Sudden impulses - the interaction between system and emotion

[Robyn]

Re: Sudden impulses - the interaction between system and emotion

 

You're missing one critical step there - Does the character see Goblin's as something even remotely worth protecting ... has the "dehumanization" become so total that even a goblin child is merely "a smaller goblin that squishes easier"

 

In other words, you're suggesting a "common humanity" package of 0-point ("weak") Psych Limits that the character was brought up with, has had their whole life; hatred so strong as to "dehumanize" the character actually provides therapy to "adjust" those Psych Limits to exclude goblins, or perhaps only include humans.

 

In the case of Vorbal's example, the Psych Limit is already defined narrowly enough to not include spiders. Obviously, in my own example goblin children were recognized as such and this led to a conflict.

 

The two Psych Lim's you site may be mutually exclusive in that one has no effect on the other. It's not enough to just know the Psych Lim's written down (especially AS written down). You need the whole character's psychological profile factored in' date=' situal issues, et cetera.[/quote']

 

In other words, the SFX matters too? Yes, that's why the question of how the character came to have such a Disad is important. But requiring inspirational stories from the players to justify their Disads when buying them during play isn't part of the mechanic proper. That sort of thing must be done through roleplaying. It's just up to the individual GM how much roleplaying is necessary to justify what level of Disads. I also plan to maintain "game balance", i.e., keep things simple by discouraging the players from creating a complicated web of Disads (one for every new situation they come across), using the old "Joe Average & Flesh Golem" technique, but again that's a campaign rule (YCMV).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sudden impulses - the interaction between system and emotion

 

In other words, you're suggesting a "common humanity" package of 0-point ("weak") Psych Limits that the character was brought up with, has had their whole life; hatred so strong as to "dehumanize" the character actually provides therapy to "adjust" those Psych Limits to exclude goblins, or perhaps only include humans.

 

In the case of Vorbal's example, the Psych Limit is already defined narrowly enough to not include spiders. Obviously, in my own example goblin children were recognized as such and this led to a conflict.

 

You should read up on modern military training techniques. They do just that sort of dehumanization to overcome the basic human instinct of "don't kill other humans" that the majority of the population has. Removing the object even further by making it not actually human (same species) makes it easier to break taht barrier - if it even exists in the first place.

 

So yes - that "Don't hurt kids" Psych Lim may not even come into play regarding the "Kill Goblins" Psych Lim simply due to the fact the Goblins aren't something the person even recognizes as 'human' or 'worth saving.'

 

In other words' date=' the SFX matters too? Yes, that's why the question of [i']how[/i] the character came to have such a Disad is important. But requiring inspirational stories from the players to justify their Disads when buying them during play isn't part of the mechanic proper. That sort of thing must be done through roleplaying. It's just up to the individual GM how much roleplaying is necessary to justify what level of Disads. I also plan to maintain "game balance", i.e., keep things simple by discouraging the players from creating a complicated web of Disads (one for every new situation they come across), using the old "Joe Average & Flesh Golem" technique, but again that's a campaign rule (YCMV).

 

SFX always matters. If you don't want SFX to matter may I suggest a board game or a hack'n'slash RPG.

 

Why would you discourage players from making a complicated web of disad's and such? That seems like it would be full of story potential. You can't Force game balance beyond the basics of "points used" for the simple fact that roleplaying should create an interesting story where 'balance' has no quantifiable meaning.

[Robyn]

Re: Sudden impulses - the interaction between system and emotion

 

Why would you discourage players from making a complicated web of disad's and such? That seems like it would be full of story potential.

 

Well, for one, it could make "figuring out what my character wants to do next" even more time-consuming than a HERO battle I'm planning to restrict the number of Disads that can be applied, though, in "rushed" situations; the amount of commitments your mind can process, and therefore the amount you can take into consideration, are limited by the speed of your mind, or Intelligence. That, and a random diceroll to see what pops into your mind during that split second of decision, should encourage people to not try and make everything "the most important thing for their character". Also, if you do have time to consider it, you can't do anything until you've taken all the points into consideration

 

You can't Force game balance beyond the basics of "points used" for the simple fact that roleplaying should create an interesting story where 'balance' has no quantifiable meaning.

