Power idea: Empathic Leech (help requested statting this)

[Robyn]

Imagine, if you will, a core SFX of "good and evil", for the power to affect the good and evil of others; to raise it, and lower it; to make anyone into a monster, or a saint; but, as in all things, there must be a balance. Specifically, the power can transfer good and evil between individuals, but only where it exists in the first place, and not past the level to which it is present. Furthermore, the power is imprecise in two areas; the sensing of what degree of strength (for good and evil) is in a person, and the measure of good or evil transferred. This element of risk makes the power incredibly dangerous - to the user!

 

The power can be used as a morale booster - but from whom shall the courage be taken? If the user misjudges the reserve of courage a fellow hero has left, and/or accidentally siphons away too much of it, they may end up giving one ally the courage to stand while causing the other to suddenly develop a slight case of cowardice and run away!

 

The power can be used to calm assailants - but where will the extra aggressiveness go? If used to defend innocent hostages, one of them might suddenly turn on the kidnappers! But it's when the user tries to use their own good and evil that the true balancing act begins.

 

I say "the user" because "hero" and "villain" would not always be appropriate here. Always one of them, but draining too much good or taking in too much evil will not simply make the user a conflicted person: they will become evil (or good again), and just as reluctant to switch "alignment", as they were in the first place. Of course, accidents do happen. It's just that using other people, as opposed to oneself, is a tactical decision affected partially by whether the user is good or evil, and to what degree, and perhaps in what ways as well; except for when those other people aren't available in the first place, which forces the matter.

 

The user can't simply switch "good" and "evil"; specific motivations, or emotions (motivations or emotions, not using the two interchangeably), must be targeted, which means that the power would need to be used separately for each way in which the user desired the subject (possibly themselves) to be more or less evil or good. The power also can't be used on a group; it must be a channel existing solely between two individuals, both within close range of the user (touch would not be required, though), and if the user wishes to spread the effects through an entire group, the power must be repeated for each of the individuals within that group (keeping in mind that if you drain all of A's courage for B, there is none left for C unless you reallocate some from . The user can exert control over the degree of strength which they transfer between people; there is just a margin of error, applied after this, which can modify the amount upwards or down.

 

I envision two powers, one Transform for Psychological Limitations (long-term emotional states), and one to affect regular (fading, not lasting) "emotion". I prefer not to stat the latter, but I don't see a way around this, and that's why I've come to you for help. How can this power be used without overwhelming the natural emotions of those it would affect? Part of the concept is that it only acts on what is already there, and cannot prevent other emotions from being naturally evoked, but this means that both 1) emotions must be measured in game terms for how strongly they exist and how much of an effect they have upon the character, and 2) the power must respect the strength of those "natural" emotions.

 

I have only the vaguest idea for statting emotion. I could start with a Fade Rate for, uh, anti-Megascale (Miniscale?) on the decision-affecting level compared to Psych Limits, with the Psych Limits themselves appropriately Miniscaled if they are volitional and time is short (see my latest post, linked to above, for the product of my thoughts so far on the matter).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Power idea: Empathic Leech (help requested statting this)

 

This could be done with Mind Control and either a Side Effect or a second Linked Mind Control with "Opposite Effect of first MC Only, a different target must be chosen."

 

Mind Control is exactly the HERO Mechanic used to affect people's actions/reactions and emotions.

[Robyn]

Re: Power idea: Empathic Leech (help requested statting this)

 

This could be done with Mind Control and either a Side Effect or a second Linked Mind Control with "Opposite Effect of first MC Only, a different target must be chosen."

 

Mind Control is exactly the HERO Mechanic used to affect people's actions/reactions and emotions.

 

The rest is in SFX, then? I don't, for example, have to use a Limitation for "cannot transmit fear from subject A to subject B when subject A is not frightened"?

[David Johnston]

Re: Power idea: Empathic Leech (help requested statting this)

 

Geez you like to make things hard for yourself. If your power requires that one of your targets be emotionally agitated, then yes, that would probably be worth a -1/4. However it does mean your character isn't going to be very useful in any kind of reliable way.

[Robyn]

Re: Power idea: Empathic Leech (help requested statting this)

 

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to David Johnston again.

 

Well, I had some questions anyway.

 

Emotions are not a conserved property.

 

:raises hand: I'm not familiar with this term. Can you elucidate, please?

