New Power: Intangible

[schir1964]

Intangible [Constant, Stop Sign]

This power allows the character to become intangible in a specific aspect of the character. Intangilble is purchased component by component to fit the SFX. When this power is activated the character becomes intangible to those aspects purchased. As an option, the character can define at purchase that the character is intangible by default and must deactivate the ability to become tangible.

 

Aspects

Physical: Character is intangible to attacks vs PD/rPD and any power defined by a Physical SFX. Character may not use any ability that is defined directly or indirectly by Physical SFX.

Energy: Character is intangible to attacks vs ED/rED and any power defined by a Energy SFX. Character may not use any ability that is defined directly or indirectly by Energy SFX.

Adjustment: Character is intangible to attacks vs PwrD/rPwrD and any power defined by a Altering SFX. Character may not use any ability that is defined directly or indirectly by Adjustment SFX.

Mental: Character is intangible to attacks vs MD/rMD and any power defined by a Mental SFX. Character may not use any ability that is defined directly or indirectly by Mental SFX.

Perception: Character is intangible to attacks vs FD/rFD is any attack targeting the character's senses directly. Character may not use any senses to perceive the tangible environment.

Movement: Allows a character to move via the laws of intangibility. This is a unique ability with no similarities to any other movement power. This allows movement in all directions is not blocked by any tangible obstructions.

 

Exotic Intangibility: This advantage expands a single intangibility aspect to attacks/powers that use AVLD/NND/UAA and so forth.

Limited Effect: This limitation restricts intangibility aspect to a subset of the main aspect purchased.

Twoway Mirror: This advantage allows normal usage of abilities for a specific aspect. Example: Perception Intangiblity with this advantage allows the character to see the tangible enviroment around them.

Amorphus: This advantage is applied to normal movements powers to allow an intangible character to use normal movement for mobility while intangible. This does not grant any additional abilities to the movement power.

 

Costs

Physical/Energy/Adjustment/Mental/Perception: 10 Points Per Aspect

Movement: 5 Points Per 1" Of Movement

Exotic Intangibility: +10 Adder

Limited Effect: -1/4 Minor, -1/2 Average, -1 Major, -2 Severe

Twoway Mirror: +1 Advantage

Amorphus: +1 Advantage

 

Endurance

Intangiblity Activation: 1 END Per 10 Active Points

Tangiblity Activation: 1 END Per 10 Active Points [Caution Sign]

 

Thoughts?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Power: Intangible

 

Cool.

 

OK. So 'complete intangibility' is 50 points: you can not interact with the 'real world' at all, and it can't interact with you, except through the use of NNDs and exotic attacks.

 

Am I right in thinking that for 200 points (add exotic, TW Mirror and movement) I can interact with the real world but it can't interact with me, and I can move about according to my normal move powers? Seems very powerful.

 

I like the structured approach and the improved definition but I am concerned that the 'all bells and whistles' top end of the power is too cheap.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Power: Intangible

 

Intangible [Constant' date= Stop Sign]

This power allows the character to become intangible in a specific aspect of the character. Intangilble is purchased component by component to fit the SFX. When this power is activated the character becomes intangible to those aspects purchased. Or the character defines at purchase that the character is intangible by default and must deactivate the ability to become tangible.

 

Aspects

Physical: Character is intangible to attacks vs PD/rPD and any power defined by a Physical SFX. Character may not use any ability that is defined directly or indirectly by Physical SFX.

Energy: Character is intangible to attacks vs ED/rED and any power defined by a Energy SFX. Character may not use any ability that is defined directly or indirectly by Energy SFX.

Adjustment: Character is intangible to attacks vs PwrD/rPwrD and any power defined by a Altering SFX. Character may not use any ability that is defined directly or indirectly by Adjustment SFX.

Mental: Character is intangible to attacks vs MD/rMD and any power defined by a Mental SFX. Character may not use any ability that is defined directly or indirectly by Mental SFX.