 

Actually, in my campaign universe there is a quantifiable meaning to "balance"; it is metaphysically mandated. The role that these voluntary (desired) Psych Limits will be simulating are essentially your will (EGO) made manifest upon your own soul, endowed with unusual strength to ensure that you behave in certain ways (typically whatever you believe to be "good", though sometimes just what you think will always be "necessary"). The "balance" to be struck is between "so few convictions that you are basically Joe Average, undifferentiated from your fellow citizens" and "so many that the constant warring between them tears your soul apart, leaving you a malleable flesh golem, lacking all volition and caught in the agony of indecision, tormented by your inner voices, until some outside force provides you with temporary relief by giving you an order to help make up your mind". The player has to use Psych Limits (meaning, origin stories, since those are a prerequisite of taking a Psych Limit) if they want their PC to be different from the average/common NPC, but if the character accumulates too many it can be dangerous.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sudden impulses - the interaction between system and emotion

 

Well' date=' for one, it could make "figuring out what my character wants to do next" even more time-consuming than a HERO battle I'm planning to restrict the number of Disads that can be applied, though, in "rushed" situations; the amount of commitments your mind can process, and therefore the amount you can take into consideration, are limited by the speed of your mind, or Intelligence. That, and a random diceroll to see what pops into your mind during that split second of decision, should encourage people to not try and make [i']everything[/i] "the most important thing for their character". Also, if you do have time to consider it, you can't do anything until you've taken all the points into consideration

 

 

 

Actually, in my campaign universe there is a quantifiable meaning to "balance"; it is metaphysically mandated. The role that these voluntary (desired) Psych Limits will be simulating are essentially your will (EGO) made manifest upon your own soul, endowed with unusual strength to ensure that you behave in certain ways (typically whatever you believe to be "good", though sometimes just what you think will always be "necessary"). The "balance" to be struck is between "so few convictions that you are basically Joe Average, undifferentiated from your fellow citizens" and "so many that the constant warring between them tears your soul apart, leaving you a malleable flesh golem, lacking all volition and caught in the agony of indecision, tormented by your inner voices, until some outside force provides you with temporary relief by giving you an order to help make up your mind". The player has to use Psych Limits (meaning, origin stories, since those are a prerequisite of taking a Psych Limit) if they want their PC to be different from the average/common NPC, but if the character accumulates too many it can be dangerous.

That's one way of looking at it...

 

I'll take one of my characters as an example of Psychological Limitations, they have the following:

Fear Of Crowds

Technophobic

Curious

Little Regard For Life (one step lower than Casual Killer)

Emotionally Withdrawn

 

All of them are "Strong" accept the Fear Of Crowds which has been slowly bought down to "Moderate" but tends to spike back up under stress to "Strong"

 

Given a situation I know exactly which ones tend to override choices... Given a choice between fullfilling Curious and trying to overcome Technophobia the fear tends to win out for a time - until they just can't ignore the pull of learning something. This can take days in Game Time.

 

The Fear Of Crowds used to be an overriding factor in everything, often bringing out the near Casual Killer state - guns have been drawn in public places before cooler heads prevailed, or at least ushered the character away from the noise and people.

 

Any and all of the character's choices have been done in split seconds (maybe I just think fast...) - I would seriously reconsider bringing this combination of Disads into a game where die rolls or some chart dictated how a Psych Lim would play out vs another Psych Lim (especially since the Little Regard For Life and Fear Of Crowds are actually linked psychosis in the character, one stemming from the other due to backstory), and the Technophobia and Emotionally Withdrawn both come from that Fear Of Crowds as well, and are also linked. In fact, only the characters underlying need to Learn (Curiosity) actually draws them out to a point where the other four disads come into play at all, otherwise they'd be locked in their home and not doing much of anything.

 

It's all one big psychological mess to create a person who is trying to cope with a world that - quite frankly - scares the crap out of them. All their decisions have been situational, taking Disads into mind but not forcing them to the forefront of the characters reality. And not worrying about some overlycoplex matrix of cross checking to see which disad overcomes/overrides which disad. I usually deal with the one Most Appropriate to the exact situation being played out - not often do more than one, almost never more than two, come into effect.

 

Why try to mechanically play out a personality when half the fun of being at the table is trying to Act and Play it out, not roll it out.

 

It's RolePlaying not RollPlaying. Get the difference?

[Robyn]

Re: Sudden impulses - the interaction between system and emotion

 

And not worrying about some overlycoplex matrix of cross checking to see which disad overcomes/overrides which disad.

 

Which is even more reason to not create such an overly complex matrix ;P

 

I usually deal with the one Most Appropriate to the exact situation being played out - not often do more than one' date=' almost never more than two, come into effect.[/quote']

 

I'd be fine if a character took, say, 20 or 30 Disads, no more than 4-6 bearing on a single situation. It's when they take 50 and start climbing into the hundreds that, I all but guarantee you, the flesh golem time will soon approach

 

There would be numerous in-character signs of that, though. Not explicit warnings, necessarily, but - then - that's the danger of playing around with your own mind. The more often you ignore your own convictions, no matter what they are (even if you let them dictate your actions at some other time), the weaker they become.

 

It's RolePlaying not RollPlaying. Get the difference?

