Power writeup: Alter Reality, Radius Effect

[megaplayboy]

Re: Power writeup: Alter Reality, Radius Effect

 

Okay, megaplayboy: based on your description, I think I'd start with Transform as the base Power. It would either be Minor or Major Transform, depending on how sizeable you anticipate the changes being. It would probably be a small Transform, but Constant so that its effects would gradually accumulate. 0 END and Persistant may be appropriate as well.

 

IMO you'd need both Physical and Mental Transform; I know you're not supposed to throw the two of those together because Mental Transform is based on ECV, but there is published precedent in favor of making an exception, for example the talisman used by the Slug in Conquerors, Killers And Crooks. I'd also suggest adding Spiritual Transfrom - I use this to make changes to characters affecting how they relate to the rest of human society, such as adding Perks or Social Limitations. I once asked Steve Long about this, and he agreed that it was a reasonable use of Spiritual Transform

 

You'll obviously need Improved Target Group for Transform, but the size of that Advantage will depend on how wide a range of effects the user of the Power can achieve. Area Of Effect is required, perhaps MegaScaled if you want it to be that large. Based on your description I wouldn't add Selective Target - the variability in how targets are affected sounds more like something the user of the Power chooses for everyone in the area at the time he throws the Power, rather than on a person-by-person basis. Besides, for a really huge area the user would need some wicked Enhanced Targeting Sense to target everyone individually. OTOH he might have a lesser version of this Power which would be Selective Target or even non-AOE, for people who warranted his special attention.

 

How does that sound?

 

well, that's 3 linked transforms, --for 1d6, radius,MS2(city sized), imp. tgt.+1, partial effect, continuous, persistent, BOECV(most expensive first)--105 active points, plus 2 more linked at 90 active each--real cost about 225 points. The weakest version would be about 75 real point cost.

And it takes several phases to affect everything in the area(if the largest object has about 50 body/ego, about 30 phases)--at SPD 5 or 6, about a full minute or so. The weakest version might require 5 minutes to take full effect.

 

And that's without anything like invisible power effects or funky advantages like NND does Transform Body(to simulate something that only some exotic defense protects against).

 

To get it to work in about a turn, you'd need to up it to 5d6, which would cost over 1000 points.

 

It's workable, if a little pricey.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Power writeup: Alter Reality, Radius Effect

 

So, no Limitations on it?

 

Besides, you're trying to alter the nature of reality for everyone and everything within a city-sized area. Doesn't sound like that should be cheap.

[Basil]

Re: Power writeup: Alter Reality, Radius Effect

 

Could it be done with Selective Targeting in an AOE' date=' with Variable Effects?[/quote']

5th Ed., p/178:

VARIABLE SPECIAL EFFECTS:...

If a Power with Variable Special Effects also has the Advantages Autofire, Area of Effect, or Explosion, all shots fired must use the same special effect and all targets must be affected by the same special effect; the character cannot vary the special effect from shot to shot or target to target.

p.154, under Transform:

Area of Effect, Explosion: Transforms with these Advantages must Transform all targets within the area into the same object; different targets cannot be Transformed into different objects.

 

So unless you want to get deep into GM's-permission territory, that won't work.

 

In fact, I can't see any way to do what the OP wants, except by GM's fiat.

 

Well, there's one way that's nearly legal: buy mumble-mumble copies of Transform, Improved Result Group, AoE Selective, (etc., etc.), and set off all of them at once, as a Multiple-Power Attack. Since each is a separate Transform you can change each victim to something else. This requires the GM to allow targeting the same AoE, but Selecting a (single?) different victim in each, and calling it OK under the rule regarding Multiple-Power Attacks that all Powers must target the same target.

 

That is, the AoE's completely overlap (as required for MPA's), but each Selects a different thing-to-Transform. This is borderline illegal, and requires the GM's permission.

 

At least, that's my interpretation. YMMV.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Power writeup: Alter Reality, Radius Effect

 

So' date=' no Limitations on it? [/quote']

well, that depends on the context of it--if it's a lengthy ritual, it might be pretty cheap; if it's a member of the "Pif" Collective snapping their fingers, it's probably on the pricey side.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Power writeup: Alter Reality, Radius Effect

 

5th Ed., p/178:

 

p.154, under Transform:

 

 

So unless you want to get deep into GM's-permission territory, that won't work.

 

In fact, I can't see any way to do what the OP wants, except by GM's fiat.

 

Well, there's one way that's nearly legal: buy mumble-mumble copies of Transform, Improved Result Group, AoE Selective, (etc., etc.), and set off all of them at once, as a Multiple-Power Attack. Since each is a separate Transform you can change each victim to something else. This requires the GM to allow targeting the same AoE, but Selecting a (single?) different victim in each, and calling it OK under the rule regarding Multiple-Power Attacks that all Powers must target the same target.

