Fixing Find Weakness

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fixing Find Weakness

 

I don't see the problem here. If the justification the character has for having Find Weakness doesn't apply to AoE attacks, then it just doesn't work for them. If the justification the character has for having Find Weakness at all requires they be able to hear, see, smell, or whatever, if they can't do that they can't use it.

 

I see these kind of arguements all of the time, and they never make any sense to me. "You can do {insert broken construct} with X power, therefor power is broken". There would potentially be a good application of FW with AoE, so I support there not being a rule that states that you can't use FW with AoE attacks. However as a Ref I at least would require a very good reason why it should work.

 

And can you provide the page referance in the rules where it states that FW works regardless of which if any senses you have working at the time? I don't remember seeing that in there anywhere.

 

Well these kinds of arguments have a high profile in your world because you are obviously seeing things that are not there. If you read post 8 you will see that I set out my objections to FW, and number 1 is that the build rarely makes sense. That is not a rules issue per se, that is not a direct criticism of find weakness, I'm saying that many people who use it don't think it through properly. I say 'not directly' because in a book as long as 5ER is there's plenty I'd cut out if it meant a little more discussion of the practical aspects of applying powers in game, and the sort of considerations you should perhaps have.

 

As for the page reference you ask for, I am not aware of one, but look at the power. It works against powers that are not visible to normal senses, so it can not be based on a normal sense, ergo it must be based on an unusual sense, and as there is no rule requiring you to apply the simulated sense rule to FW, it must work independently of normal senses and so is not affected even if they are not working.

 

You can house rule around that, of course, or apply limitations that make the power make sense, but that is how it is presented in the book. Personally I'd rather see all this thought through in the game design phase though, not in the character design phase.

[archermoo]

Re: Fixing Find Weakness

 

Well these kinds of arguments have a high profile in your world because you are obviously seeing things that are not there. If you read post 8 you will see that I set out my objections to FW' date=' and number 1 is that the build rarely makes sense. That is not a rules issue per se, that is not a direct criticism of find weakness, I'm saying that many people who use it don't think it through properly. I say 'not directly' because in a book as long as 5ER is there's plenty I'd cut out if it meant a little more discussion of the practical aspects of applying powers in game, and the sort of considerations you should perhaps have.[/quote']

 

I agree that quite frequently a FW build doesn't make sense. If you will re-read your post you listed the fact that FW builds often don't make sense as a problem you have with FW. Not just with people using it poorly, but with the talent itself.

 

And personally I'd just as soon the "discussion of the practical aspects of applying powers in game, and the sort of considerations you should perhaps have" bits be in campaign books and such, not the core rules. The core rules should just be dealing with getting the mechanics out there and providing examples of use. Higher level "how this goes together to build cool stuff" parts belong in discussions where you're already talking about putting it to use.

 

And I'll assume that you made the personal attack because you were in a bad mood, or had underwear that didn't fit, or something to that effect rather than assuming you're just an a*****e.

 

As for the page reference you ask for, I am not aware of one, but look at the power. It works against powers that are not visible to normal senses, so it can not be based on a normal sense, ergo it must be based on an unusual sense, and as there is no rule requiring you to apply the simulated sense rule to FW, it must work independently of normal senses and so is not affected even if they are not working.

 

You can house rule around that, of course, or apply limitations that make the power make sense, but that is how it is presented in the book. Personally I'd rather see all this thought through in the game design phase though, not in the character design phase.

 

No, FW doesn't work against powers that are not visible to normal senses. If anything it works against the characters that have those powers, but really what it does is increase the effectiveness of a power being used by the person who purchased FW and uses it sucessfully against a specific target.

 

It works just fine for me as it is written. I see nothing in the rules that says you can use FW on a target that you cannot percieve with a targeting sense, and I see no reason to assume that it is intended to work otherwise. I think it would potentially be a cool concept to have a character that could do FW similar to the way that you present it, but I wouldn't let them do it without actually buying the special sense.

 

Mostly it seems to me that you are falling into the trap of assuming the Hero system works from causes rather than effects. The powers/talents/skills/whatever in Hero that you purchase are the effects. The rules define what things do, you get to justify why they work like they do. In general, if someone has a problem with the why, it isn't the fault of the rules.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fixing Find Weakness

 

I agree that quite frequently a FW build doesn't make sense. If you will re-read your post you listed the fact that FW builds often don't make sense as a problem you have with FW. Not just with people using it poorly, but with the talent itself.