 

This is the second time you've implied that I hold mechanics over RP. For the record, the SFX are my first concern but have no place in a question about the mechanics, and the proposals I've laid out specifically exclude "rolling one Disad versus another" in favor of straight mutual cancellation with no dice at all.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Sudden impulses - the interaction between system and emotion

 

Well, for one, it could make "figuring out what my character wants to do next" even more time-consuming than a HERO battle I'm planning to restrict the number of Disads that can be applied, though, in "rushed" situations; the amount of commitments your mind can process, and therefore the amount you can take into consideration, are limited by the speed of your mind, or Intelligence. That, and a random diceroll to see what pops into your mind during that split second of decision, should encourage people to not try and make everything "the most important thing for their character". Also, if you do have time to consider it, you can't do anything until you've taken all the points into consideration

 

You're making this much, much harder than it really is. You have a character. That character has aspects of his or her personality which inluence his or her responses to situations. You roleplay those responses accordingly. There's no need to carefully pore over the list of Psych Lims on the character sheet and evaluate each one for applicability and degree of influence--just do what the character would do.

 

That's what roleplaying is about.

 

Here's an example: in a recent session of a BESM d20/ D&D game, I had my magical girl character spend an entire fight trying to get people to stop fighting. There is nothing on her character sheet that indicates that she had to do that. I did it simply because she's a caring person that doesn't want to see people get hurt if she can help it. I didn't need a die roll to tell me what she'd do; I simply had the character act in accordance with her personality and motivations.

 

Psych Lims are just a formal way of noting some of a character's personality traits and motivations.

 

Zeropoint

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sudden impulses - the interaction between system and emotion

 

This is the second time you've implied that I hold mechanics over RP. For the record' date=' the SFX are my first concern but [i']have no place in a question about the mechanics[/i], and the proposals I've laid out specifically exclude "rolling one Disad versus another" in favor of straight mutual cancellation with no dice at all.

By trying to figure which Psych Lim "weighs" more than which other Psych Lim you have firmly stepped into "RollPlaying" and trumping SFX with Mechanics. You're DEEP into that arena.

 

Characters, real people as well, can be made up of seemingly contradictive psychological urges and impulses. What they do in one situation one time may be done a completely different way in a similar situation another time.

 

Rolling For Disads or even Mutual Cancellation is definitely ROLLPLAYING.

 

ROLEPLAYING would be the PLAYER looking at a situation as the Character and simply choosing an action - it may look to contradict one Psych Lim, but fullfill another - let's say it contradicted a Strong Lim in favor of a Moderate Lim. All that means was that in that particular instance the Moderate Limitation seemed to hold more bearing for the Character than the Strong one did, for whatever reason.

 

People are impulsive, it's to be expected. Don't strait jacket them into always moving to favor one Limitation over another in every instance they come to both meet a situations requirement. Usually the "strong" will outweight the "moderate" but not always and there should be no quatifiable approach to figure out when each occurs. I don't want a mathematical approach to handling the character - I want an emotional one, and emotions aren't always rational.

 

The only time a Psych Lim should always outweight another is when it is a TOTAL. Because that is really one step below a Physical Limitation that the character can't overcome through roleplaying.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Sudden impulses - the interaction between system and emotion

 

By trying to figure which Psych Lim "weighs" more than which other Psych Lim you have firmly stepped into "RollPlaying" and trumping SFX with Mechanics. You're DEEP into that arena.

 

 

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ghost-angel again.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Sudden impulses - the interaction between system and emotion

 

This is the second time you've implied that I hold mechanics over RP. For the record' date=' the SFX are my first concern but [i']have no place in a question about the mechanics[/i], and the proposals I've laid out specifically exclude "rolling one Disad versus another" in favor of straight mutual cancellation with no dice at all.

 

There is another option. It's called something like, "Trust your players to roleplay their characters" or (as I like to put it) "Let the playa play." If someone starts to step over the line or ignore their PsychLims, you can have a private word with them; ask if they'd like to re-evaluate their Disads or perhaps even play a different character.

 

If you can't trust your players to play their characters without heavy-handed GM intervention, why would you even bother having players at all? Just go write a story. You'll be much more satisfied, and so too will your players.

[Robyn]

Re: Sudden impulses - the interaction between system and emotion

 

I'll combine responses here because some of you are cancelling out each other's points ;P

 

By trying to figure which Psych Lim "weighs" more than which other Psych Lim you have firmly stepped into "RollPlaying" and trumping SFX with Mechanics. You're DEEP into that arena.

 

This statement is so ludicrous that I'm having trouble even believing you actually meant it. Trying to figure out how to use one aspect of the mechanics of the game, to cancel out another manifestation of the same aspect of the mechanics of the game, is somehow trumping SFX with these mechanics? Only if you equate mechanics with SFX in the first place, and I honestly don't believe (from reading your other posts, and seeing as how it would undermine your own position here) that you consider roleplaying to be nothing more than mechanics.

 

For the record, the whole point of using a mechanic that allows Psych Limits to "negate other Psych Lims" (funny word, that) is to let those mechanics cancel each other out, leaving roleplaying free to determine actions instead of having to roll against both those Psych Lims.

