How does Mass Combat work in FH?

[Mencelus]

I understand that this is the only Hero product with Mass Combat rules, and I am considering it since I may have a campaign that requires it soon. So, I just wondered, before I shell out the cash:

 

1. How does the Mass combat work? I'm not saying break copyright, but as much as you can, tell me the nuts and bolts.

 

2. Can it be ported into other genres/eras other than medieval fantasy, like science-fiction or, say, WWII?

 

Thanks much all - and as you can tell by the post count, I am a new guy to Hero. Just grokked the system and loving it.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: How does Mass Combat work in FH?

 

Basically, each unit is treated as a single character, with bonuses to BODY and damage based on how big it is. STUN is ignored. Rather than tallying up BODY damage, a morale roll is made based on damage sustained by the unit, with the results of that determining whether they hold fast or break.

 

The basics are easily adaptable to other genres, but some house rules are needed for things like explosive weapons and such. Overall, though, I think it's a pretty good wargame/rpg hybrid. You aren't left feeling like your character's combat skills and powers are worthless, like you often would if you tried to adapt some other wargame's rules.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: How does Mass Combat work in FH?

 

Just to elaborate slightly on the Captain's explanation: each "unit" is made up of multiple characters, but operates as a single character in terms of CV, SPD and the like. You can vary the number of characters in a unit according to your preferences, and also the scale of a game hex to accomodate action with larger or smaller units.

 

The rules also allow for the actions of individual exceptional characters (like PCs) to affect entire units.

[prestidigitator]

Re: How does Mass Combat work in FH?

 

I'll have to go over FH's rules on mass combat again myself. I have a long-standing project to develop general scalable mass combat rules for Hero. At the very basic level they will have Autofire and Area of Effect type mechanics and options, but I have a lot of ideas for other options and mechanics that I have never seen really incorporated into one set of mass combat rules.

 

Making it truly cross-genre might be difficult, as different kinds of movement and communications can make some pretty big differences in tactics. So it might wind up turning into more of a fantasy oriented system with some options for other genres. I haven't completed all of my pondering on that yet, and some of it might just have to be hashed out as I get to more of the details.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: How does Mass Combat work in FH?

 

I understand that this is the only Hero product with Mass Combat rules, and I am considering it since I may have a campaign that requires it soon. So, I just wondered, before I shell out the cash:

 

1. How does the Mass combat work? I'm not saying break copyright, but as much as you can, tell me the nuts and bolts.

 

2. Can it be ported into other genres/eras other than medieval fantasy, like science-fiction or, say, WWII?

 

Thanks much all - and as you can tell by the post count, I am a new guy to Hero. Just grokked the system and loving it.

 

A) I would encourage you to get Fantasy HERO and peruse the official Mass Combat Rules contained therein..

 

I posted up some Mass Combat Rules I wrote up back when I was part of the informal "Fantasy HERO Advisory" group credited in the beginning of FH. A few of my suggestions made it into the official version, but here is the full blown version I drummed up:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35547&highlight=Mass+Combat

[Play4Keeps]

Re: How does Mass Combat work in FH?

 

Used it once. We restored END and REC not LTE (is there a real EXPLAINATION of LTE somewhere online?).

 

Units lots smaller than standard got to go more often but only recovered post-standard-12.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: How does Mass Combat work in FH?

 

Used it once. We restored END and REC not LTE (is there a real EXPLAINATION of LTE somewhere online?).

 

Units lots smaller than standard got to go more often but only recovered post-standard-12.

 

LTE is super easy. If, in one Turn, you're burning more than twice your REC in END, you lose 1 point of LTE, which means your maximum END is (your normal maximum END) -1. If you're using more than that, you lose more LTE per Turn. If you're using more than 1/2 your REC but less than twice your REC, you still lose LTE, but you have to burn that much END over a longer period of time to lose even 1 LTE. Eventually, if you keep burning that much END, you'll get exhausted, and your temporary maximum END will be 0.

 

You have to rest for an extended period to get back LTE. You get back your REC in LTE once every 5 hours, or once a day if you never actually stop to rest.

 

For the most part, you don't have to worry about LTE, but if you're busting your butt all day (like a forced march), or exert yourself to your limits for more than a few minutes, it'll wear on you. It can be ignored most of the time, just to avoid bookkeeping; when you need it is usually pretty obvious.

[Mencelus]

Re: How does Mass Combat work in FH?

 

Hmm...some things to chew over. Looks like, then, the combat rules are heavily based on the basic combat of HERO, just making it a group instead of an individual. Do I have it?

 

For those that have used these rules, does this level of abstraction work for it? I mean, are there any breakpoints of silliness (like a squad of 10 being unable to engage a single knight or some such). Anything like that? Thanks.

 

Proabably I'll end up buying it anyway - I hear it's a good read. But I just wondered what the mass combat rules are like.

[bloomann]

Re: How does Mass Combat work in FH?

 

Hmm...some things to chew over. Looks like, then, the combat rules are heavily based on the basic combat of HERO, just making it a group instead of an individual. Do I have it?

 

For those that have used these rules, does this level of abstraction work for it? I mean, are there any breakpoints of silliness (like a squad of 10 being unable to engage a single knight or some such). Anything like that? Thanks.

 

Proabably I'll end up buying it anyway - I hear it's a good read. But I just wondered what the mass combat rules are like.

 

I have an older copy of FH and although I haven't played the mass combat it looks like, for role playing porpuses anyway, a really excellent system. They use an example of a dragon Presence attacking a group of Orcs because he's too lazy to fight, also very powerful characters could effectively take on whole units, or help with the morale of a unit. The system is rather abstract and that's good because you can cover the whole battle then zero in on individual characters, going back to normal game mechanics, to highlight specific important moments in the battle (like imagine when Aragorn and Gimili fought at the gates of helm deep).

