Fixing Find Weakness

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Fixing Find Weakness

 

I've never seen FW be a problem....But I've always considered it part of your offense

If I'm limiting power levels so if you spent 20 points on FW your 12D6 attack does 8D6 instead...built this way, FW is a fairly shabby thing and few take it...

but to me if you have someyhing that everyone Must have it is almost certainly overpowered......

 

True dat

 

FW is nessisary for skill mongers who by conception are not godlike...like the Batgawd...if you buid him as having 8 to 10 dice of MA's and 30 to 50 points in the utility belt, he is in danger vs thugs, add in FW: All attacks, and he can fight supers with the same facility as thugs......just buy 3-5 overall levels.

And a very good application of FW it is, but I've already tried to make it clear that I don't really have an issue with FW in most Champions games

 

Some of the "makes sense" issues are self inflicted' date=' if you insist on seeing FW as a "sense" then that will bug ya, if you see it as a mental ability or schtick, then other things will bug ya...but those are Not system issues...those are personal "suspension of beleif" issues.[/quote']

 

well, if FW was defined systemically as a special power rather than a sense, I would have less issues, and in general, you are completely right... It is a personal perception issue.

And to be blunt and frank... I have no problem at all tweaking the system to do anything I want it to do, usually. What I was hoping for with this thread was to stimulate some interseting discussion and see if any of the various systemic Gurus out on the boards had any neat applications or variations to FW that I might not have thought of.

Which is why I keep citing specfic examples of circumstances... go get people thinking of applications other than "its a classic superhero power!"

 

*rant mode*

And a wee spiteful bit of myself wanted to point out that it's a redheaded stepchild orphan mechanic from 1st edition, with potential balance issues and major abuses and weird justifications that don't fit with the toolkit system...

 

Just like Killing attacks.

 

But because Find Weakness is considered to fit a classical superheroic concept, a lot of the same folk who hate the KA orphan mechanics as "not superheroic" will vehemently defend the FW orphan mechanics.

 

*end rant*

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fixing Find Weakness

 

That's a point, isn;t it: overall levels used to find weakness then re-assigned, but find weakness keeps rolling along as an ongoing effect, unlike most 'skills' which have a one-off effect.

 

Hmm.

 

AmadanNaBriona, I know I didn't get to the Iowa thread until post 23 and you already had two honourable mentions by that stage: it is a classic though: lots of really good discussion, so worth reviewing before re-ploughing the field (to mix my metaphors horribly).

 

I think this FW discussion is one that we are going to have to look at in practice. I have always been wary of it and careful before letting players take it, so it has not been a problem, but think on this: Brick of 30 DEF with 25 CON faces 12d6 EB and takes (on average) 12 Stun. One FW and a 12d6 EN and he'll be taking 27 Stun on average and probably going down awful quick, as he is stunned and all.

 

That FW could have cost as little as 10 points for a 62.5% chance of success, and the FW and EB could have all happened in the same phase.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Fixing Find Weakness

 

That's a point, isn;t it: overall levels used to find weakness then re-assigned, but find weakness keeps rolling along as an ongoing effect, unlike most 'skills' which have a one-off effect.

 

Hmm.

 

AmadanNaBriona, I know I didn't get to the Iowa thread until post 23 and you already had two honourable mentions by that stage: it is a classic though: lots of really good discussion, so worth reviewing before re-ploughing the field (to mix my metaphors horribly).

 

I think this FW discussion is one that we are going to have to look at in practice. I have always been wary of it and careful before letting players take it, so it has not been a problem, but think on this: Brick of 30 DEF with 25 CON faces 12d6 EB and takes (on average) 12 Stun. One FW and a 12d6 EN and he'll be taking 27 Stun on average and probably going down awful quick, as he is stunned and all.

 

That FW could have cost as little as 10 points for a 62.5% chance of success, and the FW and EB could have all happened in the same phase.

 

 

I just reread the Iowa thread...That WAS a good discussion, wasn't it?

 

The more I ponder it the more I like the "FW can be used over and over, but only effects the next shot" model.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fixing Find Weakness

 

I just reread the Iowa thread...That WAS a good discussion, wasn't it?

 

The more I ponder it the more I like the "FW can be used over and over, but only effects the next shot" model.

 

That sounds very fair to me: it would still make FW powerful without it bing so (potentially) unbalancing

[TheRavenIs]

Re: Fixing Find Weakness

 

I have a C in a game that has 105 AP/21 DC limit. She has FW/all attacks. The GM and I reduced her attacks to 80 AP/16 DC limit. We did take the FW into account, which was why we reduced the DC limit.

[Utech]

Re: Fixing Find Weakness

 

I'm with the "don't see FW as broken" crowd.