Perception: Character is intangible to attacks vs FD/rFD is any attack targeting the character's senses directly. Character may not use any senses to perceive the tangible environment.

 

"Perception" implies the character becomes invisible. I don't think that's rthe intent, but it's easily read that way.

 

Movement: Allows a character to move via the laws of intangibility. This is a unique ability with no similarities to any other movement power. This allows movement in all directions is not blocked by any tangible obstructions.

 

Is this intended for separate purchase by characters who interact normally with the real world, but can walk through walls? It seems odd if a character who is "physically intangible" bumps into walls.

 

Exotic Intangibility: This advantage expands a single intangibility aspect to attacks/powers that use AVLD/NND/UAA and so forth.

 

Again, as I read your descriptions above, "any attack with an energy SFX" would seem to include energy based NND's.

 

Limited Effect: This limitation restricts intangibility aspect to a subset of the main aspect purchased.

Twoway Mirror: This advantage allows normal usage of abilities for a specific aspect. Example: Perception Intangiblity with this advantage allows the character to see the tangible enviroment around them.

Amorphus: This advantage is applied to normal movements powers to allow an intangible character use normal movement for mobility while intangible. This does not grant any additional abilities to the movement power.

 

The removal of an intangible character's ability to move without expensive movement powers seems a bit off, somehow. It seems like virtual Invulnerability becomes cheaper than the ability to move while Desolid.

 

Costs

Physical/Energy/Adjustment/Mental/Perception: 10 Points Per Aspect

Movement: 5 Points Per 1" Of Movement

Exotic Intangibility: +1 Advantage

Limited Effect: -1/4 Minor, -1/2 Average, -1 Major, -2 Severe

Twoway Mirror: +1 Advantage

Amorphus: +1 Advantage

 

So for 60 points, I can be immune to al physical and energy attacks (including NND's) and use my own normally. That sounds pretty low-cost for such an ability.

 

But it costs me an extra 12 points to be able to move my base Running while I'm Intangible.

 

Endurance

Intangiblity Activation: 1 END Per 10 Active Points

Tangiblity Activation: 1 END Per 2 Active Points

 

I'm not a fan of making a special END formula for a single power. For that matter, a separate regime for "always on" Intangibility seems like overkill in and of itself.

[Big Willy]

Re: New Power: Intangible

 

What's wrong with "Old Power: Desolid"?

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Intangible

 

What's wrong with "Old Power: Desolid"?

(8^D)

[Kristopher]

Re: New Power: Intangible

 

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo....

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Intangible

 

"Perception" implies the character becomes invisible. I don't think that's rthe intent' date=' but it's easily read that way.[/quote']

No, that is not the intent. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

Is this movement intended for separate purchase by characters who interact normally with the real world' date=' but can walk through walls? It seems odd if a character who is "physically intangible" bumps into walls.[/quote']

Obviously, I haven't made things clear.

Normally, someone who is intangible to physical could purchase Flight.

This is separate power unique in that is allows Flight like abilities for moving through things that normally couldn't be done. It covers those SFX such as Phasing that would allow someone to phase down through the ground, but has not cabability of "Flight" whatsoever. So it is a movement power unique to itself.

 

Did I make that clear as mud?

 

Again' date=' as I read your descriptions above, "any attack with an energy SFX" would seem to include energy based NND's.[/quote']

No, all the Aspects defined were meant to imply non-exotic types of attacks or attacks vs normal defenses. Sorry for the confusion.

 

The removal of an intangible character's ability to move without expensive movement powers seems a bit off' date=' somehow. It seems like virtual Invulnerability becomes cheaper than the ability to move while Desolid.[/quote']

See above. The Movement section is movement ability unique and in addition to the other movement powers.

 

So for 60 points' date=' I can be immune to al physical and energy attacks (including NND's) and use my own normally. That sounds pretty low-cost for such an ability.[/quote']

Nope, only to non-exotic attacks.

 

But it costs me an extra 12 points to be able to move my base Running while I'm Intangible.

