF author and publisher:

 

"When anything can happen, who gives a ****?"

 

Fictional universes need to have ground rules. Those ground rules do not have to be (and most often are not) the same ground rules as the real world, but *whatever* rules they pick for themselves, they then must honestly remain within those picks.

 

Likewise, continuity is important in the historical sense precisely because it helps establish history. Spider-Man isn't important to us because we only started reading last week, after all. Spidey is important to us because he has a history, a long rich and involved one. We have known his story, and we like his story.

 

Not having continuity would mean that none of that backstory mattered two cents, because it would be ignored or warped at the whim of the week.

 

Other characters have stories too, and histories.

 

Far from continuity being the bane of serial fiction, it's the *lifes' blood* of serial fiction. It is the structure, the framework, the consistent underlying meta-reality that the individual stories are set against, and by that structure, they combine to become something greater than the sum of their parts.

 

*Or* they smash together in an inconsistent, arbitrary, kludgey mess because the editors and writers don't give a crap.

 

Which one you prefer is up to you. Me, I'll take not so much the kludgey one as the other thing.

First, nothing I indicated in this speculative storyline actually violates continuity, a point you seem to miss.

 

Second, you haven't really answered, then, if this approach invalidates the various Batman (and any other) great stories told.

 

I'm suggesting continuity plays a role, but isn't the be-all and end-all, lest we become subject to something virtually impossible, anyway, over 50 years of storytelling.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

You want Spidey to be a suicidal guy with hysterical paralysis, go right ahead. What you can't do is argue for Spidey to have what are, in fact, serious psychological disorders, and then claim that they aren't. Masked suicidal depression and hysterical paralysis ain't the pink of mental health, and that's all there is to it.

 

(add) Have you considered the latest SENTRY limited series? The guy's the most powerful meta on Earth -- and he's also got severe MPD, to the point where his arch-enemy is actually just his own subconscious, and when he thinks he's talking to that arch-enemy in his prison cell in the Secret Sanctum, it's actually just him talking to a mirror. Oh, but he tries to overcome all this to still be a hero. Well, this plus the other basketload of issues that has him seeing a psychotherapist on a regular basis, of which I have neither the time nor the desire to itemize.

 

You should find it very inspiring. Me? I'm wishing for the old days when heroes were people who were, you know, sane. Maybe not *entirely* sane (God knows Batman has his own problems, for example), but at least stable enough that you didn't want to have to put them on medication and inpatient counseling.

You obviously don't want to answer what I've posed, since my very point was Spiderman was not suicidal and was in fact quite the opposite.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

One further data point that I got from a friend. In Amazing Spiderman 32 and 33' date=' Spiderman was trapped beneath a gigantic cast iron weight. It was [b']at least[/b] 10' by 10' by 10' according to my friend based on estimated size compared to Spiderman. 1000 cubic feet (which is a conservative estimate) of solid iron would be about 240 tons weight. Spiderman himself estimated that it outweighed a locomotive.

 

And an already hurt Spiderman manages to lift that weight off the ground because he needed to get a serum for Aunt May and free himself.

 

So when Spiderman pushes, he's able to go well beyond what a standard push would allow.

 

Does anyone out there have access to scans of those 2 issues?

This is the famous moment I was referring to earlier in discussing his own volatile powr range. It's one of the most famous moments in comic history.

 

But I think the scan issue is one of copyright. There must be a version online but it's a bit late for me to rush off to check it, sorry.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

1) I think its a bad story because the underdog doesn't win through guile, or guts, or heart. He wins by suddenly being strong enough to beat the guy unconcious with his bare fists, which by all previous examples by both parties he shouldn't be. Its not about continuity, its about consistancy.

 

2) I've yet to see a Herald's power 'fluctuate' from 'trade punches with Thor' to 'get knocked the F- out by Peter Parker' in any other instance besides this one. Even at the previously shown lowest levels a herald was well above Pete.

As stated, he won through determination against an arrogant villain who chose not to exert himself appropriately, acting rashly. As discussed, one of Spiderman's greatest moments was his grit and determination as opposed to wits in a more important story prior to this.

 

However, I respect the reason you dislike this fight - from an iconic perspective, I think your argument makes sense - it avoids fanboy silliness about consistency. So I understand that, even though I respectfully disagree as I feel it still exploits the icon in a different but still appropriate manner.

 

BTW, as a side note on fanboyish consistency, I think it's a key point that Firelord came down for pizza. Clearly he was not prepared with his "VPP" anyway, and to boot underestimated Spiderman.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

To add to this, the artist also doesn't show Firelord swinging back at Spidey,much less doing so several times. However, either he did so or Cap was delusional when he congratulated Spidey, and especially noted that Firelord couldn't lay a hand on him near the end.

 

Did Cap just guiess Firelord wouldn't have hit if he had an opportunity to take a shot, or did he watch Firelord repeatedly miss? Cap doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who makes things up to flatter people, and I expect if anyone can analyze a fight from its visuals, it would be him.

 

 

 

He did strike back. Captain America said so. You callin' Cap a liar, Chuck?

Excellent catch re Captain's comments!

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I prefer to think of it as firing 1000 7.62mm minigun rounds into the front armor slope of an Abrams, myself. But yes.

 

Maybe Spidey's fists are Penetrating? He picked up the Rock-Smashing Fist at Yengtao Temple, you see...

In theory, Spiderman would get in some martial attacks that are NNDs or Penetrating, similar to Batman, but I'm not positive on this as it's rarely commented on that Spiderman hits joints and weak spots in the way it's commented on re Batman. So it's tenuous.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Side note - so are some saying that Spiderman would necessarily lose to Thor? Personally, I really doubt that, for all of Thor's power. Spiderman is pretty darn clever himself and able to avoid getting hit a long, long time.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Oh, I'm sure it happened. Hulk has also been choked out by a snake, and Wolverine survived being hit with a nuke too.

 

You really have no problem with Pete lifting 100 tons? After 40+ years of him being not nearly that strong?

 

Well, there's really no point in arguing then.

This massive weight lift is from the old days. And as stated it's one of his most quoted stories. And generally seen as one of the finer moments. It's not one of m favorites, but it is as canon as canon gets, right or wrong.