 

Yes, it actually decreases dice-rolling and gives the character more freedom to act as their "roleplaying" indicates. I don't see how that is in any way "trumping SFX with mechanics".

 

Rolling For Disads or even Mutual Cancellation is definitely ROLLPLAYING.

 

And here, for a moment, I thought you might actually have understood what I was saying. But, no - here, you talk about "rolling" for Mutual Cancellation, and I've specifically stated that:

 

At no time are any dice rolled for negation.

 

There, that make it clear enough for you? As for "rolling for Disads", the very fact that I've begun this whole thread as a way to create a mechanic that lets roleplaying combat Disads should indicate more than clearly enough that the Disads are the last thing to rule the character, and roleplaying is the first thing.

 

You're making this much, much harder than it really is. You have a character. That character has aspects of his or her personality which inluence his or her responses to situations. You roleplay those responses accordingly. There's no need to carefully pore over the list of Psych Lims on the character sheet and evaluate each one for applicability and degree of influence--just do what the character would do.

 

That's what roleplaying is about.

 

Sounds like a cop-out to me. Here's an example: your PC has a Code vs. Killing, Total. In play you casually declare that you're going to kill the downed villain to make sure they never bother anyone again. In most games, the GM would be well within their rights to ask if you're forgetting to take into account your own CvK.

 

But the way you word this makes it seem as if that's allright, because the player is "just doing it".

 

Psych Lims are just a formal way of noting some of a character's personality traits and motivations.

 

Why not just leave them as roleplaying, then? It's as I explained here, the Psych Limits are manifestations of your will made manifest upon your mind, convictions forged by EGO that you wish to permanently imprint upon your soul. If the player wants to take every little personality element they have, and make it a Psych Limit, they'll soon suffer the consequences (turning themselves into a flesh golem). I treat a Psych Limit as more solid than those fleeting and mutable (if occasionally strong) elements of personality, though; anything internal to the character that doesn't try to affect them at all times it could shouldn't be counted among those, and if they want these to be stronger than their Psych Limits, well that's what an EGO roll is for!

 

There is another option. It's called something like' date=' "Trust your players to roleplay their characters" or (as I like to put it) "Let the playa play."[/quote']

 

There's a difference between trusting them with roleplaying and handwaving every violation of the rules. I went over this near the beginning of this thread: I don't want to make it all system or all roleplaying, I want to have both and I'm just looking for a fair way of handling their interaction. I guarantee you, this will not mean "Ya'll can roleplay however ya want, so feel free to just take some Psych Lims as free points if ya can't think of enough that would fit yer PC, them Psych Lims don't matter none anyway if ya know how ta RP your PC."

 

If you can't trust your players to play their characters without heavy-handed GM intervention' date=' why would you even bother having players at all?[/quote']

 

This is the part that is answered by another post:

 

Here's an example: in a recent session of a BESM d20/ D&D game' date=' I had my magical girl character spend an entire fight trying to get people to stop fighting. [i']There is nothing on her character sheet that indicates that she had to do that.[/i] I did it simply because she's a caring person that doesn't want to see people get hurt if she can help it. I didn't need a die roll to tell me what she'd do; I simply had the character act in accordance with her personality and motivations.

 

Why can't the players trust themselves to play their own character without heavy-handed Psych Lim intervention? I've certainly established that roleplaying is more than sufficient. Why would they want to make every single desire/thought/feeling/goal the character has into a Psych Limit? Psychological Limitations are for a different level than mere roleplaying; they're for when you want your character to have this constant pressure on them to always do this.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sudden impulses - the interaction between system and emotion

 

And here, for a moment, I thought you might actually have understood what I was saying. But, no - here, you talk about "rolling" for Mutual Cancellation, and I've specifically stated that:

 

At no time are any dice rolled for negation.

No I understand... I'm telling you that comparing the Disad's like you propose is equally as bad as rolling dice.

 

Did you miss the word "or" in my statement. Here I'll repeat it with emphasis:

 

Rolling For Disads or even Mutual Cancellation is definitely ROLLPLAYING.

 

do you see now? or. either one. Not the same. Different Mechanics. Two Choices.

 

both wrong.

 

Disadvantages, Psych Lim's being one of the many types, are guidelines that the GM and Player use so they know which situations may cause some form of introspective thought, internal conflict... or on an even more base level that can be used by the GM as a guideline to determine what kind of situations a Player might like to act out via their Character.

 

Once they are down they are guidelines to be used to create a Story.

 

Their frequency is a good guide to how often the Player sees the Character acting out upon this Instinct or Emotion, how strong they consider it to be within the Personality Template, or how often the situation is likely to come up within the Game as determined by the GM (and Player by cooperative extension). The Strength is how commited the Character is to following that particular personality trait - from Moderate (it might come to the front of a situation, it may simply be a rough guide to thought process) to Total (that character is fully commited to this trait at the cost of almost all other options.

