Worst comic book superfight ever

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Where else is this supported than this comic?

There was a Silver Surfer discussion sometime ago in the thread. My interpretation of the Silver Surfer is that he isn't 100% invulnerable to any attack an Avenger throws at him and that he's bolstering his defenses with the Power Cosmic. If that's how he works, it's not much of a leap to suggest that's how Firelord works to explain how his defenses apply.

 

I think that's plenty plausible enough. Frankly, that so many are able to provide reasons for that fight to go down as it did makes me wonder why anyone would claim it's an obvious violation of what defines Spider-Man's capabilities.

[Snake Gandhi]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

the problem is they aren't singular occasions. When Chuckg has demanded proof of these sorts of claims' date=' Hugh and Andrew and Gary have been able to provide them.[/quote']What evidence? There where claims he beat up Titania, but every account so far shows him using the environment to do that, not just punches to the head.

 

Rhino? Again, I don't recall Pete ever physically beating Rhino into unconsciousness like he did Firelord.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Also' date=' Agent X is making the logical error that Firelord and the Silver Surfer have identical or closely similar powersets, when such is absolutely nowhere near the case. Firelord does cosmic flame and energy effects (along with the generic spaceflight, life supports, and enhanced physical stats that are the common Herald package), and that's about it. The Surfer's done everything from molecular transmutation to shapeshifting to turning things into 'living energy' and turning them back... and Doom using the Surfer's power has gone even further, to the point of making time run backwards, conjuring glaciers into existence in Hawaii, and raising the dead.[/quote'] Chuckg is the same guy who was using Silver Surfer's powerset to "illuminate" how Firelord's powers work earlier.

[McCoy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Re holding back' date=' I was referring just to offensive power - which would allow Spiderman to close and get many hits in.[/quote']

Really seems out of character for a character known for temper and anger management problems to hold back in combat, especally one that started because he feels he has been unjustly attacked.

 

[edit: it's been argued that he is so furious that he cannot think tactically, yet is holding back. Seems inconsistant.]

 

If the damage shield is part of Firelord's VPP analog (speculation), we've seen the points can be shifted rather rapidly.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

What evidence? There where claims he beat up Titania, but every account so far shows him using the environment to do that, not just punches to the head.

 

Rhino? Again, I don't recall Pete ever physically beating Rhino into unconsciousness like he did Firelord.

And yet, there are scans on this very thread showing him putting a hurt on Rhino and the Hulk. And that's enough. There are also scans showing feats of strength by Spider-Man, over the decades, that are greater than the OHOTMU suggests.

 

If you guys don't like it, that's cool. But it isn't inconsistent with the character.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Really seems out of character for a character known for temper and anger management problems to hold back in combat, especally one that started because he feels he has been unjustly attacked.

 

If the damage shield is part of Firelord's VPP analog (speculation), we've seen the points can be shifted rather rapidly.

You guys were asked to provide examples of that damage shield being used on people some time ago.

[gregghelmberger]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Getting away from the Spidey-Firelord fight (for the love of God, PLEASE!):

 

Has anyone yet mentioned the fight waaaaaaaaaaaaay back in Avengers #4, when the Incredible Hulk was knocked out cold by Ant Man when Ant Man convinced a bunch of ants to tunnel underneath the Hulk and drop him into a very shallow hole? That wouldn't even knock me out, for pity's sake.

[McCoy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

You guys were asked to provide examples of that damage shield being used on people some time ago.

I sold my collection decades ago. Someone else will have to provide that. But I was referring to the acknowledged use of the damage shield against the train in ASM 270.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Has anyone yet mentioned the fight waaaaaaaaaaaaay back in Avengers #4' date=' when the Incredible Hulk was knocked out cold by Ant Man when Ant Man convinced a bunch of ants to tunnel underneath the Hulk and drop him into a very shallow hole? That wouldn't even knock [i']me[/i] out, for pity's sake.

 

The Hulk? Knocked out? By falling into a shallow hole?

 

 

... we can all stop now, folks, ain't NOTHIN' ever topping this.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I sold my collection decades ago. Someone else will have to provide that. But I was referring to the acknowledged use of the damage shield against the train in ASM 270.