 

As soon as I see Find Weakness written on a character sheet I check powers, DCs, skill levels, etc to ensure that the character will not be unbalancing. Doesn't take too much time to figure it out. And if I miss something and it becomes a problem in game play I discuss the problem with the player and adjust the character accordingly.

 

No no problem.

 

There are plenty of powers and skills that you ought to be careful with. FW is just one of them.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Fixing Find Weakness

 

I don't like FW. It's an orphan mechanic and it makes very little sense.

 

I think of it as a power that induces weakness in a target rather than finding one. If it involved finding a weakness, then you shouldn't be able to use it against a target who was invisible. You shouldn't be able to find a weakness in a defense that you cannot perceive (invisible force fields for example)

 

I would just as soon get rid of it.

[Adventus]

Re: Fixing Find Weakness

 

And from the special effects angle, FW also doesn't make sense. If you find a weakness, you can't tell anybody else about it. You can't say what the weakness is. You just halve their defenses.

 

I do like the idea that you have to specify what effect or power you can find weakness on. And that you can identify what the weakness is. This would make more sense given the hero system is supposed to a toolkit. You should be able to break it down into its primary components but the way it is written you can't do that.

 

I personally would make it a sense: detect weakness discrimatory analyse linked to an attack power. and lack of weakness acts like penalty skill levels on your perception roll. This would allow you to have your teammates target the same spot and take advantage of a opponents weakness. This would also make the genre staple of the villian modifying his defenses to remove that weakness from himself more believable. Ultron is the result of this.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Fixing Find Weakness

 

And from the special effects angle' date=' FW also doesn't make sense. If you find a weakness, you can't tell anybody else about it. You can't say what the weakness is. You just halve their defenses. [/quote']

 

The obvious question is whether that's true to the source material. The ultimate FW character is Karnak of the Inhumans, and I don't recall him being able to tell his teammates where the weakness is.

 

Way back after Wolverine first appeared in Hulk #180-181, a letter writer noted that Wolverine found the Hulk's "weak point", which was in his neck. He noted being surprised to find the Hulk HAD a weak point, but even more surprised he had more than one, since Karnak had found his weakness abck in (IIRC) Hulk Annual #1, and it was located in his chest.

 

The proposed answer was that where he was weakest depended on what kind of attack was being used. I always use that rationale - the location of the best point to strike depends on the nature of the attack used to strike.

[incrdbil]

Re: Fixing Find Weakness

 

And from the special effects angle, FW also doesn't make sense. If you find a weakness, you can't tell anybody else about it. You can't say what the weakness is. You just halve their defenses.

 

Thats easy; you find the weakness versus your attacks, for this combat. Its as much of finding a weakness in an opponents combat style, as much as fiing a weakness in physical, material protection.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fixing Find Weakness

 

Thats easy; you find the weakness versus your attacks' date=' for this combat. Its as much of finding a weakness in an opponents combat style, as much as fiing a weakness in physical, material protection.[/quote']

 

...unless you are finding a weakness in, for instance, a force wall, or even a real wall that doesn't have (much of) a combat style....

[Utech]

Re: Fixing Find Weakness

 

...unless you are finding a weakness in' date=' for instance, a force wall, or even a real wall that doesn't have (much of) a combat style....[/quote']

 

I think you are taking the Find Weakness ability too literally. FW reflects some characters' ability to be more effective after studying a target. It is not really about the target, it is about the person with the FW ability.

 

Just as Flight is not about defeating gravity, it is about a person's ability to fly.

[Fuzzy Gnome]

Re: Fixing Find Weakness

 

*rant mode*

And a wee spiteful bit of myself wanted to point out that it's a redheaded stepchild orphan mechanic from 1st edition, with potential balance issues and major abuses and weird justifications that don't fit with the toolkit system...

 

Just like Killing attacks.

 

But because Find Weakness is considered to fit a classical superheroic concept, a lot of the same folk who hate the KA orphan mechanics as "not superheroic" will vehemently defend the FW orphan mechanics.

 

*end rant*

I'm one of those people. I think Killing Attacks stink, but I tolerate Find Weakness. The difference is that Find Weakness usually only comes up for over-the-top superheroic martial artists, while most genres are full of Killing Attacks. It's like the rulebook is saying that the best mechanic to describe mundane stuff you can get at Wal-Mart like pistols, bows, and straight razors is a Wildly Unpredictable Stunning Attack. I find it less jarring that Karate Kid can stun Superman than that any brick or armor dude in any genre has to be pretty much immune to a 16 ton weight in order to have any reasonable chance to stay conscious after a fusillade of mundane submachine-gun fire.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Fixing Find Weakness

 

I think you are taking the Find Weakness ability too literally. FW reflects some characters' ability to be more effective after studying a target. It is not really about the target, it is about the person with the FW ability.