Nope, all normal movement powers apply normally to the aspect that character is intangible to.

 

Let me clarify further. If while intangible you still have legs or the parts of you that allow your movement, then you can still move normally. But if you turn into a cloud of mist or water and so forth, then you will need the Amorphus advantage.

 

I'm not a fan of making a special END formula for a single power. For that matter' date=' a separate regime for "always on" Intangibility seems like overkill in and of itself.[/quote']

Then remove it. This isn't a written in stone mechanic. Change to fit what you need.

 

However, I will point out that there is precedent for having END different for a specific mechanic. The GM is given the option to change the cost of END for STR based on the setting. This is in that same vein.

 

If your setting is such that "Ghosts" can become tangible only through deliberate exertion on their part, then this mechanic handles it easily.

 

Any other things I can clarify?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Rapier]

Re: New Power: Intangible

 

What's wrong with "Old Power: Desolid"?

 

That was my first question.

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Intangible

 

Cool.

 

OK. So 'complete intangibility' is 50 points: you can not interact with the 'real world' at all, and it can't interact with you, except through the use of NNDs and exotic attacks.

 

Am I right in thinking that for 200 points (add exotic, TW Mirror and movement) I can interact with the real world but it can't interact with me, and I can move about according to my normal move powers? Seems very powerful.

 

I like the structured approach and the improved definition but I am concerned that the 'all bells and whistles' top end of the power is too cheap.

Well you could have helped me refine this further over at GIR. (8^D)

 

So what do you suggest for costs then?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Intangible

 

That was my first question.

http://www.herogames.com/oldForum/Rules/000519.html

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10337

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8529

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Power: Intangible

 

Obviously, I haven't made things clear.

Normally, someone who is intangible to physical could purchase Flight.

This is separate power unique in that is allows Flight like abilities for moving through things that normally couldn't be done. It covers those SFX such as Phasing that would allow someone to phase down through the ground, but has not cabability of "Flight" whatsoever. So it is a movement power unique to itself.

 

Did I make that clear as mud?

 

The intent seems clear - if I want to move through solid objects, but not be otherwise intangible, I pay 5 points for 1" movement. I guess I'm getting Flight (2 points per 1") and the ability to pass through solid objects (3 points per 1").

 

But it seems unfair that a character who has 25" of Flight has to pay 50 more points to have 10" of movement through a solid object if he could instead pay 20, be Intangible to physical and energy, and use his Flight to move through solid objects three times as fast.

 

Can't those SFX be covered with "Flight, only to pass through solid objects while Intangible"?

 

No' date=' all the Aspects defined were meant to imply non-exotic types of attacks or attacks vs normal defenses. Sorry for the confusion.[/quote']

 

I'm not convinced that being immune to all physical attacks, plus being able to walk through solid walls, is no more valuable than being immune to NND's with a physical special effect.

 

Nope' date=' only to non-exotic attacks.[/quote']

 

What am I missing? I get:

 

Intangible to Physical (10), Exotic (+1), Two Way (+1) = 30

Intangible to Energy (10), Exotic (+1), Two Way (+1) = 30

 

That should make me immune to all PD/ED type attacks (even if they're NND's) while being able to use my own such attacks, shouldn't it?

 

Nope' date=' all normal movement powers apply normally to the aspect that character is intangible to.[/quote']

 

I'm confused. Let's assume my only power is Intangibility. I can become Intangible to all five aspects. Am I now unable to move, or can I move at 6" (base running), or a 2" climb?

 

If I can use my movement powers normally while Intangible, why do I need a special power, or an advantage on existing movement powers, for intangible movement? If I can't, I need to pay 12 points to place the +1 Amorpheous advantage on my running to Run while intangible, don't I? Maybe I don't understand what Amorpheous does.

 

Then remove it. This isn't a written in stone mechanic. Change to fit what you need.

 

However, I will point out that there is precedent for having END different for a specific mechanic. The GM is given the option to change the cost of END for STR based on the setting. This is in that same vein.

