Worst comic book superfight ever

[KA.]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Spider-Man's a lot more complicated than that.

 

But no one understands him like his woman.

 

Oh, wait, that's not Spider-Man, that's Shaft!

 

And if you don't think Shaft could knock out Firelord, then you are crazy!

 

KA.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Um, the Pre-Crisis era was specifically noted for being episodic, not serial. They had "Imaginary Stories" all the time, and whenever one comic contradicted another and it *wasn't* an 'Imaginary Story', they explained it simply by saying that the different comics were on different timelines. Continuity was something they treated as optional at best and nonexistent at worst.

 

Strict serial continuity didn't *exist* for DC until after the Crisis on Infinite Earths -- that was the entire point of the first Crisis, to collapse all the divergent timelines into one! (Which, yes, required retconning the crap out of a lot of things. That's why anything from Pre-Crisis comics is not considered to *be* in continuity anymore, unless later affirmed by a Post-Crisis flashback... DC literally rebooted and re-formatted their entire cosmos.)

 

So no, they do not 'invalidate' the point that serial fiction requires continuity to *be* serial fiction, because the Pre-Crisis DCU *wasn't* serial fiction, it was episodic fiction.

It's clear that the large arcs of DCdom were serialized, and it's clear large arcs of Marvel were, though I entirely and fully grant that Marvel made a higher priority of consistency than DC. Between arcs we've had ongoing retcons and rewrites in both officialdoms. Within those arcs we've had exceptional stories and retcons as well. Within DC a lack of continuity certainly occurred, but this was mostly evolving, and I don't think you can say then that Marvel didn't also evolve. The Batman changes from the 40s to 50s to 60s to 70s all occurred gradually, with no clear delineation in where the "new continuity" was beginning.

 

Regardless, then, what are the boundaries you are positing? You sound like you are saying if a company indicates its stories are not all continuity-aimed that this is okay, then. Well, Marvel did this via the No Prize as brought up earlier. I think your stance on this doesn't really end up telling anyone if continuity matters at all, in the end, since Marvel's own policy was set up to answer your very challenge to continuity explicitly. And, coming full circle, since we can "imagine" the No Prize for this Spiderman-Firelord thing, it suddenly becomes justified. Not even I would try to force this logic on you - I am simply pointing out your justification for changes in Batman by virtue of saying "DC doesn't have to be continuity-obsessed because it chooses not to be" suffers if applied to Marvel since Marvel chose its own out for this, one which works much of the time but is - I would agree with you - flimsy as a device.

[CBikle]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

... as an advisory, not a setter of hard limits. Hell, even the OHOTMU itself gave every power in terms of estimates and generalities, not in hard-and-fast #'s. Which is why it's useless for setting absolutes.

 

There were no "hard limits" but those entries were used as loose benchmarks for powers, power-levels, etc.

 

There was enough leeway given, so that, oh , let's say a writer had an idea for a fight between Spidey and Firelord...

 

See where I'm going with this ?

 

For all intents and purposes, the OHOTMU was "official". That's what the first "O" in OHOTMU stands for.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Even subtracting the death wish' date=' hysterical paralysis is still no sign of mental health. I don't feel it necessary to load down characters I like with any more mental issues than the ones they already got, and in some cases, I could wish they already got less.[/quote']

I'm not so sure it's much different. Anyway, it's just a speculative story idea, and it actually complements the continuity, explaining the times we've seen Spiderman's brute force spike unusually.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Problem -- as mentioned before, arrogance is Firelord's default state of mind, and it's never affected his power selection before.

 

Not to mention that there is absolutely zero evidence that Firelord's defenses require 'turning on'.

So when he perceives an inferior opponent he wouldn't hold back? I thought this was indicated before?

 

As to the defenses, it remains a valid question. Has anyone seen Firelord been punched by a clearly-inferior opponent and have his damage shield down? (Open to all)

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Regardless' date=' then, what are the boundaries you are positing?[/quote']

 

Stripped of all the technicalities, elaborations, and etc. that we seem to be in danger of getting lost in a maze amongst, the essence of my point is this:

 

That contrary to your assertion, continuity is absolutely no hindrance to good storytelling. It's only a hindrance to *inconsistent* storytelling.

 

Note, this is not the same thing as 'stories must have continuity to be good'. (The point I was trying to make was that 'since possessing continuity is the *definition* of serial fiction, it is flawed to say that you can have good *serial* fiction without continuity. It'd be like saying you could have good beachfront property without a beach. Your little forest lot might be good property, but it ain't good *beachfront* property, you get me?) But again, we're risking getting lost in the maze.

 

Suffice it to say, the idea that continuity is a hindrance to good storytelling, absolutely not agreed with. Continuity doesn't even get in the *way* of good storytelling. Its job is to get in the way of *bad* (i.e. -- inconsistent) storytelling.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

So when he perceives an inferior opponent he wouldn't hold back? I thought this was indicated before?

 

Precisely how does one "hold back" one's PD?

 

And remember, still absolutely no indication that Firelord's defenses require conscious activation. (Well, his Damage Shield does, but I'm referring here to is PD, Armor, etc.)