 

As far as the intensity goes

 

A cosmetic Transform would give your victims a moderate psychological limitation or remove one.

 

Do you think a discount would be appropriate (on the cost of the dice of Transform) if the strength of the emotion wouldn't qualify for a Disadvantage?

 

Or, wait: I think I'm starting to get the hang of this.

 

A cumulative Transform with 1/2d6 or less of effect, basically one point per unit of emotion transferred (because the system doesn't let us go lower). The SFX of the emotion can be roleplayed out, up to the point where it's strong enough to qualify as a minor Disadvantage.

 

The reversion condition for the Transform is a slow fade rate.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Power idea: Empathic Leech (help requested statting this)

 

Transform doesn't FADE, it Heals. A standard Heal is the BODY REC Rate, (REC/Month of BODY). If you want it faster a Limitation on the Transform can bring it down.

 

To add or subtract abilities you need either Minor or Major Transform (Cosmetic Transform would NOT cover this, Cosmetic is for things like Changing the color of an object). Minor would probably be just fine for temporary Emotional changes and nudges (like making someone Angry). Major is usually used to add full Disadvantages (giving them a CvK FrEx).

 

Transform is inherently cumulative.

 

Emotional Shift: Minor Transform 2D6, From any one Emotion to any Other Emotion, Heals back at REC BODY/Hour (-1) [20AP, 10RP]

 

As for transfering Emotions, yes you would need to add a Limitation of "Cannot transfer Fear from unafraid targets," even if that's a -0 Limitation. It all depends on what you think that value is worth in the Campaign.

 

The SFX of the Emotion, and resultant shift, is all Roleplayed out. This is the kind of thing that seperates the good RPers from the bad ones.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Power idea: Empathic Leech (help requested statting this)

 

:raises hand: I'm not familiar with this term. Can you elucidate, please?

 

It's physics lingo. A "conserved property" is something that there is always, by definition, the same amount of before, during, and after any event. A brief look at collisions will illustrate the difference between a conserved and an non-conserved property:

 

In any collision, momentum is conserved. What that means mathematically is that if you find the momentum of every object before the collision (mass times velocity--note that momentum is a vector) and add it all up, that's the same amount of momentum that will exist after the collision. Naturally, the momentum of any particular object may change, but the total momentum will not. This is true regardless of whether the collision is perfectly elastic, perfectly inelastic, or somewhere in between.

 

Example: two blocks of putty, each exactly one kilogram, are on a collision course. One is moving at 10 m/s due east (we'll call that the +X direction) and the other is moving at 8 m/s due west (the -X direction). As you can see, the total momentum of the system is (10 * 1) + (-8 * 1) = +2 kgm/s.

Assume a perfectly elastic collision: the blocks hit and stick, moving together afterwards. In what direction and how fast are they moving? Well, the momentum hasn't changed, it's still +2 kgm/s. The new object is 2 kg, so we simply divide momentum by mass to get velocity: +1 m/s.

 

For an example of a NON-conserved property, consider kinetic energy. (What's that? Did you say "but what about that 'conservation of energy' thing? Excellent! You're absolutetly correct--total energy IS always conserved. However, in an inelastic collision, some kinetic energy is converted to heat through deformation of the colliding objects. While the total amount of energy is the same, the amount of kinetic energy changes, and if you're doing a study of motion, that's what you're concerned with)

 

Anyway, kinetic energy is equal to one-half times the mass times the square of the velocity (1/2 * m * v^2). Kinetic energy, BTW, is a scalar quantity (has no direction). The total kinetic energy in the above example before the collision is (.5 * 1 * 10^2) + (.5 * 1 * (-8)^2) = (.5 * 100) + (.5 * 64) = 82 joules. After the collision the kinetic energy is .5 * 2 * 1^2 = 1 joule. 81 joules of kinetic energy have been "lost" (converted to some other form of energy) in this collision.

 

 

So, what does all that have to do with roleplaying and emotions? Simply this: emotions are not a conserved property. You can make someone else happier without making anyone sadder.

 

In fact, if you look back at your experiences, you'll probably find that when you made someone else happier, YOU got happier, too.

 

Zeropoint

[David Johnston]

Re: Power idea: Empathic Leech (help requested statting this)

 

Well, I had some questions anyway.

 

 

 

:raises hand: I'm not familiar with this term. Can you elucidate, please?

