Point caps and Naked Advantages...

[SirViss]

Hey everyone,

 

I'm just about to start GMing my first Champions campaign, and I just want to see how other may have handled this situation:

 

Being my fist campaign, I am using the suggested caps for a Standard Superhero campaign. So 60 Strength/12 DC is the ordre "du jour". I have a brick that wants to get a Multipower with some of the typical "brick tricks" (ie earthquake, flick of unconsciousness, etc.). These will probably be bought as Naked Advantages to Strength.

 

Would you guys suggest it be bought to a level that would equate with the 60 point cap? (ex.: Explosion on Strength would limit the Strength used to 40.)

 

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[Irishman]

I would have him buy a 60 point multipower for "Strenght Effects" and just buy the powers straight out.If you start buying naked bonuses to str, it gets hard to hold them in check.

[RDU Neil]

I would agree with the "avoid naked advantages" comment. In a MP, just buy powers whose "effect" simulates that of "huge strength tricks."

 

Also, just as a note, I'd suggest being more concerned with damage class limitations, rather than active points.

 

60 active points in Hand Attack (or HKA) is hugely more abusive than a 10d6 AE Radius EB (whose active points is 100). Sometimes cool powers get cut because the active points are too high, even though the power is not nearly as abusive as other powers bought within the Active Point cap. Limiting Damage Classes is a better way to balance powers. 10d6 AE Hex makes it very easy to hit (only have to hit the hex) but 10d6 will never be an overpowering attack (at least in most campaigns.) However, for the same active points, I could buy a 5d6 HKA, which would be a minium of 6d6K with a 15 STR.

 

Way abusive.

 

Heck... on second thought... just be really careful with Hand Attacks and Hand Killing Attacks and you'll be ok!

[SirViss]

I know I indicated that I was a first-time GM for Champions, but I am not a newbie!

 

I have been watching a cap of 12 DC, no worries about that. But I was mentioning the cap on AP for the reason that "why would he use a simple strike when he can do THAT?!?"

 

For example, in the USPD, they have a Strength "power" where a brick can sweep his arm through a hex instead of attacking an enemy with a straight punch (AoE: 1 hex on Strength). Now, that means that the character in question would only ever face a 3 DCV, however agile the opponent might be.

 

So, I was thinking of insisting that the character only be able to do 8 DC with such an attack. Doing the math with Strength of 60:

 

- Straight punch of 12 DC => 60 AP

- AoE sweep (1 hex) of 8DC (or 40 STR)=> 60 AP

 

What do you guys think of such an adjustment?

 

PS: I should have mentionned that I was suggesting a DC cap from the beginning. Sorry guys.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by SirViss

What do you guys think of such an adjustment?

I think the adjustment is entirely dependent upon the campaign. To use your Brick "accurate" example, yes the Brick gets to attack the character as a DCV 3, but the Brick will also use 9 END for the attack instead of 6. The defender also gets the chance to Dive For Cover with only a -1 DEX roll. This is probably a much better chance than the character would get if he tried to Block or Dodge. So does it really matter if the character does 8d6 or 12d6 in that instance?

 

I think a lot of it just depends. I would have no problem if a player has a 12d6 "Accurate" punch, but would think twice before letting them have a 12d6 Armor Piercing Punch. On the other hand, I would not hesitate to let them have a 12d6 Penetrating attack (as Penetrating would probably equal about the same damage penetrated as they would get through anyway).

 

I guess what I am really saying is that not all Advantages are created equal. AE 1 hex is far less effective than Explosion for the same cost. With the AE attack the character might hit 1 or 2 people. For the EXP attack the character might hit 10 or 12 (of course you would need Hole In The Middle or Personal Immunity to keep from hitting yourself as well). I think you will need to evaluate the powers on an individual basis to determine whether they are too unbalancing for the game. Thus some of them might be 12d6 attacks, and some might be less.

[SirViss]

Hey Monolith

 

Just an observation:

 

[Nitpicking mode on]

There was a long thread that spoke about Diving For Cover and it liabilities. Given that the only choices would be to stand and take it or Dive For Cover, and be at ½DCV for 1 or more segments, that is still not bad. And anyway, can't you DFC from a normal attack?

[Nitpicking mode off]

 

Sorry about that, but you do bring up some good points. One being the fact that he will have to spend more END (but like alot of bricks he has a few to spare ). I guess I could insist on x2 END...

 

Also, your pointing out that not all Advantages are equal (even though they have the same value) definetly has some merit. I guess I will just have to think long and hard about it before allowing certain Naked Advantages. A GM must be ever vigilant!

 

Thanks guys! (Keep posting, wouldn't mind having other opinions...)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by SirViss

And anyway, can't you DFC from a normal attack?

Yes you can, and in a one-on-one fight DFC is the best defensive maneuver you can make (assuming you have an 18 DEX or higher). In a group fight though, someone would take advantage of that 1/2 DCV and nail you.

[TheEmerged]

I'll chime in with another vote for the "you really shouldn't allow naked advantages" camp. I'd like to specify that in addition to watching damage classes & active points, you should also watch out for "low base, high advantage" powers. Active points are a major balance tool, but they're not infallible.

 

One solution I've seen in the past is a Strength Multipower. 5th Edition weakens this option with the blanket rule that attributes in power frameworks doesn't contribute to figured characteristics and doesn't get a limitation for it either -- but it is still an option (just not as point-friendly).

[Agent.0.Fortune]

Hows this look.

 

STR 40

 

20 pt Multipower (with naked advantages)

+20 str (if you can't beat em, beat em harder)

Armor Piercing (hit em where it hurts)

AE one hex (captain kirks pattented two fisted punch)

autofire (the ol' one-two... three, four, five)

damage shield (punch my steely abs)

[Killer Shrike]

Personally, I subscribe to the idea of character Darwinism. I dont apply point caps at all. I do occasionally reject particularly effective power constructs if I feel they are so efficient or attention-requiring as to diminish the enjoyment of the game for myself or others, but thats just a judgement call based on long experience and not a factor of points in any particular arrangement.

 

I enforce tight SFX for characters, but anything a player can justify through that SFX is fair game. I dont allow 'metagamed' characters that are just a collection of powers that add up to a "Combo" of some sort, like the tunneling mentalist with N-Ray vision or other cheesy/lame system slimes.

 

Viable characters that are balanced survive, and unbalanced characters fold.

 

 

 

Onto the topic however,

Naked Power Advantages are a cool concept and really serve to extend the system in interesting ways. Treat them as any other special power; allow them where they wont be abused or unbalance the campaign.

 

If you are using point caps your approach of adding the APs of the NPA and the base power together should work out just fine. If you find it to be underpowered later, you can always allow the players to buy the NPA up in increments until you find a comfort zone.

 

The alternative of a Brick Trix MPP, achieving the same effects via full powers, is another option too.

 

 

As a test, you might want to stat the character with both NPAs to accomplish his Brick Trix, and a MPP. Then compare the 2 for effectiveness vs cost. Pick the one you find to be most balanced.

[SirViss]

The impression I am getting is the Naked Power Advantages are probably more approprtiate in a Hero-level campaign (as opposed to Superhero). Something like Cyberpunk or Pulp Hero, and lets not forget Ninja Hero, to represent some of the fantastic things that the Heroes can do.And so, NPA should be avoided (or at least have the disad "Hunted:Watched") in a Champs game.