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Actually, I know Chuckg from another board. (the previously mentioned Comic Book Rumbles board, where all we do is argue about which comic book character would beat another comic book character. This is far from as geeky as I can get:) )

 

While Chuck can be, I think the nice word is 'abrasive':D , I've never known him to be dishonest.

As long as we know where everybody is coming from.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

There were no "hard limits" but those entries were used as loose benchmarks for powers, power-levels, etc.

 

There was enough leeway given, so that, oh , let's say a writer had an idea for a fight between Spidey and Firelord...

 

See where I'm going with this?

 

Given that even the OHOTMU doesn't support the idea that Spidey can reach Hulk-class levels of power in a crisis situation, no, I don't see where you're going at all. If we used the OHOTMU, Spidey-vs-Firelord still wouldn't make any damn sense. I'm not saying the OHOTMU is non-canon because it doesn't support my point re: Spidey-vs-Firelord -- it does. I'm saying the OHOTMU is non-canon because it doesn't measure up re: doing the job of consistently outlining the limits of Marvel characters, even though that means I have to deny myself a potential line of argument re: SM-vs-FL. It's *not* all about the Spidey-vs-Firelord with me.

 

If you want to continue this, when I get home tonight I'll dig out my OHOTMUs and see exactly what it said for both Firelord and Spidey. I anticipate seeing absolutely nothing that gives credence to the idea that Spidey could beat down Firelord.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

In this instance, if your argument is that Spidey is capable of hurting folks as tough as Firelord, the best approach would be to find instances of times where he has hurt folks as tough as Firelord.

 

Thats a better tac than saying your opposition doesn't know what he's talking about, and far less insulting.

Examples have been provided in this very thread.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Stripped of all the technicalities, elaborations, and etc. that we seem to be in danger of getting lost in a maze amongst, the essence of my point is this:

 

That contrary to your assertion, continuity is absolutely no hindrance to good storytelling. It's only a hindrance to *inconsistent* storytelling.

 

Note, this is not the same thing as 'stories must have continuity to be good'. (The point I was trying to make was that 'since possessing continuity is the *definition* of serial fiction, it is flawed to say that you can have good *serial* fiction without continuity. It'd be like saying you could have good beachfront property without a beach. Your little forest lot might be good property, but it ain't good *beachfront* property, you get me?) But again, we're risking getting lost in the maze.

 

Suffice it to say, the idea that continuity is a hindrance to good storytelling, absolutely not agreed with. Continuity doesn't even get in the *way* of good storytelling. Its job is to get in the way of *bad* (i.e. -- inconsistent) storytelling.

Slavish adherence to continuity does, I would say. But I see that your stance and mine are niether at extremes - I am not saying that continuity is a hindrance to a good story, but that not all good stories about our icons need to be based in continuity, which apparently so are you.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Well, IIR he's never beaten Titania down with his fists, just threw her off a cliff.

 

Same for Rhino far as I know. Rhino is slower than spit and twice as dumb, Pete usually just dances around till Rhino takes himself out.

He's tagged Rhino before. He has also made the Hulk feel pain.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I don't think so. I won't get into who is a bigger jerk than who' date=' but I see undue goading and attacks from both sides.[/quote'] Well no surprise there.

 

I see a big difference between pointing out distortions, even with sarcasm, and making distortions to try to make someone look stupid.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Precisely how does one "hold back" one's PD?

 

And remember, still absolutely no indication that Firelord's defenses require conscious activation. (Well, his Damage Shield does, but I'm referring here to is PD, Armor, etc.)

Re holding back, I was referring just to offensive power - which would allow Spiderman to close and get many hits in.

 

As to the defenses, it still sounds up in the air to me re what level his PD is and whether Spiderman can rapidly fire off and get a lot of STUN in against his unmodified (non-DS) native defenses, and I'm not clear if his defenses are boosted when he fights Thor and Hercules, but the power cosmic bit seems arbitrary enough to suggest it's a strong possibility. What data exists on this?

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

But no one understands him like his woman.

 

Oh, wait, that's not Spider-Man, that's Shaft!

 

And if you don't think Shaft could knock out Firelord, then you are crazy!

 

KA.

Shaft? He's one bad...

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Given that even the OHOTMU doesn't support the idea that Spidey can reach Hulk-class levels of power in a crisis situation, no, I don't see where you're going at all. If we used the OHOTMU, Spidey-vs-Firelord still wouldn't make any damn sense. I'm not saying the OHOTMU is non-canon because it doesn't support my point re: Spidey-vs-Firelord -- it does. I'm saying the OHOTMU is non-canon because it doesn't measure up re: doing the job of consistently outlining the limits of Marvel characters, even though that means I have to deny myself a potential line of argument re: SM-vs-FL. It's *not* all about the Spidey-vs-Firelord with me.

 

If you want to continue this, when I get home tonight I'll dig out my OHOTMUs and see exactly what it said for both Firelord and Spidey. I anticipate seeing absolutely nothing that gives credence to the idea that Spidey could beat down Firelord.