 

If your setting is such that "Ghosts" can become tangible only through deliberate exertion on their part, then this mechanic handles it easily.

 

Absolutely, but that doesn't mean I would make this setting-specific tweak a default rule.

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Intangible

 

The intent seems clear - if I want to move through solid objects' date=' but not be otherwise intangible, I pay 5 points for 1" movement. I guess I'm getting Flight (2 points per 1") and the ability to pass through solid objects (3 points per 1").[/quote']

Actually, not quite. It grants three dimensional movement in the Aspect the character is intagible to. It doesn't grant Flight cabability at all. I know it's an odd concept to grasp.

 

So it's 5 Points to move through an aspect in three directions, not flight through the air.

 

But it seems unfair that a character who has 25" of Flight has to pay 50 more points to have 10" of movement through a solid object if he could instead pay 20' date=' be Intangible to physical and energy, and use his Flight to move through solid objects three times as fast.[/quote']

Actually no. The character would have spent 50 Extra points to not only fly 25" through the air while intangible, but also fly 25" through physical/energy barriers.

 

Can't those SFX be covered with "Flight' date=' only to pass through solid objects while Intangible"?[/quote']

You'll have to decide that as GM. Not my call.

 

I'm not convinced that being immune to all physical attacks' date=' plus being able to walk through solid walls, is no more valuable than being immune to NND's with a physical special effect.[/quote']

Okay, change it to what think is right.

 

What am I missing? I get:

 

Intangible to Physical (10), Exotic (+1), Two Way (+1) = 30

Intangible to Energy (10), Exotic (+1), Two Way (+1) = 30

 

That should make me immune to all PD/ED type attacks (even if they're NND's) while being able to use my own such attacks, shouldn't it?

Correct. I don't see the problem. But again, feel free to change the values or definitions as you see fit.

 

If you think it should be done differently, post it here and we'll discuss it. If you make a solid argument, I can be convinced to change things.

 

I'm confused. Let's assume my only power is Intangibility. I can become Intangible to all five aspects. Am I now unable to move, or can I move at 6" (base running), or a 2" climb?

 

If I can use my movement powers normally while Intangible, why do I need a special power, or an advantage on existing movement powers, for intangible movement? If I can't, I need to pay 12 points to place the +1 Amorpheous advantage on my running to Run while intangible, don't I? Maybe I don't understand what Amorpheous does.

Sorry about that. I realized what I had done and ammended my reply to this in the above post while you were working on this post.

 

I clarified what the difference was.

 

Absolutely' date=' but that doesn't mean I would make this setting-specific tweak a default rule.[/quote']

Do you consider the STR END Cost for Heroic Settings a "Default Rule"?

Consider it an option then.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[prestidigitator]

Re: New Power: Intangible

 

Let's see what it takes to build your normal Desolidification:

Physical, Energy, and Adjustment Intangibility;

[30 Base]

 

Exotic Physical (+1);

Exotic Energy (+1);

Exotic Adjustment (+1);

 

[120 Active]

 

Limited Effect: Not vs.

(-1/2);

 

[80 Real]

 

+Amorphous (+1) on all the character's Movement Powers (or a Naked Advantage that can apply to any of them)

Ouch! Kinda heavy, don't you think? And I was being generous IMO with the assumption of -1/2 for the Limited Effect.

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Intangible

 

Let's see what it takes to build your normal Desolidification:

[120 Active]

[80 Real]

 

Ouch! Kinda heavy, don't you think? And I was being generous IMO with the assumption of -1/2 for the Limited Effect.

Actually, this is about where I would expect Desolidification should be based on it's utility. It's a Stop Sign power, and the active point and Real Points seem to reinforce this.

 

Search for other threads where the 40 Points Desolidification is way too cheap for the utility it provides.

 

Thanks, you've reinforced what I thought in the first place. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[prestidigitator]

Re: New Power: Intangible

 

Actually, this is about where I would expect Desolidification should be based on it's utility. It's a Stop Sign power, and the active point and Real Points seem to reinforce this.