 

Personality Trait conflicts equate to good story, roleplaying possiblities and possibly show that a character can be at odds with their taught beliefs and personal moral compass.

 

They should not be looked at, and then compared with the "Well, this one is Strong, and this one Moderate so the Strong one has to win out." midnset. That's ROLLPLAYING.

 

Everything should be taken Case By Case and decided based on how the Player feels the Character should be acting in accordance with their personality, the situation at hand and even whim.

 

If a Player is not acting out a Character as the Disad's they have chosen may dictate (or the GM feels they aren't) then the GM and Player should sit down and evaluate what it written down so the GM has a better understanding of how the Player envisions the Character actually being played.

 

You remind me of all those "alignment" arguements I would get into with various groups over the years playing DnD. I hate forced Alignment actions - no one actually lives like that all the time. Likewise Psych Lim's don't always dictate a players actions - they may willfully disregard their own "programming" and force change upon themselves. With or without an EGO Roll at that - it may just make for good story. It's up to the Player.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sudden impulses - the interaction between system and emotion

 

Why not just leave them as roleplaying' date=' then? It's as I explained here, the Psych Limits are manifestations of your will made manifest upon your mind, convictions forged by EGO that you wish to permanently imprint upon your soul. If the player wants to take every little personality element they have, and make it a Psych Limit, they'll soon suffer the consequences (turning themselves into a flesh golem). I treat a Psych Limit as more solid than those fleeting and mutable (if occasionally strong) elements of personality, though; anything internal to the character that doesn't try to affect them at all times it could shouldn't be counted among those, and if they want these to be stronger than their Psych Limits, well that's what an EGO roll is for!

WTF? imprint upon their soul...

 

Well I found the disconnect here.

 

Most of us view Psych Lim's as those personality traits which are strongest in the character - or even simply those that which can be used to manipulate the character.

 

A Character, I would hope, has many many many more personality traits that come into play when making a decision, whether they are Psych Lim's written down for points or not.

 

You know, like a real person.

[Robyn]

Re: Sudden impulses - the interaction between system and emotion

 

Did you miss the word "or" in my statement. Here I'll repeat it with emphasis:

 

Rolling For Disads or even Mutual Cancellation is definitely ROLLPLAYING.

 

do you see now? or. either one. Not the same. Different Mechanics. Two Choices.

 

The syntax is ambiguous at best, but I thought it to be quite clear:

 

"[Rolling For] Disads or even Mutual Cancellation is definitely ROLLPLAYING."

 

If you'd wanted to restrict the possible interpretations, you could have put "mutual cancellation" before the "rolling for Disads":

 

"Mutual Cancellation or Rolling For Disads is definitely ROLLPLAYING."

 

See how clear that is? No chance of mistaking the "Rolling" part for something that is intended, grammatically, to apply to both the following actions.

 

Disadvantages' date=' Psych Lim's being one of the many types, are guidelines that the GM and Player use so they know which situations may cause some form of introspective thought, internal conflict... or on an even more base level that can be used by the GM as a guideline to determine what kind of situations a Player might like to act out via their Character.[/quote']

 

All of which can be done through player-GM communication. I see no need to require a mechanic for something that only has to do with the Story.

 

Personality Trait conflicts equate to good story' date=' roleplaying possiblities and possibly show that a character can be at odds with their taught beliefs and personal moral compass.[/quote']

 

None of which we need to stat out.

 

They should not be looked at' date=' and then compared with the "Well, this one is Strong, and this one Moderate so the Strong one has to win out." midnset. That's ROLLPLAYING.[/quote']

 

The EGO ("free", "unassigned", "floating", "reserve", will of the character) can be used to augment the Moderate one to overcome the Strong. The whole point of imprinting your will upon your soul as a Psych Limit is so that it will be a part of you even when your volitional will is low.

 

Everything should be taken Case By Case and decided based on how the Player feels the Character should be acting in accordance with their personality' date=' the situation at hand and even whim.[/quote']

 

The personality can be roleplayed - it doesn't have to be expressed in Psych Limits. The situation at hand can provide modifiers to any applicable rolls, and context for which Psych Limits would or wouldn't apply. Whim is volitional will, or an EGO roll.

 

I hate forced Alignment actions - no one actually lives like that all the time.

 

Which is exactly why most aspects of a character's personality should remain just that - as part of their roleplayed personality - and not be taken as a Psych Limit.

 

Likewise Psych Lim's don't always dictate a players actions - they may willfully disregard their own "programming" and force change upon themselves. With or without an EGO Roll at that - it may just make for good story. It's up to the Player.

 

No, that would be up to the Avatar of Story, who may (at its discretion) grant them bonuses or penalties. But the player can ask.

 

WTF? imprint upon their soul...

 

Well I found the disconnect here.

 

Most of us view Psych Lim's as those personality traits which are strongest in the character - or even simply those that which can be used to manipulate the character.

 

For my purposes, it's as I explained them to be here.

