WWYCD: Lost in a world without Supers; 9/11/2001

[Great Beyond]

Re: WWYCD: Lost in a world without Supers; 9/11/2001

 

You would rather have died knowing you've left billions to suffer the fate of a lingering living death forcibly twisted into a race of souless killing machines that would likely go on to kill untold more beings under the dictactes of an insane being that thought itself a God?

 

Well, that was the whole point of series 1/27 - that sometimes victory can come at too high of a price. Pulling the trigger on the Gamestation would have undone all the recovery, the survivors guilt, the trauma the Doctor had undergone - it would have meant that he learned nothing.

 

"You would make a good Dalek" was far closer to the truth that it should have been.

 

Spoilers for the end of Season 2/28 follow:

Besides, as we find out in the final episodes of series 2/28, even if the Doctor had pulled the trigger on the Gamestation, there were Daleks waiting out in their void ship escape pod. His sacrifice of 10+ billion people would have all been for nothing.

 

The Dr has killed and let people die (Ms Trampoline face or whatever she was. the last "Human" he let her die horribly, for example) so his CAK isn't total.

 

Yeah, that’s a popular misconception of the Doctor. I like the way Terrance Dicks: "he is never cruel or cowardly, and even in times of war, he is a man of peace. He never bullies his enemies, but outsmarts them."

 

But he will kill. Violence is always the method of last resort, but the Doctor will take it in the defense of himself or in the defense of others. Say what you will about Warriors of the Deep, but the Doctor trying desperately to broker peace between the humans and the aliens - and him standing amid the dead after the final battle with the line "There should have been another way. . . " speaks volumes about him.

 

(I'll point out that Cassandra was a special case - Doctor Nine was still very much damaged goods, and had lost his moral compass. Doesn’t count in my book)

 

This is the NOW' date=' the future has not been writen, it can't be until either the hero acts or doesn't act. At that point the Hero can't have an effect on a future that hasn't been writen.[/quote']

 

Well, with the weight of tampering with timeline and history taken out of the equasion, then GB proceeds full speed ahead as listed a couple of posts back.

 

Taking the time machine away from Natasha however throws a spanner in the works for her. Guess she'd have to fall back to normal methods - perhaps useing her weird science pool to make the towers desoild, or growing REALLY huge with a pillow to catch the planes with.

[nexus]

Re: WWYCD: Lost in a world without Supers; 9/11/2001

 

 

Well, that was the whole point of series 1/27 - that sometimes victory can come at too high of a price. Pulling the trigger on the Gamestation would have undone all the recovery, the survivors guilt, the trauma the Doctor had undergone - it would have meant that he learned nothing.

 

"You would make a good Dalek" was far closer to the truth that it should have been.

 

Not IMO, Letting billions suffer and die to balm his conscious in the last moments of his life seems to make him incredibly selfish. Sacrificing that part of himself for the good of the universe would not have made him a Dalek. Daleks are souless pitiless killers, not being that sacrifice for others.

 

 

Spoilers for the end of Season 2/28 follow:

Besides, as we find out in the final episodes of series 2/28, even if the Doctor had pulled the trigger on the Gamestation, there were Daleks waiting out in their void ship escape pod. His sacrifice of 10+ billion people would have all been for nothing.

[/color]

 

Meaningless regarding his choice at the time unless its also revealed that he some how knew that. Even then there would not have been billions more Daleks and billions of humans wouldn't have endured a nightmarish deaths/conversions.

 

He faced a choice: wipe out humanity and end the Dalek's threat to life forever or don't, let humanity still be snuffed out in an even more horrible fashion AND the Dalek threat grows. He couldn't muster the willpower to do what was required. I like Dr. Who but the character has failings. That's what makes him interesting and not a all powerful Mary Sue that is never wrong. Code Against Killing is a diadvantage for a reason to put it in Hero terms. He failed to over come it at the right time. It doesn't make the character less heroic but it makes him more realistic and internally consistent, IMO.

 

This is the last I'll comment on this. The thread isn't about Dr. Who after all.

[nexus]

Re: WWYCD: Lost in a world without Supers; 9/11/2001

 

 

Except unless how it was suppose to happen has a better long term benefit than then short term does. And since the Doctor had insider information, I'll trust his judgment. Besides, he managed to come up with a 4th solution, other than the options the Time Lords gave him. The Daleks constant distraction with Davros - who is now alive in the modified future - kept them from achieving their final destiny.

 

In the case of The Parting of Ways - that was a no win situation for the Doctor. Either way, the human race was dead - either gutted and filleted to be Daleks (those "lucky" enough to survive the process, that is) or dead at the hands of the Doctor. If I were him, if I were going to go, I'd rather not have had the blood of an entire world on my hands.

 

 

Well, no, I dont think they'd have stopped. However, I dont think middle east terrorism is in a position to roll a nuke into the superbowl at the moment. But that's mostly a direct response to the attacks. If the plane hijackings hadn't gone down, if various political forces hadn't come into play to deter terrorism, if the world rolled on exactly like it always had been on September 10th, then yes - they'd probably try something again. Heck, Ben Laden had been pretty vocal in his determination to hit the towers again ever since that parking garage bombing didn't do the job the first time - so 9-11 wasn't exactly a surprise to me when it rolled around.

 

So looking at the thinking (from admittedly a very small sample): first attempt = small bomb, second attempt = bigger bomb, third attempt = biggest bomb. I'd figure that the next time out of the gate, Ben Laden would really go over the top.

 

 

Again - taking action in the present is a different thing than doing so in the past. To quote a wise muppet, the future is always in motion. Free will when the outcome is not determined is fine. Messing around with the past on the other hand, is a whole 'nother ball game.

 

Actually, we could round and round with this forever so I'll just I disagree and leave it at that.

[Egyptoid]

Re: WWYCD: Lost in a world without Supers; 9/11/2001

 

This is the NOW, the future has not been writen, it can't be until either the hero acts or doesn't act. At that point the Hero can't have an effect on a future that hasn't been writen. Tossing that out as the creator of the Question?.

 

Now combine it with Groundhog Day.

 

Each and every morning you wake up in a motel room in Boston,

the radio is playing Enya: Only Time,

and the newspaper in the lobby always says 10 SEP 2001.

 

you live and relive the nightmare until you get your response correct.

[Guest daeudi_454]

Re: WWYCD: Lost in a world without Supers; 9/11/2001

 

That is pure evil.

[TheRavenIs]

Re: WWYCD: Lost in a world without Supers; 9/11/2001

 

Now combine it with Groundhog Day.

 

Each and every morning you wake up in a motel room in Boston,

the radio is playing Enya: Only Time,

and the newspaper in the lobby always says 10 SEP 2001.

 

you live and relive the nightmare until you get your response correct.

 

As the creator od this thread------I like that idea.

 

Repped Egyptoid.