Otherwise FH is just a great source of material for all the write ups and magic (or at least the edition I have which is like a thousand years old:D )

[Killer Shrike]

Re: How does Mass Combat work in FH?

 

The old Fantasy HERO is a molehill compared to the mountain of the new Fantasy HERO, also known as the Fantasy HERO PHONEBOOK.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: How does Mass Combat work in FH?

 

Very true , but the mass combat rules in 5E FH are essentially the same as those in that 4E version, just with a little more refinement and more options.

 

And the majority concensus on the current Fantasy HERO is: if you have any interest in fantasy games using HERO, you must buy this book!

[Captain Obvious]

Re: How does Mass Combat work in FH?

 

Hmm...some things to chew over. Looks like' date=' then, the combat rules are heavily based on the basic combat of HERO, just making it a group instead of an individual. Do I have it?[/quote']

 

Yep.

 

For those that have used these rules, does this level of abstraction work for it? I mean, are there any breakpoints of silliness (like a squad of 10 being unable to engage a single knight or some such). Anything like that? Thanks.

 

Nothing a little common sense won't handle. Going strictly by the rules, if you have enough peasants armed with rusty daggers, they can take down an iron golem, because they get damage bonuses based on numbers. However, a simple GM ruling saying that "a rusty dagger won't hurt a DEF 8 automaton no matter how many are used" will fix that right up.

 

Proabably I'll end up buying it anyway - I hear it's a good read. But I just wondered what the mass combat rules are like.

It's definitely worthwhile.

[Play4Keeps]

Re: How does Mass Combat work in FH?

 

LTE is super easy. If' date=' in one Turn, you're burning more than twice your REC in END, you lose 1 point of LTE, which means your [b']maximum END[/b] is (your normal maximum END) -1. If you're using more than that, you lose more LTE per Turn. If you're using more than 1/2 your REC but less than twice your REC, you still lose LTE, but you have to burn that much END over a longer period of time to lose even 1 LTE. Eventually, if you keep burning that much END, you'll get exhausted, and your temporary maximum END will be 0.

See this is what confused me and you cleared up. LTE temporarily reduces your END allowedment. So if my char. has 55 END on the sheet and 15 REC on the sheet and has taken 5 LTE and then fought and burned 25 END if he takes 2 post-12 Recoveries he doesn't get 30 END back because his END allowedment is 50 until he Recovers from the LTE so he's only up to 50 END.

 

Or am I still not getting it?

[Captain Obvious]

Re: How does Mass Combat work in FH?

 

See this is what confused me and you cleared up. LTE temporarily reduces your END allowedment. So if my char. has 55 END on the sheet and 15 REC on the sheet and has taken 5 LTE and then fought and burned 25 END if he takes 2 post-12 Recoveries he doesn't get 30 END back because his END allowedment is 50 until he Recovers from the LTE so he's only up to 50 END.

 

Or am I still not getting it?

 

All right, let me see. His normal max is 55 END, but he's used 5 LTE, so his current max is 50. If he burns another 25 END, he'll be down to 25 END. Assuming for the sake of simplicity that burning this much END doesn't cause him to spend more LTE, his first recovery will bring him up to 40 END. His next one will bring him up to his current max of 50. To get the last 5 points back, he'll have to rest for a while.

 

Normally, resting 5 hours will get back your REC in LTE, but since he only needs 1/3 of his REC, then resting for an hour and 40 minutes should get him fully rested once again (assuming the GM is using some common sense).

 

So, yeah, you're getting it.

[Krieghandt]

Re: How does Mass Combat work in FH?

 

The key to setting up mass combat, is to make sure the smallest unit and the largest are comparable. In the example above, how do 100 peasents attack one iron golem? So break it down to 20 man squads, and things tend to work again. Except golems dont have morale. DOH!

Krieghandt

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How does Mass Combat work in FH?

 

They've gone over the generalities of FH Mosh Combat - I'm comparatively new to HERO myself, I'm just chattier than most. Killer Shrike is a good resource, as are any of the links posted by Lord Liaden and Question Man if you need general FH information. Few things I'd cover.

 

1. Yeah, there's very few must buys out there, but FH is one of them. The book is just fantasic, and I'm more inclined to bash than praise. I have nothing bad to say about it. At all. Scary. It is on the thick side, but I'd rather have thick & complete than thin and questionable. Heck, I already have shelves of d20 books with nothing in them. FH is rock solid.

 

2. The Mosh Combat rules treat units not unlike scaled vehicles, with specific rules to handle their size, mass, movement, etc. Without breaking Copyright, I can tell you that the rules are - like the rest of HERO - easily scalable and usable. You won't have any problems going from genre to genre. Shoot, my epic fantasy campaign is built on the WW2 model. So I know from experience.

 

And you did well coming to HERO, it's the best system out there. And I say that not as the raving fan-boy I've become in the last five months, but dead honestly as someone who's been gaming their entire lives. It's a great system, usable for dern near anything.

 

And welcome to the boards! Have some rep.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: How does Mass Combat work in FH?

 

The key to setting up mass combat, is to make sure the smallest unit and the largest are comparable. In the example above, how do 100 peasents attack one iron golem? So break it down to 20 man squads, and things tend to work again. Except golems dont have morale. DOH!

Krieghandt

 

Automatons have an 11- "morale" roll. Not that they get scared, but combat messes up their formations, causing them to fight less effectively. And they're too dumb to regroup themselves.

 

100 peasants on one iron golem may be a little out there, but if you've got an epic scale battle going on, 100 peasants on a dragon isn't unreasonable. Same argument applies for daggers vs dragonscale.