 

A Character' date=' I would hope, has many many many more personality traits that come into play when making a decision, whether they are Psych Lim's written down for points or not.[/quote']

 

Thank you. That is exactly what I've been saying all along. (Except that they're all under the aegis of a character's "discretionary willpower", unless the player wants to bring it out with an origin story and make it a full Disad.)

 

As for "points", the campaign rules specifically note that there will be no "point limit" on characters (one could cost seven hundred points while another came out at three thousand), so there's no reason other than compulsory habit (Psych Lim: Player must always take half their base point value in Disads, Frequent, Total?) to take personality traits as full Psychological Limitations.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Sudden impulses - the interaction between system and emotion

 

There is another option. It's called something like' date=' "Trust your players to roleplay their characters" or (as I like to put it) "Let the playa play."[/quote']

There's a difference between trusting them with roleplaying and handwaving every violation of the rules. I went over this near the beginning of this thread: I don't want to make it all system or all roleplaying, I want to have both and I'm just looking for a fair way of handling their interaction. I guarantee you, this will not mean "Ya'll can roleplay however ya want, so feel free to just take some Psych Lims as free points if ya can't think of enough that would fit yer PC, them Psych Lims don't matter none anyway if ya know how ta RP your PC."

 

I thought I had that covered when I continued by saying:

 

If someone starts to step over the line or ignore their PsychLims, you can have a private word with them; ask if they'd like to re-evaluate their Disads or perhaps even play a different character.

 

I don't think you need a mechanistic system to keep your players from going "over the line." You just need strong communication between GM and players.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Sudden impulses - the interaction between system and emotion

 

Sounds like a cop-out to me. Here's an example: your PC has a Code vs. Killing, Total. In play you casually declare that you're going to kill the downed villain to make sure they never bother anyone again. In most games, the GM would be well within their rights to ask if you're forgetting to take into account your own CvK.

 

But the way you word this makes it seem as if that's allright, because the player is "just doing it".

 

Absolutely not. I really don't see how you inferred that from my post. A player who gives his character a Total CVK and then casually kills a fallen foe is NOT roleplaying his character properly. The character wouldn't do that, and if the player is "doing what the character would do", he wouldn't choose that action. In my experience, most players can roleplay their characters without constant supervision from the GM or game-mechanical behavior restraints.

 

If that's a phenomenon you haven't seen in your players, it might explain some of the disconnet that's happening here.

 

Why not just leave them as roleplaying, then?

 

1) To reward players for creating a more fully realized character

 

2) To provide a framework for the interaction of mind control powers with opposing convictions or desires

 

It's as I explained here, the Psych Limits are manifestations of your will made manifest upon your mind, convictions forged by EGO that you wish to permanently imprint upon your soul.

 

. . .

 

That's a very unconventional view, to say the least, and DEFINITELY not how I think about Psych Lims.

 

Why can't the players trust themselves to play their own character without heavy-handed Psych Lim intervention? I've certainly established that roleplaying is more than sufficient.

 

Most players DO. I don't, nor do I know anyone who does, take Psych Lims as a "heavy-handed...intervention" in my character's behavior.

 

I take Psych Lims to reflect how that character would already behave.

 

Character traits come FIRST and are the CAUSE of Psych Lims on the character sheet.

 

Why would they want to make every single desire/thought/feeling/goal the character has into a Psych Limit?

 

They don't. Nobody goes to that extreme.

 

Psychological Limitations are for a different level than mere roleplaying; they're for when you want your character to have this constant pressure on them to always do this.

 

No. Psych Lims are not always about "pressure". Some are--a character with "Fear Of Heights" would probably like to be rid of that Psych Lim.

 

Some aren't--a character with "Code Vs. Killing" would likely be aghast at the suggestion of removing that Psych Lim.

 

In most cases, a Psych Lim isn't about a "pressure" to act a certain way--it's about the character wanting to act that way. It's about that particular behavior coming naturally to them.

 

Zeropoint

[Vurbal]

Re: Sudden impulses - the interaction between system and emotion

 

In the case of Vorbal's example' date=' the Psych Limit is [i']already[/i] defined narrowly enough to not include spiders. Obviously, in my own example goblin children were recognized as such and this led to a conflict.

Assuming you're saying that this specific character sees goblin children as equivalent to human (or at least that the player acknowledges that the disad applies) then ghost-angel's analysis is exactly correct. The purpose of disads is to represent the character, not the other way around. Real people have many values that are in conflict with each other. Those conflicts are resolved by applying whatever reasoning seems appropriate to the situation based on an overall worldview, not based on a mathematical weighting of different beliefs. Characters should be roleplayed the same way. Occasionally that will mean ignoring one disad in favor of another that is more applicable in a given situation. If that's something that occurs often enough it may be appropriate to lower the value of certain disads. More likely it's just good roleplaying.