 

 

 

Do you think a discount would be appropriate (on the cost of the dice of Transform) if the strength of the emotion wouldn't qualify for a Disadvantage?

 

Or, wait: I think I'm starting to get the hang of this.

 

A cumulative Transform with 1/2d6 or less of effect, basically one point per unit of emotion transferred (because the system doesn't let us go lower). The SFX of the emotion can be roleplayed out, up to the point where it's strong enough to qualify as a minor Disadvantage.

 

The reversion condition for the Transform is a slow fade rate.

 

Well, actually I almost immediately had second thoughts about what I'd written since it didn't seem to really give you what you wanted, which is not to give people psychological disadvantages, but just to make them stop or start being angry or sad or whatever. That's why a minute later my first response disappeared. You apparently read it in the time it took me to write my second attempt. As far as "conserved quantity" goes, someone else answered that but to make it short, "Making someone happier doesn't really mean someone else has to be sadder."

[Robyn]

Re: Power idea: Empathic Leech (help requested statting this)

 

Well' date=' actually I almost immediately had second thoughts about what I'd written since it didn't seem to really give you what you wanted, which is not to give people psychological disadvantages, but just to make them stop or start being angry or sad or whatever.[/quote']

 

Yep, that's it

 

That's why a minute later my first response disappeared. You apparently read it in the time it took me to write my second attempt.

 

I also lost the solution you had Oh well.

[incrdbil]

Re: Power idea: Empathic Leech (help requested statting this)

 

I see two mind controls with a good deal of limitations. They are linked, have to be used with each other, on seperate targets. You can't issue commands, only influence emotional states. You have a lack of control about the intensity of emotion created (or taken),which could be perhaps mitigated by some analyze skill used to assess the current emotional or psychological states of others. Both mind control attempts must inflcct the same level of command. (You make someoe be very happy, and sooneone sad. Failing to properly assess how much emotion to switch around (as judged by the margin of failuser of an alalyze skill) might mean your command instead becomes 'become hysterically happy' for one target, and the other targets becomes so depressed as to be catatonic--or you really mess things up and switch things around, and the target you rtried to cheer now has a short term command of 'hurt yourself'.

 

As to the value of thse limitations--well, being very custom, its GM consultation--but the combination of linked effects, the lack of control, the mandatory opposite effects, the need for targets to be close, it should help make a cheap power.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Power idea: Empathic Leech (help requested statting this)

 

Okay. I've been giving this concept some thought. It seems to me that there are two issues here: one is the broad issue of how to quantify "emotions" within the context of system mechanics; the other is how to construct a Power build that will allow for emotional exchanges between characters.

 

Let's start with the first one, because that's pretty fundamental. To take "emotion" beyond the realm of roleplaying and make a stat out of it, I think we need to look at how the system handles the matter and see if a consistent framework can be extracted from it. Directly modifying a character's state of mind can be achieved in four ways: through the use of Interaction Skills, application of Mind Control, making a Presence Attack, or triggering/adding Psychological Limitations. The first option is unpredictable in that it can either succeed or fail based on a single die roll, and the degree of success is largely subjective through the GM interpreting a large roll (at least until The Ultimate Skill comes out) ; so I don't think that would be a useful precedent in this case.

 

However, the other three have discreet levels of effect - the first two based on Presence and/or Ego +10, +20, +30, and the last one with Moderate, Strong and Total intensity - with suggestions as to what sort and degree of behaviors are appropriate at each level. Between them they run the gamut of encouragement or restriction of behavior: they can cause atypical actions, make people obey commands, force certain actions in certain circumstances, terrify, inspire, etc. I would say that the descriptions for what can be expected at each level of effect for these three could be used as a framework for overall emotion manipulation. (More on that shortly.)

 

Now let's consider an appropriate "delivery system" for emotion manipulation. Robyn, from your description of the character's ability it seems that there are two Powers, one for long-term effects and the other for short term. You appear to be satisfied with using a Mental Transform to impose Psychological Limitations on a character as a reflection of long-term emotional manipulation. For the short term effects either Mind Control or Presence Attack has some of what you're looking for. I would go with Mind Control since it's more precisely targeted to individual minds, and its duration is precisely defined by game mechanics. However, IMO it would be reasonable to add some of the guidelines for Presence Attacks to what can be achieved with Mind Control based on emotion manipulation, since they both use essentially the same scale of effect. (If you do pick up The Ultimate Mentalist, that book goes into more detail on how Mind Control can be used to manipulate a target's emotions.)