 

That is, the AoE's completely overlap (as required for MPA's), but each Selects a different thing-to-Transform. This is borderline illegal, and requires the GM's permission.

 

At least, that's my interpretation. YMMV.

 

which is kinda why I avoided transform and gravitated toward a funky version of XDM UAA.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Power writeup: Alter Reality, Radius Effect

 

Whew. I'd much rather a Change Environment than Transform. I'd likely be cheaper in the end anyway.

[Basil]

Re: Power writeup: Alter Reality, Radius Effect

 

Another idea occured to me.

 

If you have Chessboards: The Planes of Possibility this is easier to explain. However....

 

A plane is any distinct area/volume in which the nature of reality (aka the laws of nature) is different from that in the surrounding area. A plane does not have to be as big as a "universe," a solar system, or even an entire world/planet. E.g., Wonderland (of Alice in...) was as big as a good-sized English estate, and Lilliput was a smallish island. As well (as the last example shows) it may be possible to get from one plane to another by physical travel.

 

Thus, it seems to me, what you want to do, megaplayboy, is create a plane (aka "dimension" in HeroGames-speak), by replacing a piece of an existant plane. That sort of thing should (IMO) take that sort of power mega-gods have, and should be extremely hard even for them.

 

However, if you insist on a write-up {} I'd do it as a Transform with AoE, Mega-Scale and all that, and (IMO) have to effect the BODY of each distiguishable object in the AoE added together, rather than the BODY of the total mass.

 

I mean that it would be ONE Transform (Current Reality To The Reality I Want) but the BODY you need to effect is the BODY of every "thing," added together. Which is going to be a heck of a lot; for example, how many bushes,with 1 BODY each, do you think there will be? How many birds, mice, voles, etc. with 1 BODY each? So on and so forth....

 

Of course, if you're making any substantial changes to the laws of nature (magic works, everyone does what I tell them to, the sky is green and the grass is blue), I would say that reality itself has (for the purposes of this spell) BODY as well. And a **** of a lot of it!

 

BTW, the "things coming here slowly change to fit, things leaving slowly change back" bit could be considered part of the area being a new plane, and not have to be paid for as part of the Power.

 

As always, YMMV.

[The Souljourner]

Re: Power writeup: Alter Reality, Radius Effect

 

I think basil has summed it up here pretty well. The power you're asking for should cost a crapload of points, because it is insanely powerful.

 

In my mind, if you have to resort to XDM, you're trying to do something too powerful for too cheap. XDM is never the answer.

 

-Nate

[megaplayboy]

Re: Power writeup: Alter Reality, Radius Effect

 

Well, except when Steve Long does it to write up a wish spell for 3 points.

 

100d6 KA, NND Does Body(vs. force field), AE Radius, MS20 or so, Personal immunity, affects desolid...

 

costs 15,000 active points and completely destroys the universe more or less instantly.

 

so I'd expect an instant makeover of reality on a universe-wide scale to have an active point cost in that ballpark.

 

But in this case, we're talking about a much more modest ballpark:)

[prestidigitator]

Re: Power writeup: Alter Reality, Radius Effect

 

I think basil has summed it up here pretty well. The power you're asking for should cost a crapload of points, because it is insanely powerful.

 

In my mind, if you have to resort to XDM, you're trying to do something too powerful for too cheap. XDM is never the answer.

I disagree. XDM is the answer if the power is truly about moving between dimensions. If what you are doing is really taking part of our world and (for example) moving it to the, "Elemental Plane of Fire," for a time, then XDM could certainly be the solution. The downside is that things aren't going to be directly under your control; things are going to work the way the GM has decided the Elemental Plane of Fire works.

 

EDIT: And that might not mean that everything takes fire damage. It might mean the temperature rises quite a bit and there are roving fire elementals all about. It is going to be up to the GM, not the player/character.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Power writeup: Alter Reality, Radius Effect

 

House of M altered the back stories and current state of being of about 200 major Marvel characters' date=' all over the world. It wasn't one simple effect; it was essentially 200 different individual effects, subsumed under one power.[/quote']

I was under the impression that House of M was an alternate timeline, not a change to the main Marvel Universe. But like I said, I haven't read it.

 

However, if you insist on a write-up {} I'd do it as a Transform with AoE, Mega-Scale and all that, and (IMO) have to effect the BODY of each distiguishable object in the AoE added together, rather than the BODY of the total mass.

 

I mean that it would be ONE Transform (Current Reality To The Reality I Want) but the BODY you need to effect is the BODY of every "thing," added together. Which is going to be a heck of a lot; for example, how many bushes,with 1 BODY each, do you think there will be? How many birds, mice, voles, etc. with 1 BODY each? So on and so forth....