 

And personally I'd just as soon the "discussion of the practical aspects of applying powers in game, and the sort of considerations you should perhaps have" bits be in campaign books and such, not the core rules. The core rules should just be dealing with getting the mechanics out there and providing examples of use. Higher level "how this goes together to build cool stuff" parts belong in discussions where you're already talking about putting it to use.

 

And I'll assume that you made the personal attack because you were in a bad mood, or had underwear that didn't fit, or something to that effect rather than assuming you're just an a*****e.

 

 

 

No, FW doesn't work against powers that are not visible to normal senses. If anything it works against the characters that have those powers, but really what it does is increase the effectiveness of a power being used by the person who purchased FW and uses it sucessfully against a specific target.

 

It works just fine for me as it is written. I see nothing in the rules that says you can use FW on a target that you cannot percieve with a targeting sense, and I see no reason to assume that it is intended to work otherwise. I think it would potentially be a cool concept to have a character that could do FW similar to the way that you present it, but I wouldn't let them do it without actually buying the special sense.

 

Mostly it seems to me that you are falling into the trap of assuming the Hero system works from causes rather than effects. The powers/talents/skills/whatever in Hero that you purchase are the effects. The rules define what things do, you get to justify why they work like they do. In general, if someone has a problem with the why, it isn't the fault of the rules.

 

Well, with respect, you're the one saying my arguments don't make sense: I think I made a reasonably decent attempt to be fair about the situation, outlining the problems I perceive in what I hope was a reasonably balanced and not too overbearing fashion.

 

My response was hostile because I read your reply as, frankly, sneering. Which I didn't like.

 

It probably was not meant that way (I hope) so, I'm sorry I over reacted.

 

As to what FW works against, that is supposition on both our parts: the rules, where I'd hope to find the answer, are silent, althought hey do say it is a sensory power, which to me indicates that it is, as it says on the tin, 'finding a weakness'. I think all I'm doing is reading the text. I may be wrong.

 

If it works fine for you then fine: I'm not writing 6th ed. I've presented a number of (perceived) problems and a number of (I hope) reasonable solutions. It is pick and mix time at the sweety shop.

 

I'm not in a bad mood, I'm not wearing underwear and I may well be an a******e. Who knows?

 

Not I.

 

Anyway the last thing I want to do right now is have an argument with anyone. I apologise for my rude and unnecessarily harsh response.

[pinecone]

Re: Fixing Find Weakness

 

True dat

 

 

And a very good application of FW it is, but I've already tried to make it clear that I don't really have an issue with FW in most Champions games

 

 

 

well, if FW was defined systemically as a special power rather than a sense, I would have less issues, and in general, you are completely right... It is a personal perception issue.

And to be blunt and frank... I have no problem at all tweaking the system to do anything I want it to do, usually. What I was hoping for with this thread was to stimulate some interseting discussion and see if any of the various systemic Gurus out on the boards had any neat applications or variations to FW that I might not have thought of.

Which is why I keep citing specfic examples of circumstances... go get people thinking of applications other than "its a classic superhero power!"

 

*rant mode*

And a wee spiteful bit of myself wanted to point out that it's a redheaded stepchild orphan mechanic from 1st edition, with potential balance issues and major abuses and weird justifications that don't fit with the toolkit system...

 

Just like Killing attacks.

 

But because Find Weakness is considered to fit a classical superheroic concept, a lot of the same folk who hate the KA orphan mechanics as "not superheroic" will vehemently defend the FW orphan mechanics.

 

Sorry I missed your rant man...life is hard right now...But...I also like Killing attacks just fine too.......the only weird thing I've ever considered for FW is using PSL's vs lack of weakness instead of boosting up the roll...so as to limit the time you see 1/16th defenses....but last time I mentioned it the crys of Herasy! made me think maybe it was not so good an idea...:)a

 

*end rant*

...

[pinecone]

Re: Fixing Find Weakness

 

...

Why is my reply Inside his quote????

[archermoo]

Re: Fixing Find Weakness

 

Well, with respect, you're the one saying my arguments don't make sense: I think I made a reasonably decent attempt to be fair about the situation, outlining the problems I perceive in what I hope was a reasonably balanced and not too overbearing fashion.

 

My response was hostile because I read your reply as, frankly, sneering. Which I didn't like.

 

It probably was not meant that way (I hope) so, I'm sorry I over reacted.

 

As to what FW works against, that is supposition on both our parts: the rules, where I'd hope to find the answer, are silent, althought hey do say it is a sensory power, which to me indicates that it is, as it says on the tin, 'finding a weakness'. I think all I'm doing is reading the text. I may be wrong.