[Vurbal]

Re: Sudden impulses - the interaction between system and emotion

 

Thank you. That is exactly what I've been saying all along. (Except that they're all under the aegis of a character's "discretionary willpower", unless the player wants to bring it out with an origin story and make it a full Disad.)

 

As for "points", the campaign rules specifically note that there will be no "point limit" on characters (one could cost seven hundred points while another came out at three thousand), so there's no reason other than compulsory habit (Psych Lim: Player must always take half their base point value in Disads, Frequent, Total?) to take personality traits as full Psychological Limitations.

So why use disads at all?

[teh bunneh]

Re: Sudden impulses - the interaction between system and emotion

 

In my experience' date=' most players can [i']roleplay[/i] their characters without constant supervision from the GM or game-mechanical behavior restraints.

 

If that's a phenomenon you haven't seen in your players, it might explain some of the disconnet that's happening here.

 

QFT.

[David Johnston]

Re: Sudden impulses - the interaction between system and emotion

 

This statement is so ludicrous that I'm having trouble even believing you actually meant it. Trying to figure out how to use one aspect of the mechanics of the game, to cancel out another manifestation of the same aspect of the mechanics of the game, is somehow trumping SFX with these mechanics?

 

More accurately, it's trumping roleplaying.

 

 

As for "points", the campaign rules specifically note that there will be no "point limit" on characters (one could cost seven hundred points while another came out at three thousand), so there's no reason other than compulsory habit (Psych Lim: Player must always take half their base point value in Disads, Frequent, Total?) to take personality traits as full Psychological Limitations.

 

And thus I renew my question. Why would the players take any?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sudden impulses - the interaction between system and emotion

 

Absolutely not. I really don't see how you inferred that from my post.

Robyn's comprehension shows a lot to be desired.

 

 

have fun with the rest of this conversation. I'm outta here.

[Robyn]

Re: Sudden impulses - the interaction between system and emotion

 

Absolutely not. I really don't see how you inferred that from my post.

 

"You have a character. That character has aspects of his or her personality which inluence his or her responses to situations. You roleplay those responses accordingly."

 

That's one thing, and quite acceptable. It's another thing entirely to say:

 

"There's no need to carefully pore over the list of Psych Lims on the character sheet and evaluate each one for applicability and degree of influence--just do what the character would do."

 

This implies that "what the character would do" is calculated without needing to consider if any Psych Limits would apply - at which point, why even have them as a Psych Limit?

 

A player who gives his character a Total CVK and then casually kills a fallen foe is NOT roleplaying his character properly.

 

Unless he just took it for the points, or something.

 

1) To reward players for creating a more fully realized character

 

I'm not understanding what sort of "reward" can't be expressed through XP bonuses for roleplaying.

 

2) To provide a framework for the interaction of mind control powers with opposing convictions or desires

 

That's exactly what I've laid out here.

 

(Well, a bit more thoroughly than just mind control powers.)

 

That's a very unconventional view' date=' to say the least, and DEFINITELY not how I think about Psych Lims.[/quote']

 

It's how I'm treating them though; I've fit them to the "power, stability, freedom - pick any two" metaphysical law that underlies my campaign setting, and that's what they'll simulate. Considering how many times I've said that this mechanic, the interaction between system and roleplaying, is meant for use in my campaign, could we please focus on how it all works if things are as I describe them, and refrain from criticisms based on how I'm not doing things?

 

Most players DO. I don't' date=' nor do I know anyone who does, take Psych Lims as a "heavy-handed...intervention" in my character's behavior.[/quote']

 

I can only see that being done if the player constantly wanted to do things that went against their own Psych Limits, and refused to accept that they couldn't constantly violate their own Psych lims. In such a case they might see this mechanic as a way of avoiding that issue; "I have a good origin story for enough new Psych Limits to overwhelm my prior established feelings on the matter."

 

They don't. Nobody goes to that extreme.

 

Exactly. So why would they suddenly want to?

 

If they overuse the mechanic like that, it will quickly get out of hand as the many Psych Limits they already have require progressively more and more new ones just to counteract them. At some point it reaches a level of stabilization where the Psych Limits are so numerous that even the most varied can't help but counteract each other to some degree, and then it's just like the player only has a handful of Psych Limits, but with a lot more bookkeeping. I want to avoid that, and there you have my answer to keyes_bill's question: the potential lack of trust that the player will roleplay their character accurately doesn't come from me as the GM; I'm not the one forcing the PC's to have Disads! If the player chooses to take those Disads, that's their choice - and if they feel the need to take 50-300 Disads, that's their problem.

 

No. Psych Lims are not always about "pressure". Some are--a character with "Fear Of Heights" would probably like to be rid of that Psych Lim.

 

Some aren't--a character with "Code Vs. Killing" would likely be aghast at the suggestion of removing that Psych Lim.