 

Search for other threads where the 40 Points Desolidification is way too cheap for the utility it provides.

 

Thanks, you've reinforced what I thought in the first place. (8^D)

No problem. Is it really only something we want available in games with 120+ AP Limits, though? That's not much fun. Besides, I even forgot the very important Reduced End Cost Advtange necessary to bring it back into the ballpark of Desolidification's current End Cost.

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Intangible

 

No problem. Is it really only something we want available in games with 120+ AP Limits' date=' though? That's not much fun. Besides, I even forgot the very important [i']Reduced End Cost[/i] Advtange necessary to bring it back into the ballpark of Desolidification's current End Cost.

This presumes that all games enforce AP Caps, which isn't true. And it might be even a minority of games where that AP Caps are actually enforced. Not mention that many AP Caps are on Attack/Defense Powers and Desolidfication isn't classified as Defense Power and neither is Intangibility. (8^D)

 

As far as the END Cost they both use the same ratio 1 END Per 10 Active Points so no difference there. Again, 4 END Per Phase is way too cheap for the utility of the power. (8^D)

 

Remember, this is all just opinion. No one saying you must use it. However, if you think there are some internal inconsistencies that need to be changed, please let me know.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[prestidigitator]

Re: New Power: Intangible

 

This presumes that all games enforce AP Caps' date=' which isn't true. And it might be even a minority of games where that AP Caps are actually enforced. Not mention that many AP Caps are on Attack/Defense Powers and Desolidfication isn't classified as Defense Power and neither is Intangibility. (8^D)[/quote']

That's why I said 120+; the '+' presumably covers the case where the AP Limits are infinite. I guess I do commonly consider Desolidification a defense Power even though it isn't technically a Defense Power.

Remember, this is all just opinion. No one saying you must use it.

True. True. I think the way that I wind up GMing Desolidification it is certainly not worth 120 Active/80 Real.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Power: Intangible

 

Let's see what it takes to build your normal Desolidification:

Physical, Energy, and Adjustment Intangibility;

[30 Base]

 

Exotic Physical (+1);

Exotic Energy (+1);

Exotic Adjustment (+1);

 

[120 Active]

 

Limited Effect: Not vs.

(-1/2);

 

[80 Real]

 

I don't think "exotic" should be an advantage, but rather an adder.

 

Physical + Exotic = 20 points

 

Energy + Exotic = 20 points

 

Physical + Energy both Exotic should be 40 points, not 60 points.

 

All 5 should not need 50 x (1+5)= 300.

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Intangible

 

I don't think "exotic" should be an advantage, but rather an adder.

 

Physical + Exotic = 20 points

 

Energy + Exotic = 20 points

 

Physical + Energy both Exotic should be 40 points, not 60 points.

 

All 5 should not need 50 x (1+5)= 300.

Okay.... done.

 

Exotic is now an Adder.

 

Now what about the movement issue. Should we hash out something more consistent?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Power: Intangible

 

Just a further thought. This needs to integrate with existing abilities and I think we have an issue there.

 

Let's say I purchase Physical Intangibility (10 points) with Exotic Effects (+10), 2 Way Mirror (+1), 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2). That's 60 points. For this investment, my character:

 

- is immune to all physical SFX attacks

- cannot be held by physical Entangles and Force Walls

- cannot be restrained by physical Grabs

- can pass freely through physical objects

 

Given this, why would anyone ever buy 75% Physical Damage reduction for the same 60 points and:

 

- take 25% damage from physical attacks

- be held by physical Entangles and Force Walls

- be restrained by physical Grabs

- be stopped by physical objects

 

Even if we made 2 way mirror a +2 advantage (and it is the ability to affect the solid world that powers this up), that's only another 20 points. Limit it with "cannot pass through solid objects (-1/4), and we get quite a bit for that extra 4 points invested.

