Worst comic book superfight ever

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

You have to admit' date=' it's pretty funny that you and Gary are on ignore yet it's easy to get ChuckG to respond just by quoting you![/quote']

 

The quotes of their posts tend to leave out the snide and the flamage and distill their points down to the salient bits only -- and said snide and flamage is exactly what they went on my Ignore List for me to avoid.

 

Besides, if I *don't* respond to their posts even after they're mirrored specifically for me to see, I'm 'ignoring their valid points'. But if I *do* respond, I'm 'not sincere about ignoring them'. You want to rig it so that it's heads-they-win-and-tails-I-lose, no matter which choice I make it's still wrong? Feh. I say again, feh.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Spider-Man is quick though. And Firelord isn't. And that means they can use that 'artistic convention' to demonstrate a rain of blows.

But that artistic convention was ratified in 1968 to indicate "Only speedsters may now qualify for implications of many unarticulated or not fully articualted actions in one panel." it's in Paragraph VII, Section E. of the Artist's Convention. ChuckG wins because this story occurs after Section E's revision...

 

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

OK, now you're *definitely* posting just to mock and annoy people.

 

What's the word for that again? Hint -- mythological creature, lives under bridges.

 

Zornwil, you're really not helping with this kind of stuff. If you can't be serious, then just be an amused bystander, not a deliberate goad.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

BTW, I'm curious...

 

... if we assumed, for the sake of argument, that the Spidey-vs-Firelord fight went on longer than was shown, how many extra punches do you think Spidey got?

 

Was that fight really... 15 punches long, not 10? 20 punches? 30? 50? 100? A million?

 

Ballpark figure. What are you guys thinking?

No idea. I would wild guess probably several dozen landed prior to the point of Firelord's inability to respond, with about 5-15 being large blows that did significant STUN prior to Firelord going into deficit.

 

By the way, I may have missed it, did you answer the question I posted a couple times to you about HERO combat and do you assume that the only blows delivered are those reflected by to-hit and damage rolls? This is a pure curiousity question about how you view HERO combat. I'm not saying it has any applicability to this. I am genuinely curious.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

BTW, best strength feat for Thor that I know of...

 

DAMAGE CONTROL (correction) #1. In this, Thor is squatting, on his shoulders, half the weight of the (correction)(*) George Washington Bridge. (The supports on one end, totally got shot out in a superfight -- Thor is holding up one end of the bridge by himself while the construction crews run around to get some bracing back under the end of it.)

 

This is a useful high-end benchmark because in this, Thor specifically notes that he's starting to get really tired, and would they please hurry up and finish before he drops the damn thing? i.e. -- we can see he's close to his top limit. OTOH, by this point, he's also been holding the bridge up for, IIRC, around fifteen minutes, so it's still enormously impressive.

 

Can anybody here imagine Spidey even holding up a *tenth* of this? Note -- even *if* we accept the scans that have been posted as not being SM-vs-FL material themselves, the weights involved in them (Doc Ock's big metal lab equipment thingy, chunk of Penn Station, etc.) are nowhere near one-zillionth of half the entire bleedin' George Washington Bridge.

 

 

 

(*) Yes, that's two corrections. When you're working from memory, it happens. *shrug*

A tenth? Sure, no question in my mind. A tenth. I'm not sure how far this ability extends. I'd find half to be unlikely, but it's really hard to say as Spiderman's lift is quite wonky.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

By the way' date=' I may have missed it, did you answer the question I posted a couple times to you about HERO combat and do you assume that the only blows delivered are those reflected by to-hit and damage rolls?[/quote']

 

Yes. My view is, if I want a game that 'abstracts' combat, where one roll reprseents the aggregate effect of an entire exchange of blows and misses, I should go back to D&D.

 

Besides, the game itself says that a Segment is 1 second long, so where the heck is there *time* for extended fight seqences inside a single roll? 5e and USPD already tell me how to model speedster 'rain of blows' punches, and it's not compatible with a 'this one attack and damage roll actually abstracts a lot of different punches' approach.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Given his history and his win/loss' date=' there's something to be said for classifying Firelord as "The Cosmic Powered Mook with a Stick". Vast reserves of power, but no real success in applying it.[/quote']

What do you mean? Firelord wins all the time. Well, some of the time. He wins about as much as Rhino, anyway...

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

A tenth? Sure' date=' no question in my mind. A [b']tenth[/b].

 

A tenth of half the George Washington Bridge?

 

Hint -- go back and look at the Penn Station scan. Note the chunk of concrete wreckage that Spidey is straining his absolute max to lift.

 

Notice that it's about one-millionth the size of the entire GW Bridge, not 1/20th of it.

 

The idea that Spidey could lift even a tenth of half the GW Bridge (i.e. -- 1/20th of the bridge) is ludicrous. He'd be just as likely to pick up an entire 20-story building on his shoulders. It's well beyond even his *MOST* generous lifting feats. Hell, it's well beyond his greatest lifting feat ever.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

No, I am making the case that inconsistencies exist in comics, which means that any defense of SM-vs-FL based on 'It happened, we have to accept it!' -- such as, oh, yours -- therefore does not hold up.