 

Phobias don't just randomly pop up. A limitation such as "Fear of Heights" likely came about from a frightening event which left the panic-stricken character desperate to avoid such situations in the future. In other words, they focused their will upon having an aversion to places they might fall from. If, in future, they decide they no longer want to be afraid of heights, they can begin taking therapy to buy it off.

 

In most cases' date=' a Psych Lim isn't about a "pressure" to act a certain way--it's about the character [i']wanting[/i] to act that way. It's about that particular behavior coming naturally to them.

 

There's a difference, though, between "natural instincts" (acting that way even without thinking about it) and "conscious values" (the first thing you think of when you take the time to ask yourself what should be done).

[Robyn]

Re: Sudden impulses - the interaction between system and emotion

 

Real people have many values that are in conflict with each other. Those conflicts are resolved by applying whatever reasoning seems appropriate to the situation based on an overall worldview' date=' not based on a mathematical weighting of different beliefs.[/quote']

 

Since those beliefs are mathematically expressed in the system, we must interact with that aspect of them mathematically. As for "reasoning", this again falls under discretionary willpower.

 

Occasionally that will mean ignoring one disad in favor of another that is more applicable in a given situation.

 

That's covered by the scope of a Disad.

 

So why use disads at all?

 

To simulate the ability of a character to make something that exists only in their conscious thoughts, part of their subconscious mind, therefore ensuring that it will apply at all times, not just when it occurs to them.

[Robyn]

Re: Sudden impulses - the interaction between system and emotion

 

More accurately' date=' it's trumping roleplaying.[/quote']

 

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

 

(Technically the word's meaning doesn't match how I've been using it either, but at least my usage is compatible with the literal definition.)

 

I'll repeat what I said before, yes, even what I said just below the section you quoted:

 

For the record, the whole point of using a mechanic that allows Psych Limits to "negate other Psych Lims" (funny word, that) is to let those mechanics cancel each other out, leaving roleplaying free to determine actions instead of having to roll against both those Psych Lims.

 

Yes, it actually decreases dice-rolling and gives the character more freedom to act as their "roleplaying" indicates. I don't see how that is in any way "trumping SFX with mechanics".

 

Change the third-to-last word to "roleplaying" and my argument stands.

 

And thus I renew my question. Why would the players take any?

 

To resist Mind Control, mental Transforms, and their own discretionary willpower in cases where their volition is insufficient or has been turned against then.

 

For example; someone Mind Controls you not into killing somebody, but into wanting to kill somebody. At that point it's not their Mind Control against your Code versus Killing, but your discretionary willpower against your Code versus Killing. This makes Mind Control more interesting, in turn, for mentalists, because they can try to figure out if the discretionary willpower in their target is weaker or stronger than the Code they're trying to overcome. It might be impossible to take on the Code directly, but possible to try for their discretionary willpower first and then assist the victim in breaking their own Code.

[Vurbal]

Re: Sudden impulses - the interaction between system and emotion

 

Since those beliefs are mathematically expressed in the system' date=' we must interact with that aspect of them mathematically. As for "reasoning", this again falls under discretionary willpower.[/quote'] There is no mathematical (or any other) relationship between multiple disads in the rules. If there is please give me a page # to find it on.

That's covered by the scope of a Disad.

Once again, please cite the page where you can find rules for which disad will be in effect if 2 or more come into conflict with each other.

To simulate the ability of a character to make something that exists only in their conscious thoughts, part of their subconscious mind, therefore ensuring that it will apply at all times, not just when it occurs to them.

The level of control that psych lims have in your description is what I would classify as mental illness. If that's what you want in your game, good for you and have fun, but you're not describing Hero rules.

[Robyn]

Re: Sudden impulses - the interaction between system and emotion

 

There is no mathematical (or any other) relationship between multiple disads in the rules.

 

I never said there was. Moreover, it's not just the disads that I want to be able to interact; it's also the roleplaying.

 

Once again' date=' please cite the page where you can find rules for which disad will be in effect if 2 or more come into conflict with each other.[/quote']

 

Not relevant, since the point you're responding to there is whether a given Disad can apply at all to a situation. That has nothing to do with whether or not other Disadvantages would also apply in a situation.

 

The level of control that psych lims have in your description is what I would classify as mental illness.

 

Again, not relevant, since we're discussing deliberate "thoughts/feelings to instincts" here, not "mental illnesses". For example, a Code versus Killing integrated on that level would not qualify as a mental illness.

 

If that's what you want in your game' date=' good for you and have fun, but you're not describing Hero rules.[/quote']

 

Please take note of the numerous times within this thread (such as in the very first post) that I have specifically stated I am trying to come up with a new mechanic to do something that would be appropriate within my game.

 

Criticisms based on "well this isn't what's in the original rules" have no place here, because I am not and never was trying to describe such mechanics.

 

My sole intent this whole time has been nothing more and nothing less than to create a new mechanic to govern the interaction between statted powers/Disads and the roleplaying we do.