 

Note that in the case of both Mental Transform and Mind Control, the Powers work against Ego, and the quantity of Ego that a character has determines how much of an application of the Power is necessary to achieve a given level of effect. Since Ego is defined as a character's "mental strength and strength of will," I'd say it would be reasonable to also use it as a reflection of the relative strength of "good" and "evil" in a person, in that forcing a person to act contrary to their normal inclination, or said person overcoming their own Psych Lims, is determined by their Ego score. So, in Ego we already have a stat which can be used to quantify good and evil for game purposes; and in Transform and Mind Control we have Powers to affect Ego in quantifiable ways.

 

Robyn, assuming we're on the same page to this point , the next stage would be to define how to apply these Powers to get what you want mechanically. You've said that you want these Powers to affect two characters simultaneously, which could be either two targets, or one target plus the user of the Power. The latter case would simply require a Power with Side Effects, but the former takes a little more thought. There are four mechanisms by which multiple targets can be hit by a single Power use: the Combat Maneuvers Rapid Fire (ranged) or Sweep (hand to hand); Spreading the attack; applying the Autofire Advantage; or applying Area Of Effect. The first three have some significant CV penalties, especially if the chosen targets aren't close together, so I would recommend the last option.

 

Adding Selective Target to AOE would let you pick out the specific targets you want to affect within that area. As a GM I would probably allow a -1/2 Limitation for only being able to affect two targets in the area, and always having to affect two targets. Now, the two targets would by definition be affected in opposite ways, and that's not normally allowed for AOE Powers; but if one target must always be affected in the opposite way to the other target, I would probably allow it. Maybe call that a -0 Limitation, just for bookkeeping purposes.

 

Some other adjustments would probably be needed to this construct to fine tune it, but I would need to hear more details about how you want this to work before I volunteered anything more. This is the direction I would recommend taking, though.

[Robyn]

Re: Power idea: Empathic Leech (help requested statting this)

 

Since Ego is defined as a character's "mental strength and strength of will' date='" I'd say it would be reasonable to also use it as a reflection of the relative strength of "good" and "evil" in a person, in that forcing a person to act contrary to their normal inclination, or said person overcoming their own Psych Lims, is determined by their Ego score.[/quote']

 

I'm uneasy about such a straightforward conversion, since it's possible to strongly have both "good" and "evil" desires, with each applying to different areas (rarely coming into conflict). The "good" from one might not oppose the "evil" from another; changing this would remove the whole "specific emotions only" limitation.

 

For example, you can increase someone's Lust no matter how strong their Love is, even if Love opposes Hate, because Lust does not necessitate Hatred. Thus, if (as a hero) you drained Lust from the rapist into yourself (not being able to give it to the victim, lest she suddenly become a "willing" participant due to your own actions!), your Love for humanity wouldn't act to keep the Lust in check, or to keep you from also Lusting after the victim. It would, however, act to prevent you from raping her yourself (since that would hurt her), even if that meant you had to race away from the crime scene (leaving her alone with a rapist who had realized that rape was more about Greed for power/control and Hate than about Lust) to satisfy your Lust on a willing prostitute. Or you could try to drain the Hate and/or Greed from the rapist - with predictable results

 

Yes, the use of this power is incredibly risky! That's why I put it in the Dark Champions forum.

 

You've said that you want these Powers to affect two characters simultaneously' date=' which could be either two targets, or one target plus the user of the Power.[/quote']

 

Either, at the user's option; any two targets, the user being included in the possible candidates.

 

Adding Selective Target to AOE would let you pick out the specific targets you want to affect within that area. As a GM I would probably allow a -1/2 Limitation for only being able to affect two targets in the area' date=' and always having to affect two targets.[/quote']

 

What about for the Limitation "can only affect target to the extent other is affected"? This would ensure that the amount of emotion transferred was the same, by limiting it to . . . I'm thinking, not the amount rolled on dice, but the amount "over Ego" or "over Mental defenses" (whatever reduces Mental damage before Ego is taken into consideration) to either person.

 

Some other adjustments would probably be needed to this construct to fine tune it' date=' but I would need to hear more details about how you want this to work before I volunteered anything more. This is the direction I would recommend taking, though.[/quote']

 

Thanks I'll be very busy this weekend, and over the next week or so, but I'll definitely be putting more time into this after that.