 

Just as Flight is not about defeating gravity, it is about a person's ability to fly.

 

Except that it really isn't.

 

If you have find weakness with all of your attacks and you make a roll against somebody who then ducks around a corner, goes invisible or puts up a darkness field, you can still toss a grenade near them and have the shrapnel magically find weak spots in their defenses.

 

It isn't you that are finding a weak spot in people/things to hit, it's you causing their defenses to stop working very well against you (provided you're using an applicable attack)

 

As I have stated before, the power would be more accurately described as Cause Weakness.

 

In that sense, it really is about the target at least as much as the wielder.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fixing Find Weakness

 

Good point: AoE attacks are one example where it is really quite difficult to justify FW - area attacks. I mean I can see a way of justifying it for attacks targetted on the object you are finding weakness in but an AoE is going to be targetted on an area. Makes no real sense.

 

The other think I really don't get (as mentioned before) is how FW is independent of your normal senses. You could be flashed to all five normal senses and still be able to use it without penalty as far as I can see as it is not reliant on your own senses. Which agains makes very little sense.

[Utech]

Re: Fixing Find Weakness

 

Good point: AoE attacks are one example where it is really quite difficult to justify FW - area attacks. I mean I can see a way of justifying it for attacks targetted on the object you are finding weakness in but an AoE is going to be targetted on an area. Makes no real sense.

Isn't this one of those cases where common and dramatic sense tell us that FW just doesn't work? Unless the sfx for FW were really interesting (mystic?) then I think the AoE problem is a non-issue.

 

5ER page 175 says several things that probably clear all this up:

1. As always, the GM should take into account the circumstances, special effects, common sense, dramatic sense and considerations of game balance. There may be situations where a GM's willing to expand the effects of Find Weakness a little, or times when he considers int necessary to reduce them.
   
2. If the target of Find Weakness changes his form or shape via Multiform, Shape Sift, or any ability the GM deems similar, he stops a found weakness from affecting him.
   
3. The GM may impose any other restrictions on Find Weakness he believes rae necessary to maintain common sense or dramatic sense or to preserve game balance. For example, even if Find Weakness works with "All Attacks," he might not let a character apply find Weakness if he tries to crash a car into the target, or triggers a hidden bomb.

The other think I really don't get (as mentioned before) is how FW is independent of your normal senses. You could be flashed to all five normal senses and still be able to use it without penalty as far as I can see as it is not reliant on your own senses. Which agains makes very little sense.

FW is both a Special Power and a Sensory Power. I think it makes plenty of common and dramatic sense to say that most characters who have lost the use of all senses cannot use FW. Again, perhaps some weird sfx might get around this.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Fixing Find Weakness

 

the other thing about FW that makes no sense is that you don't have to be particularly accurate in order to get the weakness into play.

 

If you find weakness on somebody who then dives for cover as you shoot somebody else (with an applicable attack) that person automatically puts his weak spot right into your shot.

 

If you find weakness on somebody who you can't reliably hit, then all of a sudden, anywhere you hit that person, whenever you actually do, happens to be a weak spot.

 

Conceptually, it is as if the FW victim's entire body is turned into a weak spot. You have to actively opt to aim for a point that isn't a weak spot.

 

If FW made any sense at all, it would be harder to hit a target while using FW.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Fixing Find Weakness

 

Good point: AoE attacks are one example where it is really quite difficult to justify FW - area attacks. I mean I can see a way of justifying it for attacks targetted on the object you are finding weakness in but an AoE is going to be targetted on an area. Makes no real sense.

 

The other think I really don't get (as mentioned before) is how FW is independent of your normal senses. You could be flashed to all five normal senses and still be able to use it without penalty as far as I can see as it is not reliant on your own senses. Which agains makes very little sense.

This is the point where you simply deny FW.

 

Book Legal does not mean, or imply, Game Applicable.

 

sure - you could find a game/situation where you find it OK to use FW on AoE but make that the exception to the rule, instead of the rule itself.

[casualplayer]

Re: Fixing Find Weakness

 

I miss Piercing Points, from Champions III I believe. Basically standard effect damage only for defeating defenses. Scalable, cost effective at any level of play and not broken. I haven't allowed Armor Piercing or Find Weakness in any of my games since, which admittedly does make it awfully darn difficult to import or export any characters. C'est la vie, c'est la guerre!

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Fixing Find Weakness

 

I miss Piercing Points' date=' from Champions III I believe. Basically standard effect damage only for defeating defenses. Scalable, cost effective at any level of play and not broken. I haven't allowed Armor Piercing or Find Weakness in any of my games since, which admittedly does make it awfully darn difficult to import or export any characters. C'est la vie, c'est la guerre![/quote']

Rejoice, Brother!