 

SM-vs-FL is stupid writing. It is not, however, the *ONLY* stupid writing. I make nobody's case but my own.

That's not what you said earlier. You said you accepted a certain level of inconsistency. Therefore, the question you at least were concentrating on was that this was beyond a certain level of acceptibility.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

That's not what you said earlier. You said you accepted a certain level of inconsistency. Therefore' date=' the question you at least were concentrating on was that this was beyond a certain level of acceptibility.[/quote']

 

Yes. The level of inconsistency I would accept was specified as 'mild'.

 

SM-vs-FL is 'mild' in no sense of the term.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

The quotes of their posts tend to leave out the snide and the flamage and distill their points down to the salient bits only -- and said snide and flamage is exactly what they went on my Ignore List for me to avoid.

 

Besides, if I *don't* respond to their posts even after they're mirrored specifically for me to see, I'm 'ignoring their valid points'. But if I *do* respond, I'm 'not sincere about ignoring them'. You want to rig it so that it's heads-they-win-and-tails-I-lose, no matter which choice I make it's still wrong? Feh. I say again, feh.

Regardless, what changes about it being funny?

 

If you were...well...consistent then you wouldn't risk being accused of ignoring "evidence". In that event people could just quote that "evidence" if they really wanted to debate and realized you refused to acknowledge the posts of those people. Actually, you are consistent, and since you are it's now accepted that quoting them "should" cause you to react.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

If you were...well...consistent then you wouldn't risk being accused of ignoring "evidence".

 

This presumes that all accusations are always true and are never made for any other reason than being 100% sincere and truthful.

 

During a COMIC BOOK FANBOY ARGUMENT on the INTERNET.

 

For the love of God, at least *TRY* to be serious.

 

Edit -- and weren't you the same guy saying a couple days ago that neither side had any just cause to be accusing the other? Hmmm? And now you're saying that no, they were entirely right to do so?

 

You want inconsistency? Try your mirror.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Yes. The level of inconsistency I would accept was specified as 'mild'.

 

SM-vs-FL is 'mild' in no sense of the term.

I understand, but my point is that if the history of a character demonstrates a swing, that has to be taken into account unless you're going to equally cherry-pick, as has been accused by various people on various sides. What has to be/can be taken out are the wild exceptions, but it seems to me that those are hard to identify in some cases. I'm not saying that your point that this is a wild swing is without merit, but I am simply reiterating that we do know for a fact there is a history of inconsistency around some characters we are relating, and therefore we do have to work through that. If a single Hulk-Rhino story violates this, that's fine. But to Gary's credit it's not a singular issue. To your point, the question remains valid as to what is out of bounds, if we are accepting the notion of number of hits and so on as the way to measure these characters. I don't, but that's a separate issue from the tact you and Gary are on. My commentary along these lines is confined to an assumption, rather than a personal acceptance, of this logic.

[austenandrews]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Spidey totally owns Firelord. Everybody knows it.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

OK, now you're *definitely* posting just to mock and annoy people.

 

What's the word for that again? Hint -- mythological creature, lives under bridges.

 

Zornwil, you're really not helping with this kind of stuff. If you can't be serious, then just be an amused bystander, not a deliberate goad.

I fail to see how that is goading unless you have no sense of humor.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I fail to see how that is goading unless you have no sense of humor.

 

It deliberately wastes time and sidetracks a discussion that's having enough problems staying focused as is.

 

Not to mention that first you insult me, then you trivialize my arguments childishly, and now -- when I politely ask you to stop -- you instead make it *my* fault, becuase I'm 'humorless'?

 

Remember yesterday, when I was hailing Squirrel Girl? And gladly accepting her kicking the crap out of Thanos? If something is genuinely funny, I laugh. No humorless person can see the joke in Squirrel Girl, and yet I did.

 

The reason I'm not laughing at you? 'Cause you aren't being funny. You're just being an ***. You may have started out all civilized when you first got into this thread, but today, you have majorly backslid.

 

So *plonk* you.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

You have to admit' date=' it's pretty funny that you and Gary are on ignore yet it's easy to get ChuckG to respond just by quoting you![/quote'] It's not just funny. It's silly.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

The quotes of their posts tend to leave out the snide and the flamage and distill their points down to the salient bits only -- and said snide and flamage is exactly what they went on my Ignore List for me to avoid.

 

Besides, if I *don't* respond to their posts even after they're mirrored specifically for me to see, I'm 'ignoring their valid points'. But if I *do* respond, I'm 'not sincere about ignoring them'. You want to rig it so that it's heads-they-win-and-tails-I-lose, no matter which choice I make it's still wrong? Feh. I say again, feh.

Paranoia will destroy ya.

 

How about we think it's silly that you put us on ignore, firstly, and secondly that you still respond to us.