The point folks made earlier is that he doesn't use it against people.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

The Hulk? Knocked out? By falling into a shallow hole?

 

 

... we can all stop now, folks, ain't NOTHIN' ever topping this.

Yeah, that sounds pretty stupid.

[Snake Gandhi]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

And yet, there are scans on this very thread showing him putting a hurt on Rhino and the Hulk. And that's enough. There are also scans showing feats of strength by Spider-Man, over the decades, that are greater than the OHOTMU suggests.

Yes, and Daredevil and Cap have hurt Hulk too. I've seen two seperate fights between Cap and Hulk, one where Cap was hurting the Hulk, and another where Hulk laughed off Cap's best shot.

 

You can provide one instance where Pete can hurt Rhino, yet there are many more where he can't. you can provide one instance where Pete can hurt the Hulk, yet there are many more where he can't.

 

Why do those single encounters carry more weight than the multiple encounters that contradict it?

 

And one other thing,

 

There are also scans showing feats of strength by Spider-Man, over the decades, that are greater than the OHOTMU suggests.

So, you claimed the OHOTMU was the most accurate source of info about the characters, yet these feats that exceed what it says Pete can do are more valid?

[Snake Gandhi]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

The Hulk? Knocked out? By falling into a shallow hole?

 

 

... we can all stop now, folks, ain't NOTHIN' ever topping this.

I don't know, Hulk jobbing to a boa contrictor is pretty bad, but yeah, that might be the worst.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

You'd think the Hulk being knocked out by falling into a <10 foot deep hole would, by itself, be proof positive enough that some canon stories simply cannot be made consistent with other canon stories.

[McCoy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

The point folks made earlier is that he doesn't use it against people.

The point I was making is that if it is part of his VPP (speculation, note the word If), he can switch the VPP rapidly. If his defenses are in a VPP, the explanation given for why they vary, and some STUN is 'leaking through," and he was not stunned by one haymaker or KO'ed by by followup kick, why in the name of Galactus did he not increase his defenses?

 

Only explanation, he is under writer-mandated fiat to ack like a mook.

[McCoy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

And I think that the fact this has gone on so long and so heatedly does bear out my original assertion, that SM v FL is one of the worst comic book superfights ever

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

To nominate one from the Animated DCU:

 

Justice League, Season 1, "War World" IIRC:

 

Mongul's big machine o' doom, that blows up planets.

 

Is seen to blow up a planet on-screen.

 

In the final fight, charges up to destroy a planet.

 

Fires the planet-destroying beam!

 

And is Missile Deflected by... Hawkgirl's mace?!?

 

Granted, this is Animated Hawkgirl's mighty mace o' doom we are talking about here, fit to smash through energy barriers, disrupt magical spells (because it's made out of special antimagical metal), and in general pound lumps on anything she's hit with it. It's a regular mini-Mjolnir.

 

But vs. something equivalent to the Death Star's superlaser? This is a job that Simonson Thor, with the real Mjolnir, would have to really sweat to achieve.

 

And she smacks it down like it was nothing.

 

 

For a show that was normally very excellent with consistency, this is perhaps the largest of their rare lapses, and it was so very large indeed.

[Snake Gandhi]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

To nominate one from the Animated DCU:

 

Justice League, Season 1, "War World" IIRC:

 

Mongul's big machine o' doom, that blows up planets.

 

Is seen to blow up a planet on-screen.

 

In the final fight, charges up to destroy a planet.

 

Fires the planet-destroying beam!

 

And is Missile Deflected by... Hawkgirl's mace?!?

 

Granted, this is Animated Hawkgirl's mighty mace o' doom we are talking about here, fit to smash through energy barriers, disrupt magical spells (because it's made out of special antimagical metal), and in general pound lumps on anything she's hit with it. It's a regular mini-Mjolnir.

 

But vs. something equivalent to the Death Star's superlaser? This is a job that Simonson Thor, with the real Mjolnir, would have to really sweat to achieve.

 

And she smacks it down like it was nothing.

 

 

For a show that was normally very excellent with consistency, this is perhaps the largest of their rare lapses, and it was so very large indeed.

Eh, the first season especially was full of that, especially in regards to Superman.