I don't see why all the BODYs need to be added together. If you do a AE Transform: People into Frogs, you apply the effect dice to each individual person, you don't add all their bodies together. If you roll 20 points of effect, all people in the area with 10 or less BODY turn into frogs. The same would apply to the power that megaplayboy describes.

 

And if you're making the sky green and the grass blue, I'd usually just call that SFX (or CE/Images at most), unless it has some significant game effect.

 

I disagree. XDM is the answer if the power is truly about moving between dimensions. If what you are doing is really taking part of our world and (for example) moving it to the' date=' "Elemental Plane of Fire," for a time, then XDM could certainly be the solution. The downside is that things aren't going to be directly under your control; things are going to work the way the GM has decided the Elemental Plane of Fire works.[/quote']

Good point! That's another valid way to go. The GM will have to approve the existence of the destination dimention, of course. But you could easily have a dimention like that: It has XYZ properties and anything brought into the dimention from another dimention (such as New York City) gradually changes to conform to the new dimention. Presumably, it can gradually change back if and when it's brought back to our world.

[Basil]

Re: Power writeup: Alter Reality, Radius Effect

 

However, if you insist on a write-up {} I'd do it as a Transform with AoE, Mega-Scale and all that, and (IMO) have to effect the BODY of each distiguishable object in the AoE added together, rather than the BODY of the total mass.

 

I mean that it would be ONE Transform (Current Reality To The Reality I Want) but the BODY you need to effect is the BODY of every "thing," added together. Which is going to be a heck of a lot; for example, how many bushes,with 1 BODY each, do you think there will be? How many birds, mice, voles, etc. with 1 BODY each? So on and so forth....

I don't see why all the BODYs need to be added together. If you do a AE Transform: People into Frogs, you apply the effect dice to each individual person, you don't add all their bodies together. If you roll 20 points of effect, all people in the area with 10 or less BODY turn into frogs. The same would apply to the power that megaplayboy describes.

I would do it that way for two reasons:

 

1) The power is not trying to turn every thing in the AoE into the same thing (e.g., persons into frogs), it is trying to turn the entirety of "TheThingsThatAreThere" into a different "TheThingsThatAreThere." So, it seems to me, the BODY of everything must be taken into account, either by adding the BODY of each&every thing, or by using the mass of the totallity as the basis of the BODY (via the chart on p.304), while making allowances for things whose BODY is well above what they'd have strictly from the masses---which gets you well towards the first choice.

 

2) Game balance. This ought to be (to repeat myself) the sort of things that pantheon-heading gods should have trouble with. If you'd rather it were not so expensive, then Handwavium-ing aside the requirement that every target in an AoE Transform must turn into the same thing is the way to go.

 

And if you're making the sky green and the grass blue, I'd usually just call that SFX (or CE/Images at most), unless it has some significant game effect.

Well, I was thinking of that as a sign that the rules of nature were different. If it's merely an appearance, then yes, it's SFX, or Images.

 

As always, YMMV.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Power writeup: Alter Reality, Radius Effect

 

1) Well no, but it is doing the same transformation to each thing. "Transform Things into their Altered-Reality Counterpart." In the case of the quasi-historical fantasy transform, cars get turned into horse drawn carriages, digital clocks turn into mechanical clocks or sundials or hourglasses, technology turns into magic, politicians turn into nobles, doctors turn into mystic healers, chemists turn into alchemists, airplanes turn into domesticated dragons, movie theaters turn into live theatres, etc. The Transform is still doing the same thing to everything in the affected area. Just like if you had "Transform People into People with Wings" AE it wouldn't make all the people with wings look the same, they's look just like they did before, but with wings. You wouldn't have to add all their BODY together because you're transforming Bob into Bob with Wings, and Carol into Carol with Wings, and Dave into Dave with wings.

 

2) Maybe, maybe not. megaplayboy still hasn't told us specifically what game effects this is supposed to have. It might make a huge difference, in which case it should be expensive, but then again it might be little more than a cosmetic effect with no real impact on the game other than looking impressive, in which case it shouldn't cost that much.

[Basil]

Re: Power writeup: Alter Reality, Radius Effect

 

1) Well no' date=' but it is doing the same transformation to each thing. "Transform Things into their Altered-Reality Counterpart." In the case of the quasi-historical fantasy transform, cars get turned into horse drawn carriages, digital clocks turn into mechanical clocks or sundials or hourglasses, technology turns into magic, politicians turn into nobles, doctors turn into mystic healers, chemists turn into alchemists, airplanes turn into domesticated dragons, movie theaters turn into live theatres, etc. The Transform is still doing the same thing to everything in the affected area. Just like if you had "Transform People into People with Wings" AE it wouldn't make all the people with wings look the same, they's look just like they did before, but with wings. You wouldn't have to add all their BODY together because you're transforming Bob into Bob with Wings, and Carol into Carol with Wings, and Dave into Dave with wings.[/quote']

This is one of those things we're going to have to agree to disagree about.