 

Nobody's rigging anything on that score.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

But that artistic convention was ratified in 1968 to indicate "Only speedsters may now qualify for implications of many unarticulated or not fully articualted actions in one panel." it's in Paragraph VII, Section E. of the Artist's Convention. ChuckG wins because this story occurs after Section E's revision...

 

You picked up on the weird legalistic assumptions based on etherial thinking too, eh.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

OK, now you're *definitely* posting just to mock and annoy people.

 

What's the word for that again? Hint -- mythological creature, lives under bridges.

 

Zornwil, you're really not helping with this kind of stuff. If you can't be serious, then just be an amused bystander, not a deliberate goad.

How big do you that bridge is as many trolls as you think live under it?

 

Sometimes the troll is the one who accuses others of trolling as it suits them to so accuse.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

A tenth of half the George Washington Bridge?

 

Hint -- go back and look at the Penn Station scan. Note the chunk of concrete wreckage that Spidey is straining his absolute max to lift.

 

Notice that it's about one-millionth the size of the entire GW Bridge, not 1/20th of it.

 

The idea that Spidey could lift even a tenth of half the GW Bridge (i.e. -- 1/20th of the bridge) is ludicrous. He'd be just as likely to pick up an entire 20-story building on his shoulders. It's well beyond even his *MOST* generous lifting feats. Hell, it's well beyond his greatest lifting feat ever.

I'm sure there's no way Spiderman could lift the very loosely somewhere around 50,000 tons or such that 1/10 of 1/2 of the bridge is (couldn't find a precise weight figure for the Geo. Washington bridge but other major huge bridges, such as the Golden Gate, are under a million tons) if it were stated as such, but on the other hand a story in which 10 Spiderman clones hold up 1/2 the bridge sounds about right. Essentially, the notion of Spiderman lifting about a 10th of Thor is basically "about right" in comic book speak but doesn't work in HERO of course. This is why Thor can lift half the Geo. Washington bridge when sources like the Marvel Universe claim a mere few hundred tons as his lift and we know his lift has been variable in the past as well. I don't think you're going to see Marvel claim explicitly that Thor can lift 500,000 tons, but here we are. Or Thor lifting that weight is inconsistent. We see Thor in some print as being able to lift "100 tons" over his head "or more", and this number recurs again and again, due to Marvel pushing it. I'm not at all suggesting their "offical" stats are all that meaningful, but clearly we have a dichotomy again as to what will be said explicitly and what will be represented in stories. What is interesting is that the MU "official" stuff cites Thor as 10x Spiderman's lift. Now, again, dismissnig the numbers as they are all crap in the "official" stuff, this seems consistent as a sense that Spiderman being about 1/10th of Thor.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

It deliberately wastes time and sidetracks a discussion that's having enough problems staying focused as is.

 

Not to mention that first you insult me, then you trivialize my arguments childishly, and now -- when I politely ask you to stop -- you instead make it *my* fault, becuase I'm 'humorless'?

 

Remember yesterday, when I was hailing Squirrel Girl? And gladly accepting her kicking the crap out of Thanos? If something is genuinely funny, I laugh. No humorless person can see the joke in Squirrel Girl, and yet I did.

 

The reason I'm not laughing at you? 'Cause you aren't being funny. You're just being an ***. You may have started out all civilized when you first got into this thread, but today, you have majorly backslid.

 

So *plonk* you.

Fair enough, I apologize then.

 

(PS - I am not aware where you were "trivialized", if you point it out I can also apologize more meaningfully, please feel free to cite.)

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

A tenth of half the George Washington Bridge?

 

Hint -- go back and look at the Penn Station scan. Note the chunk of concrete wreckage that Spidey is straining his absolute max to lift.

 

Notice that it's about one-millionth the size of the entire GW Bridge, not 1/20th of it.

 

The idea that Spidey could lift even a tenth of half the GW Bridge (i.e. -- 1/20th of the bridge) is ludicrous. He'd be just as likely to pick up an entire 20-story building on his shoulders. It's well beyond even his *MOST* generous lifting feats. Hell, it's well beyond his greatest lifting feat ever.

Your interpretation of Spidey's lift at Penn Station doesn't match up with mine.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

OK, now you're *definitely* posting just to mock and annoy people.

 

What's the word for that again? Hint -- mythological creature, lives under bridges.

 

Zornwil, you're really not helping with this kind of stuff. If you can't be serious, then just be an amused bystander, not a deliberate goad.

PS though - while I will take care given your feelings, I will point out that I will not desist from posting something I see as humorous.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Yes. My view is, if I want a game that 'abstracts' combat, where one roll reprseents the aggregate effect of an entire exchange of blows and misses, I should go back to D&D.

 

Besides, the game itself says that a Segment is 1 second long, so where the heck is there *time* for extended fight seqences inside a single roll? 5e and USPD already tell me how to model speedster 'rain of blows' punches, and it's not compatible with a 'this one attack and damage roll actually abstracts a lot of different punches' approach.

I don't want to debate it, I just want to know. I disagree, but it's immaterial other than to say so. Just as a comment, I will point out that I am not the only person who feels as I do - just as you are not the only person who feels as you do.