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Intangible

 

Just a further thought. This needs to integrate with existing abilities and I think we have an issue there...

So, perhaps the base should be 15 Pts?

 

Any suggestions?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Power: Intangible

 

15 + 10 = 25 x 3 = 75, so still only 15 extra points to go from 75% reduction to 100% immunity, plus get the ability to walk through walls. Make "2 way" a +2 advantage, and now it's 100 points (+40).

 

Actually, I'm wondering whether stepping back further may be a superior approach. Rather than building what is basically an Invulnerability power with walking through walls tacked on top (really, how many Flash-based, Adjustment-based or Mental-based barriers do we encounter?), maybe we should split the two out, build a "walk through walls" power and then build the "immune to attack type X" power separately.

 

The real issue may be the Two Way Mirror adantage, however. Desolid has historically been set apart from Damage Reduction (even variant "100% damage reduction" constructs) by the fact that it removes the character from interaction with the solid world. Being basically immune to harm from most sources seems much less appealing when it restricts the character to the status of "observer". The need to pay for a +2 advantage on any attacks, rather than "+X points" (as adder or advantage) to allow all attacks to function, reinforces this "observer" role.

 

I wonder if we'd be better served by expanded Damage Reduction to get to 100% for an Invulnerability power. For all the complaints against it, desolid seems to work fairly well unless we try to make it the "invulnerability" power that doesn't restrict one's ability to interact with the solid world.

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Intangible

 

Actually' date=' I'm wondering whether stepping back further may be a superior approach. Rather than building what is basically an Invulnerability power with walking through walls tacked on top (really, how many Flash-based, Adjustment-based or Mental-based barriers do we encounter?), maybe we should split the two out, build a "walk through walls" power and then build the "immune to attack type X" power separately.[/quote']

Definately a possibility, and one I kind of alluded to with the special Movement purchase.

 

The real issue may be the Two Way Mirror adantage' date=' however. Desolid has historically been set apart from Damage Reduction (even variant "100% damage reduction" constructs) by the fact that it removes the character from interaction with the solid world. Being basically immune to harm from most sources seems much less appealing when it restricts the character to the status of "observer". The need to pay for a +2 advantage on any attacks, rather than "+X points" (as adder or advantage) to allow all attacks to function, reinforces this "observer" role.[/quote']

I certainly have no problem with this approach.

 

I wonder if we'd be better served by expanded Damage Reduction to get to 100% for an Invulnerability power. For all the complaints against it' date=' desolid seems to work fairly well unless we try to make it the "invulnerability" power that doesn't restrict one's ability to interact with the solid world.[/quote']

Again, I don't have any problem with this concept, however, keep in mind that if such an extension to Damage Reduction were ever made official, it would probably cost over 300 points. This is based on the Digital Hero article by Steve Long where he actually extended the Damage Reduction chart.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Intangible

 

So, you think that the "Two Way Mirror" option should be removed?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Power: Intangible

 

Again' date=' I don't have any problem with this concept, however, keep in mind that if such an extension to Damage Reduction were ever made official, it would probably cost over 300 points. This is based on the Digital Hero article by Steve Long where he actually extended the Damage Reduction chart.[/quote']

 

I'd likely go with the next doubling and charge 120 points for 100% Damage Reduction. The extended chart version strikes me more as saying "we shouldn't have this" (and I can see the logic for that conclusion) than "here's a reasonable costing approach".

 

I would also eliminate any reference to "resistant" exotic defenses. If you have a Flash KA, it is stopped by all Flash DEF. That would put 100% reduction for exotic attacks at 80 points.

 

Of course, that means full resistance to PD and ED costs 240 points, plus another 240 for all exotic attacks, so you'd need a pretty high point base to make this a viable concept.

 

Of course, the problem with any fixed cost absolute ability is that it's too costly to be viable in some games, and too cheap to be overlooked in others. If you're playing a game where 40d6 attacks are the norm, can you afford NOT to pay 240 points for 100% Reduction to PD and ED attacks?