 

I just don't think "Altered-Reality Counterpart" is a "thing to turn into." Rather, to me, it's a category a large number of different things fall into.

 

YMMV and so forth.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Power writeup: Alter Reality, Radius Effect

 

This is one of those things we're going to have to agree to disagree about.

 

I just don't think "Altered-Reality Counterpart" is a "thing to turn into." Rather, to me, it's a category a large number of different things fall into.

 

YMMV and so forth.

Just curious:

1) Do you think "The target with wings" is a "thing to turn into"? Or do you have to buy "Transform Joe into Joe with Wings", separately from "Transform Frank into Frank with Wings"?

2) Could you buy "Transform Cars into Horses," and say that SUVs turn into Clydesdales and Mini Coopers turn into ponies?

3) Could you buy "things into blue things"? Thus turning a man into a blue man, a dog into a blue dog, a chair into a blue chair, etc.? Or is that a category of different things?

[Basil]

Re: Power writeup: Alter Reality, Radius Effect

 

This is one of those things we're going to have to agree to disagree about.

 

I just don't think "Altered-Reality Counterpart" is a "thing to turn into." Rather, to me, it's a category a large number of different things fall into.

 

YMMV and so forth.

Just curious:

1) Do you think "The target with wings" is a "thing to turn into"? Or do you have to buy "Transform Joe into Joe with Wings", separately from "Transform Frank into Frank with Wings"?

2) Could you buy "Transform Cars into Horses," and say that SUVs turn into Clydesdales and Mini Coopers turn into ponies?

3) Could you buy "things into blue things"? Thus turning a man into a blue man, a dog into a blue dog, a chair into a blue chair, etc.? Or is that a category of different things?

You've already answered your own questions (2 posts before). It seems to me you're simply

 

I said "YMMV". If you do not like my POV on this, ignore it. Please do not keep harping on it, digging for niggling details to complain about. It wastes your time and mine.

 

I believe the original poster's questions have been covered. I will absent myself from this thread before it turns ugly.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Power writeup: Alter Reality, Radius Effect

 

You've already answered your own questions (2 posts before). It seems to me you're simply

Eh? I know what *my* answers to those questions are already. I was asking for your opinion. Do you not know what "Just curious" means?

 

I said "YMMV". If you do not like my POV on this, ignore it. Please do not keep harping on it, digging for niggling details to complain about. It wastes your time and mine.

What are talking about? I never said I "do not like" your POV, I was merely asking an honest question. I wanted you to clarify your POV. I am not harping or complaining.

 

I believe the original poster's questions have been covered. I will absent myself from this thread before it turns ugly.

I see no evidence that it's turning ugly. If you're planning on turning it ugly, then by all means, don't reply. But if you're interested in this discussion, as I am, I'd be happy for you to answer my questions.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Power writeup: Alter Reality, Radius Effect

 

Let's say eccentric metadeity Deus Ex Machina has started his own charity, the Grant A Wish foundation. He approaches little Timmy, the archetypical dying little kid, and asks him what he wishes for.

"I wanna be Spiderman for a day!", exclaims Timmy.

DXM then waves his hands around, snaps his fingers, and

1) transforms Timmy into Spiderman of Earth-616.

2) turns Campaign City into New York City of Earth-616.

3) turns the inhabitants of Campaign City into the inhabitants of New York City of Earth-616.

4) creates a "mental barrier" around the city which prevents anyone from wishing to enter or leave for 24 hours.

5) alters the physics of the area so that no one is at serious risk of injury or death for 24 hours.

 

How many points for that?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Power writeup: Alter Reality, Radius Effect

 

Let's say eccentric metadeity Deus Ex Machina has started his own charity, the Grant A Wish foundation. He approaches little Timmy, the archetypical dying little kid, and asks him what he wishes for.

"I wanna be Spiderman for a day!", exclaims Timmy.

DXM then waves his hands around, snaps his fingers, and

1) transforms Timmy into Spiderman of Earth-616.

2) turns Campaign City into New York City of Earth-616.

3) turns the inhabitants of Campaign City into the inhabitants of New York City of Earth-616.

4) creates a "mental barrier" around the city which prevents anyone from wishing to enter or leave for 24 hours.

5) alters the physics of the area so that no one is at serious risk of injury or death for 24 hours.

 

How many points for that?

Mental Illusions. Done.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Power writeup: Alter Reality, Radius Effect

 

Mental Illusions. Done.

"Deus Ex Machina doesn't go in for that sort of thing...":p