I don't think CKBible was weighing in against you, I think he was weighing in as to the role of the Official Handbook. I could be wrong...but his posts doesn't seem to read otherwise to me.

 

I think the "Official" Handbook has very little to do with the vagaries of power levels in Marvel storytelling, myself, despite what Marvel may have said at that time.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Shaft? He's one bad...

Shut yo' mouth!

[Snake Gandhi]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

He has also made the Hulk feel pain.

Yeah, but so have Cap and Daredevil.

 

I think both of those are kinda silly myself, but things like that make it tough to use singular occasions as good indicators of a characters power level.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

As to the defenses' date=' it still sounds up in the air to me re what level his PD is and whether Spiderman can rapidly fire off and get a lot of STUN in against his unmodified (non-DS) native defenses, and I'm not clear if his defenses are boosted when he fights Thor and Hercules, but the power cosmic bit seems arbitrary enough to suggest it's a strong possibility. What data exists on this?[/quote']

 

The data that exists is that only one of Galactus' Heralds, out of them all, has ever clearly shown a variable level of physical defense -- and that's the Silver Surfer.

 

Not so coincidentally, he's the only one of Galactus' Heralds who has an unrestricted cosmic VPP, the remainder being strictly "themed" powersets. The Surfer is, and always has been, clearly head and shoulders above his brethren, both in magnitude of power and versatility of abilities.

 

Also, whenever the Surfer has used his VPP to augment his defenses, either he or the narration has specifically announced that he's doing so. ("And now I shall increase my physical power... to atomic strength!" ... no, honestly, the Surfer's actually said stuff like that. Hokey, huh?) So even with the Surfer, it's a rare enough thing that the writer and artist specifically point out it when it's happening. Notice that no such indicators are ever given for Firelord.

 

There are no data points that all the rest of Galactus' Heralds operate this way, especially given the trouble shown to outline the Surfer as a prodigy even among Heralds.

 

Add -- notice also that the Surfer's *unaugmented* defenses have made attacks from an enraged Mindless Hulk go *boink*, and proven so high that he was actually unable to notice that She-Hulk was attacking him! This is /without/ him VPP boosting, mind you! Then again, Silver Surfer, him tougher than Firelord. Him tougher than a whole lotta people.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Precisely how does one "hold back" one's PD?

 

And remember, still absolutely no indication that Firelord's defenses require conscious activation. (Well, his Damage Shield does, but I'm referring here to is PD, Armor, etc.)

The indication is sometimes Firelord gets hurt by attacks that don't hurt him at other times. Based on my read of Silver Surfer and his use of the Power Cosmic, it is analogous to a VPP bolstering his defenses.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I think the "Official" Handbook has very little to do with the vagaries of power levels in Marvel storytelling' date=' myself, despite what Marvel may have said at that time.[/quote']

 

Agreed, which is why I wasn't using it.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

The indication is sometimes Firelord gets hurt by attacks that don't hurt him at other times. Based on my read of Silver Surfer and his use of the Power Cosmic' date=' it is analogous to a VPP bolstering his defenses.[/quote']

Where else is this supported than this comic?

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Slavish adherence to continuity does' date=' I would say. But I see that your stance and mine are niether at extremes [...']

 

Notice that I have repeatedly said that I would forgive minor inconsistencies if the writing was high enough quality, and given several examples where I have done exactly that.

 

The key word, however, is *MINOR*. It is not "slavish" adherence to continuity to insist that *HUGE* inconsistencies be avoided, and, well, see "Spider-Man-vs-Firelord".

 

So you are correct, we are not entirely at odds -- we simply differ on whether or not One Certain Fight was a minor or a major lapse of continuity.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Yeah, but so have Cap and Daredevil.

 

I think both of those are kinda silly myself, but things like that make it tough to use singular occasions as good indicators of a characters power level.

the problem is they aren't singular occasions. When Chuckg has demanded proof of these sorts of claims, Hugh and Andrew and Gary have been able to provide them.

 

Chuckg's argument is that Spidey's beatdown of Firelord is inconsistent with his past actions. I don't agree based on the fact that it's relatively easy to find evidence of Spidey doing things that go beyond the description of Spidey's capabilities that Chuckg, and I think you, claim. Given that Spidey isn't inconsistent.

 

If the argument is that you guys don't like the fight because you think Spidey shouldn't be able to do something he has been depicted doing in a healthy number of stories over the years - that's your prerogative. But telling me that I have to ignore a healthy number of stories because it conflicts with your vision of Spidey is a bit much.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Where else is this supported than this comic?

 

Also, Agent X is making the logical error that Firelord and the Silver Surfer have identical or closely similar powersets, when such is absolutely nowhere near the case. Firelord does cosmic flame and energy effects (along with the generic spaceflight, life supports, and enhanced physical stats that are the common Herald package), and that's about it. The Surfer's done everything from molecular transmutation to shapeshifting to turning things into 'living energy' and turning them back... and Doom using the Surfer's power has gone even further, to the point of making time run backwards, conjuring glaciers into existence in Hawaii, and raising the dead.