Peircing is back as an official rule. All hail Dark Champions for restoring one of the more useful powers of the past.

 

I've actually pondered if one could do a good rework of FW using peircing.

[casualplayer]

Re: Fixing Find Weakness

 

Rejoice, Brother!

Peircing is back as an official rule. All hail Dark Champions for restoring one of the more useful powers of the past.

 

I've actually pondered if one could do a good rework of FW using peircing.

 

Well, crud. Is there anywhere I can get this info without buying a whole book, or at least score a cheap edition? Much love for Mr. Long, but I've never been a fan of Dark Champions.

 

These are real Piercing Points, right, not just the Piercing advantage (which is poop.) Don't get my hopes up, Amadan, to dash them on the rocks.

[archermoo]

Re: Fixing Find Weakness

 

Good point: AoE attacks are one example where it is really quite difficult to justify FW - area attacks. I mean I can see a way of justifying it for attacks targetted on the object you are finding weakness in but an AoE is going to be targetted on an area. Makes no real sense.

 

The other think I really don't get (as mentioned before) is how FW is independent of your normal senses. You could be flashed to all five normal senses and still be able to use it without penalty as far as I can see as it is not reliant on your own senses. Which agains makes very little sense.

 

I don't see the problem here. If the justification the character has for having Find Weakness doesn't apply to AoE attacks, then it just doesn't work for them. If the justification the character has for having Find Weakness at all requires they be able to hear, see, smell, or whatever, if they can't do that they can't use it.

 

I see these kind of arguements all of the time, and they never make any sense to me. "You can do {insert broken construct} with X power, therefor power is broken". There would potentially be a good application of FW with AoE, so I support there not being a rule that states that you can't use FW with AoE attacks. However as a Ref I at least would require a very good reason why it should work.

 

And can you provide the page referance in the rules where it states that FW works regardless of which if any senses you have working at the time? I don't remember seeing that in there anywhere.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Fixing Find Weakness

 

Since it was asked about earlier, here are two examples where find weakness made sense for the special effect.

 

1. Sonic character used FW to find the resonant frequency of opponent's defenses, which allowed greater damage.

 

2. Mentalist with FW for all mental powers, defined as sizing up the psychological limitations and thinking patterns of the target so as to more easily slip past defenses.

 

In both these cases the characters had senses that justified the FW, and in both cases the sfx was well-defined. That said, either could have easily just used the AP advantage with a skill roll (and I have had builds that way too).

 

I should also say that FW tends only to be abusive if the character has spent a certain threshold of points. If it is only on 11-, it is too unreliable to justify the cost. By the time it is 14- and you have a good chance of it working once and a reasonable chance of it working a second time, it can get really dangerous. To some extent that is true of any power (just a few more DC to get over those high defenses for example) but for FW it is more pronounced because of the way it works on the bell curve.

 

I have no great attachment to FW, and given it's potentially problematic pitfalls, I would be just fine with losing it. Sure it might be conceptually nice for some characters, but I don't see why you couldn't achieve the same effect with extra DC or AP on a skill roll, or one of the other work-arounds already mentioned. Why clutter up the game with powers you can so nearly duplicate with less potential for abuse?

 

_____________________________________________________

"Uh, Joel, what is Ator sitting on?" - Crow

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Fixing Find Weakness

 

Well, crud. Is there anywhere I can get this info without buying a whole book, or at least score a cheap edition? Much love for Mr. Long, but I've never been a fan of Dark Champions.

 

These are real Piercing Points, right, not just the Piercing advantage (which is poop.) Don't get my hopes up, Amadan, to dash them on the rocks.

 

Yep, they're real, good ole fashioned Champs 3 peircing points, suitably updated.

 

And while I totally understand a potential dislike of the DC genre (tho I don't share it), the new DC is really a quite sweet book. Its really far more a modern action movie suppliment than a grim vigilante suppliment like 4th ed was. Scads of info for modern hardware, and some really useful bits for a lot of HEroic Genres. The Resource Point rules are quite good for a lot of applications, the section on powers as superskills are creative and well done, the Expert Skill enhancer should have been invented about 15 yers ago, there are a lot of great packages for modern professions, and a bunch more optional rules for more gritty realistic games.

 

I'd reccomend looking for a used copy (or buying the PDF if you want to float DoJ some $), even if you mostly stick with 4 color games... even in a normal champs game you'll find stuff that'll be worthwhile for when you have to trot out the army, terrorists, crimminals and the like.

[Vondy]

Re: Fixing Find Weakness

 

In Heroic games, when a player says he wants find weakness, I tell him that I completely approve of his desire to purchase PSL's versus hit location modifiers. It works better in super-heroic games, but its kind of a rules kludge.