 

I love, in the pilot 2 parter, everyone but Batman (who's assumed dead) is captured and their hands are stuck to the floor with some goop. Batman invariably arrives to resuce them, and uses his laser to cut the goop away from I believe GL's hands. Superman then looks down and uses his heat-vision to free his own hands.

 

Because if Batman hadn't shown up Superman would have forgotten he had heat vision?

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Didn't Batman free them by sticking a bomb on the alien gizmo that was making the goop super-hard? And only after that did lasers and heat vision work?

 

(Either that, or he turned off the machine that kept sunlight from reaching the room, and remember, Animated Pale Martians and their bio-tech fold up like vampires in sunlight.)

 

ISTR it being one of those two, but I'm not sure.

[ShinDangaioh]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Ah no. Superman was weakend due to fighting. Once some unblocked sunlight made it to him, he started going back up in strength. That does include regaining his heat vision.

 

As to Hawkgirl's mace? I can't argue that.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Well, yeah, the Animated Pale Martians had kept sunlight from reaching Earth (or large chunks of Earth, at least) for what, up to a week at that point? Between that and the trying to fight off of an entire army of Martian walkers, Superman was tapped out on the ol' END Reserve. The Animated version definitely were solar-powered... this weren't the only instance where a couple days away from yellow sunlight reduced him to mortal levels.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Notice that I have repeatedly said that I would forgive minor inconsistencies if the writing was high enough quality, and given several examples where I have done exactly that.

 

The key word, however, is *MINOR*. It is not "slavish" adherence to continuity to insist that *HUGE* inconsistencies be avoided, and, well, see "Spider-Man-vs-Firelord".

 

So you are correct, we are not entirely at odds -- we simply differ on whether or not One Certain Fight was a minor or a major lapse of continuity.

That and it appears to me that you are okay with graphic novels and stories set in different/non-continuities and yet those can be equally canon/canon-bound in terms of the character (not the historical events themselves).

[Guest Suleyman Rashid]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I don't see where either side has the right to say the other one is being dishonest or foolish on the whole. As I said in response to one of your "opponents'" personalized comments.

 

The right to believe in something foolish does not stop that thing from being foolish, and while we're talking about rights, I have every right to think that someone I see as believing something foolish is being foolish.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Zornwil -- actually, things that are out of continuity -- Elseworlds, Imaginary Stories, What-Ifs, etc. -- are much less useful for benchmarking people than are stories set in the 'mainline' of a given character's continuity. Indeed, a lot of the time, they're not useful at all, or useful as indirect indicators at best.

 

For example -- in EXILES #8, Mimic easily schooled an alt-timeline version of Captain America. I would not use this as proof that Mimic would as easily school the /regular/ Captain America, due to the significant experience differences between the one dude and the main timeline dude.

 

I /would/ use it as proof -- here's the "indirect" thing -- that *if* Mimic could hit Cap with a solid optic blast to the face, then Cap would be knocked kicking -- the alt-timeline Cap was physically around as buff as regular Cap, and Mimic's optic blast is half as powerful as Cyclops', optic blast, which can destroy small mountains when really pushed to its limit. However, taking into account the differences across timelines, odds are somewhat less that Mimic would *deliver* that hit to the real Cap.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Also' date=' Agent X is making the logical error that Firelord and the Silver Surfer have identical or closely similar powersets, when such is absolutely nowhere near the case. Firelord does cosmic flame and energy effects (along with the generic spaceflight, life supports, and enhanced physical stats that are the common Herald package), and that's about it. The Surfer's done everything from molecular transmutation to shapeshifting to turning things into 'living energy' and turning them back... and Doom using the Surfer's power has gone even further, to the point of making time run backwards, conjuring glaciers into existence in Hawaii, and raising the dead.[/quote']

But wouldn't one think that Silver Surfer represents a much greater herald than Firelord and likely to be "better"? At least my impression is that Silver Surfer is the ultra-cool guy who is far above. But of course that doesn't mean that Firelord's defenses would necessarily be variable - that would be good to know from elsewhere. Then again, given the fluctuation of cosmic power, I tend to think those characters are intentionally "flexible"/variable/inconsistent, that it's a major limitation of their power.