 

If it works fine for you then fine: I'm not writing 6th ed. I've presented a number of (perceived) problems and a number of (I hope) reasonable solutions. It is pick and mix time at the sweety shop.

 

I'm not in a bad mood, I'm not wearing underwear and I may well be an a******e. Who knows?

 

Not I.

 

Anyway the last thing I want to do right now is have an argument with anyone. I apologise for my rude and unnecessarily harsh response.

 

Let me apologize publicly for both what seemed to you to be a sneering post, and for snapping at a post of yours that really wasn't that bad. I certainly didn't intend the initial post to sound sneering, and I apologize that it came off that way.

 

Back to the topic at hand:

 

FW is a special power as well as a sensory power. My take was that it was rolled in as a sensory power so that the standard limits on senses would by default be applied to it. The fact that levels in perception specifically do not apply tells me that it isn't considered to be a sense in and of itself.

 

And reading the description of the power, it is a Self targeted power. So you are not targeting the person's defenses with anything. Unlike things like Active Sonar and N-Ray Perception it isn't listed as being a new sense in and of itself. So my default assumption is that it requires lock on with a targeting sense to be effective. And my take on the ability of FW to find weaknesses in powers that either normally have no obvious power effect or have been purchased with IPE was to show that it works on things like Armor, and that buying IPE isn't an easy way to be immune to FW. Showing that it isn't targeting the effect of the power, but giving the person with FW the ability to percieve holes in his target's defenses whether they are flashy or not.

 

Yes, it is possible to purchase builds of FW that are broken, which is why it has a ! warning on it. But I agree with what seems to me to be Steve's position on it. Yes it can be broken, but I'm not going to put overall limits on what situations it can be used in because I can't possibly know all of the situations that it should or should not work. It is up to the Ref to decide on a campaign by campaign basis, a character by character basis, and possibly on a usage by usage basis. I can't off the top of my head think of a situation where using FW with an AoE attack makes sense, but I'm not going to blanket say that there are no such situations because someone might come up with one that does make sense. I'd rather keep the core rules more open rather than more closed.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fixing Find Weakness

 

I have (shock!) used FW for a character with sonic powers: he could tune his attack to the resonant frequency of the target. His hearing was not targetting itself, but he could (following an attack) try and tune the EB in a sort of feedback loop(make a FW roll). Seemed to work well enough and was utter mustard against inanimate objects where he had plenty of time: he could shatter virtually anything. mind you the power was built with significant limitations: the attacks had to hit and be consecutive, so basically he had to stand there and do nothing else but tune and EB, tune and EB. Also it did not work against energy type force fields which didn't reflect the sound properly.

 

I think my problem with FW is that when I see it in character builds there is rarely a good sfx which applies and explains how it works in all the situations it is means to work in. This is clearly an application issue rather than a rules issue, and I accpet the caveats and such that have been pointed out. Virtually any power needs SOME thought to go into it, and this more than most.

 

My only real beef with the power as it is written is that I can not see the sense in it working against normal (including damage resistance) and resistant defences seperately (when to all practical intents and purposes pd with DR can be the same as pd armour), and I'd be much happier if it worked against sfx rather than mechanics; as written it makes it even more difficult to find an applicable and appropriate sfx that makes sense in the game context.

 

I know the game tries to steer clear of sfx in the mechanics, but they are used in, e.g. missile deflection, I don't think it would be a big leap to employ them here.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Fixing Find Weakness

 

I haven't read all of the replies, but I'll just state my own perspective. Find Weakness doesn't necessarily have the SFX of finding a physical position on the target's body; that is just one possible choice of SFX. Even if that is part of the chosen SFX, each Hit Location might have portions that are weakly covered by defenses ("seams," "joints," "thin spots," whatever). Lack of Weaknesss could also be bought with a location-based Activation Roll.

 

As far as balance goes, I think Find Weakness is likely to be most common in games that do not employ Hit Locations (Superheroic games). When a character has Find Weakness in a game that uses Hit Locations, I would see nothing wrong with the GM, for game balance purposes, disallowing called shots or even applying generic damage rather than Hit Location based damage (even if you do determine the Hit Location for other purposes).

 

In general I don't see anything wrong with the Power (that is, nothing more dangerous that other stop-sign Powers and particular combinations of other Powers and Modifiers). As always the GM may have to make judgement calls, both at character creation and during gameplay, for the particular game being run.